Thread: Underwater Ruins deciphered

Originally Posted by AuraSoul93

But when people mention N having a part in this doesn't really make sense as well. He was said to be in a distant region, which means he's not in Unova anymore. So why leave & then come back? There must be something relating to the Tao Trio outside of Unova, unless N only comes back because the event of Black/White 2 are being caused by someone/something else & he needs to help put a stop to it since he has Reshiram/Zekrom with him.

N could return return to Unova, but then, we could also find him in the distant region. This wouldn't necessarily pertain to the Abyssal Ruins, though, especially if we assume that N has no part in the prophecy (if there is one) as he definitely did not defeat any of the dragons.

Originally Posted by Kameinu

If I recall, their creation pre-dates Relic Castle by five hundred years or so.

All we know is that the Relic Crown and other treatures were made by the civilization some 3,000 years ago.

But the writtings could very well tell of the events that led to the end of the second war. Maybe a prophecy of sorts for then. King ends the reign of the twin heroes family and starts a new reign, which the Harmonia lineage comes from. The people of the war era could've been aware of the writtings.

That war ended with neither side winning, Unova being destroyed, and Reshiram and Zekrom "dying". I don't see how the writings could be a reference to that event.

I'm glad to see this got deciphered! Just another example of how Pokemon appears very simplistic on the surface, but has a lot of deep, meaningful stuff going on when you really look.

I noticed some people said that this could be referring to N, but they were shot down because, obviously, N wasn't alive at the time of this writing. But since we have to assume quite a lot in order to give meaning to this message, what if we assumed that this was written as a prophecy? Then it could mean that this message is indeed about N (or the player character).

Things I want to mention, though.

King turns 2nd corner.
King turns 3rd corner.
King turns 5th corner.
King turns 7th corner.

These corners are actual corners in the Abyssal Ruins, but they can also be seen as "landmarks" in the player's adventure.

2nd Corner: After the 2nd badge, you take the Skyarrow Bridge to the main section of Unova. This is a major moment in the game for yourself, and for the series as a whole, as some people would think, due to the overall amazingness of the bridge's expanse, and the dynamic camera angles never before used in a Pokemon game.

3rd Corner: Facing Team Plasma in Castelia City/Liberty Garden (after/before 3rd badge).

5th Corner: Facing Team Plasma and Zinzolin in Cold Storage (after/before 5th badge).

7th Corner: N in Dragonspiral Tower (after/before 7th badge).

Not all cities/badges had events like this happen, so despite the fact that there are obviously more events than this, it could have some meaning (again, it's all based on assumption, since there's really no concrete evidence on anything except the translation).

King defeated ③/④ alone.
④/③ joined King in a day.
King called ⑤ beings.
King is hope and future.
The great King ⑥.

Going back to thinking this is a prophecy about N, 3 could be "humans" (or the player character). N would probably not have used the word "alone" because of how he feels about Pokemon, but he would have released his Pokemon afterward. 4 could be "Pokemon," seeing as how they're mysterious (and the symbol looks like an Unown, and Unown is said to be one of the original Pokemon). I do believe that 5 looks like a fish, and I think it may mean "all living creatures," because all life began from the sea (primordial soup).

I think that symbol 6 looks like a bunny. There's really no other way for me to put it. My next theory regarding what it could mean really only works if this is message really is a prophecy about N (and totally falls apart if it isn't, but it doesn't hurt to share!): reading this article on some of the symbolism of rabbits, I gathered that they can represent the Earth, prey/sacrificial qualities, and joy.

Earth = nature, natural. N's real name is Natural (this is really grabbing at straws, but again, why not make mention of it? At this point, everyone's theories are just grabbing at straws, but they all have some merit to them)
Prey = N has been attacked for his odd behavior (Cheren: You talk too fast you're a weirdo I don't want to get on the ferriswheel with you), and attacked directly by Ghetsis (brainwashing, mental/verbal/maybe even physical abuse).
Sacrifice = N is willing to give up his OWN Pokemon (his best friends) so that no one can hurt them any more (unless you read the 3/4 prophecy, in which N may have joined the Pokemon afterwards).
Joy = I dunno, N seems really happy when he's around Pokemon (perhaps TOO happy... >.>)

So symbol 6 bunny is N?

Well that would be funny c:

But yeah, there's my take on it. Feel free to attack me for it, I understand I'm grabbing at straws, but I see no concrete evidence for anyone's theories at this point, despite the sense they all make.

Originally Posted by RedSapphire

I'm glad to see this got deciphered!

Just for the record, this was deciphered by Japanese fans not long after Black and White's release.

I noticed some people said that this could be referring to N, but they were shot down because, obviously, N wasn't alive at the time of this writing. But since we have to assume quite a lot in order to give meaning to this message, what if we assumed that this was written as a prophecy? Then it could mean that this message is indeed about N (or the player character).

A lot of possibilities have been considered since I posted this thread. But I have personally never dismissed the N theory because it would require a prophecy, but rather because N didn't defeat any of the dragons, which the King clearly did. So if anything, it is easier to believe that the prophecy is about Hilbert/Hilda. I recommend reading the more recent posts.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Originally Posted by RedSapphire

I'm glad to see this got deciphered!

Just for the record, this was deciphered by Japanese fans not long after Black and White's release.

Once the games were released in Japan, I tried to keep myself un-spoiled as much as possible. Once they were released everywhere else, I was too busy playing and trying to think things up for myself to look this up ^^ I didn't know they had been deciphered, I apologize for that.

I noticed some people said that this could be referring to N, but they were shot down because, obviously, N wasn't alive at the time of this writing. But since we have to assume quite a lot in order to give meaning to this message, what if we assumed that this was written as a prophecy? Then it could mean that this message is indeed about N (or the player character).

A lot of possibilities have been considered since I posted this thread. But I have personally never dismissed the N theory because it would require a prophecy, but rather because N didn't defeat any of the dragons, which the King clearly did. So if anything, it is easier to believe that the prophecy is about Hilbert/Hilda. I recommend reading the more recent posts.

I never said it was you personally that shot them down, just that they had been shot down for various reasons. Yes, N didn't defeat any dragons, but what makes it so clear that the King did? Are you referring to something mentioned in the game, or is that from a theory on this message? Because when I personally read through the message, I didn't see anything that seemed to mean that a dragon was being defeated. Others may believe otherwise, but I personally don't see it.

Originally Posted by RedSapphire

I didn't know they had been deciphered, I apologize for that.

No need to apologize.

I never said it was you personally that shot them down, just that they had been shot down for various reasons. Yes, N didn't defeat any dragons, but what makes it so clear that the King did? Are you referring to something mentioned in the game, or is that from a theory on this message? Because when I personally read through the message, I didn't see anything that seemed to mean that a dragon was being defeated. Others may believe otherwise, but I personally don't see it.

King defeated ③/④ alone.
④/③ joined King in a day.

3 and 4 are interchangeable depending on the version, which means that the hidden characters refer to version-dependent characters. The only likely possibilities are Reshiram/Zekrom and Tornadus/Thundurus, and most of us find the former option more likely.

Originally Posted by Silktree

3 and 4 are interchangeable depending on the version, which means that the hidden characters refer to version-dependent characters. The only likely possibilities are Reshiram/Zekrom and Thundurus/Tornadus, and most of us find the former option more likely.

That does make sense, I will admit that 3 looking like a human can represent "truth" and 4 looking like an otherwordly (and possibly powerful/knowledgable) being can represent "ideals" in that sense, but does it have to be version-specific Pokemon that those symbols represent? The only reason why I thought them to be "people" and "Pokemon" is because I didn't realize they were confined to representing version-specific characters.

Originally Posted by RedSapphire

That does make sense, I will admit that 3 looking like a human can represent "truth" and 4 looking like an otherwordly (and possibly powerful/knowledgable) being can represent "ideals" in that sense, but does it have to be version-specific Pokemon that those symbols represent? The only reason why I thought them to be "people" and "Pokemon" is because I didn't realize they were confined to representing version-specific characters.

Don't put too much thought into the character shapes. The other characters just represent ABC letters that aren't even used consistently between the ruins' floors, so they had to be deciphered essentially by elimination and by trying to form coherent English sentences.

but does it have to be version-specific Pokemon that those symbols represent?

I would say that it has to be something that depends on the version, and only the version-exclusive legendaries would make sense.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Don't put too much thought into the character shapes. The other characters just represent ABC letters that aren't even used consistently between the ruins' floors, so they had to be deciphered essentially by elimination and by trying to form coherent English sentences.


I would say that it has to be something that depends on the version, and only the version-exclusive legendaries would make sense.

That makes sense, but those other symbols were letters, and letters don't have to really look like anything...granted, the other symbols don't have to, either, but it doesn't hurt to keep all options open.

If it had to be version-exclusive, then yes, the legendaries would make sense. But I don't see anything stopping those symbols from meaning "Gothitelle" and "Reuniclus" due to their immense Psychic powers (combined with the lack of actual evidence to back any claims up, of course). But now I'm curious...if 3 and 4 would be Reshiram and Zekrom, I'm assuming 5 would be Kyurem?

Also, the order makes it seem like the King defeated one dragon without the help of the other (as he received his dragon afterward). That seems a bit odd to me, as the PCs caught their dragon first. So that leads me to ask: is the order of this "translation" interchangeable, or is this the set order the lines appear in?

Originally Posted by RedSapphire

But I don't see anything stopping those symbols from meaning "Gothitelle" and "Reuniclus" due to their immense Psychic powers (combined with the lack of actual evidence to back any claims up, of course).

We may just be theorizing, but common sense dictates that Game Freak wouldn't have gone to all that trouble to create a random tale about Gothitelle and Reuniclus.

But now I'm curious...if 3 and 4 would be Reshiram and Zekrom, I'm assuming 5 would be Kyurem?

The king called 5 "beings", so it has to be plural. It might be the Kyurem Formes, the Tao trio (possibly in their unified state), or even Pokémon in general.

That seems a bit odd to me, as the PCs caught their dragon first. So that leads me to ask: is the order of this "translation" interchangeable, or is this the set order the lines appear in?

Yes, Green Zubat brought that up in my blog. One possible explanation is that Hilbert/Hilda was prepared to take on N without the second dragon's help, and indeed, at first it really seemed that the dragon wouldn't be resurrected. Prophecies don't have to be accurate, either. I still think that that if this is a prophecy, it is much more likely to be referencing Hilbert/Hilda than N.

But again, the recent discussion is about the possibility that there really was a King who lived in an era before the twin heroes. That theory assumes that there is more to Zekrom and Reshiram's history than we currently know, but it's certainly worth discussing.

Originally Posted by Silktree

That war ended with neither side winning, Unova being destroyed, and Reshiram and Zekrom "dying". I don't see how the writings could be a reference to that event.

King defeating both sides was what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by Kameinu

King defeating both sides was what I was getting at.

But one of the dragons joined the king. Besides:

The twin heroes, too, could not find either to be right in their struggle... So the struggle was ended...
Iris: And yet, yet, yet... the hero's sons began to struggle again...
So Zekrom and Reshiram used their lightning and flames to eradicate Unova in an instant...
But if people hadn't been mistaken about how to get along with Pokémon, the world wouldn't have been destroyed!
So Zekrom and Reshiram did their best for everyone and made a new land!
And so so so...!

Nothing was saved, and so Zekrom and Reshiram had to begin anew after they had apparently settled their differences. I really don't see how the King could be involved here, seeing as the outcome was fairly dismal, and it would seem that none of the dragons was defeated. But while we're on the subject, it seems that the dragons didn't side with the twin heroes' sons, but rather they punished the sons (and everyone else) for needlessly continuing the previous war; I've never seen that point being raised.

Originally Posted by AuraSoul93

I don't see why Kyurem merging w/ just one of the other two dragons makes it "complete". If Kyurem truly was the Original Dragon that split into Reshiram & Zekrom then Kyurem would need both components to be complete. I do like the idea that Kyurem is the soulless body & Reshiram & Zekrom are its' spirit. But when people mention N having a part in this doesn't really make sense as well. He was said to be in a distant region, which means he's not in Unova anymore. So why leave & then come back? There must be something relating to the Tao Trio outside of Unova, unless N only comes back because the event of Black/White 2 are being caused by someone/something else & he needs to help put a stop to it since he has Reshiram/Zekrom with him.

Thats because at this point Kyurem likely isn't the Original Dragon of Unova. It can't seem to hold both energies at once, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered giving it two formes. All Kyurem seems to do is borrow their energy and take on their traits.

He could still be a part of what makes up the "true" Unova Dragon though. As for N, he will definitely have a role to play in the sequels. We will either follow him to a new place, or he will simply return. I bet that he is related to the ancient King in the Ruins if he ever existed.

It's time to revive this thread once more in light of a new discovery. As proposed by smallady, there may be a common link between N's Puzzle Cube, the original dragon and the Abyssal Ruins. Let me just reiterate from my previous post the translation of Game Freak's notes:

Originally Posted by Silktree

The highlight of the notes is: "In the middle, a TV broadcasting some sort of Pokémon?" To further this impression, the key is also referred to as a button. Finally, there is also a note about six colors, akin to those of the Rubik's Cube, where the "ornamentation is a motif in the shape of something meaningful". The object's official name is "N's Puzzle Cube"; the notes don't mention a Void Cube, let alone a Menger sponge.

The theory that smallady and I are going with right now is that the Puzzle Cube projects the original dragon from the past. This might be the only way for the dragon to manifest itself in any era after its split, or perhaps the projection is supposed to reveal how Reshiram and Zekrom (and Kyurem?) can become as one again. In either case, this changes the interpretation of the Abyssal Ruins. Recently in this thread, it has been been considered that the Tao trio have been splitting and fusing since before the twin heroes even came into the picture. Although the theory has its merits, the probable link to the Puzzle Cube makes me reconsider the prophecy theory.

Now I'll continue my discussion with smallady in this thread. I think it's the best place for it.

Originally Posted by smallady

Initially I dismissed the possibility of it being the original dragon (Reshiram + Zekrom), but what if this Void Cube is acting as a time capsule? Maybe the people of the Abyssal Ruins found a way to seal the original dragon inside this Void Cube. But if this were true, then Reshiram and Zekrom wouldn't be around in the present time. So maybe this Void Cube is from an alternate timeline, one in which the people of the Abyssal Ruins wanted to avoid having the original dragon being split into two after foretelling their prophecy. Ahhhh I hate getting Timey Wimey stuff involved, though. It would be so difficult to execute this elegantly in the plot. I don't want it to end up a mess like Final Fantasy XIII-2 ended up being. The concept of alternate universes is probably better, given that they've already introduced this with the Entralink. So then, perhaps the people of the Abyssal Ruins sent this to the in-game universe we currently experience; one where the split of the original dragon was not prevented. And the Void Cube is not essentially a time capsule, but just an extremely rare, ancient type of Poke Ball.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Your Abyssal Ruins theory assumes that there was no king in ancient times and that the story is a prophecy about Reshiram and Zekrom one day being split. Certainly, this is possible, but when we start accounting for a universe split, we should remember that the Abyssal Ruins' text changes depending on the universe (version). More importantly, whoever wrote the messages definitely wanted the prophecy to come true judging by their reverence toward the king. So I would say that under the prophecy assumption, the Abyssal Ruins civilization did not try to prevent the split at all, and in a way they caused the split by writing down not one prophecy but two.

Perhaps the Puzzle Cube is indeed an elaborate Time Capsule that will make it possible for the Original Dragon to exist despite the split. Since it doesn't seem that Kyurem will actually fuse with either Reshiram or Zekrom, I have doubts that the split can be undone. The Puzzle Cube may be the only way to bring forth the original dragon (by projecting its past image), at least in these games.

Originally Posted by smallady

So they wanted this prophecy to come true? I always assumed they didn't want the split to occur. Then why would they have a projection of the original dragon sealed away in the Puzzle Cube?

Let's remember that the key element of the Abyssal Ruins is the king rather than any of the dragons (technically, we don't know for a fact that the dragons are relevant). Regardless of whether or not they wanted the split to occur (they probably only foresaw it), if they lived in an era when the original dragon existed and the king did not, it would make sense for them to ensure that said dragon would meet the king one day. Could they have prevented the split? Not without affecting the final prophecy.

I think that the Abyssal Ruins civilization refrained from establishing Unova as a kingdom because they yearned for a leader, a messiah of sorts, who did not come. The original dragon itself was not enough - it needed to be complemented by a human partner. There is probably a reason why the Abyssal Ruins were built next to the sea; the civilization did not believe they had the right to enter the rest of the unoccupied land without a proper leader. On the other hand, the Dragonspiral Tower was built in the west since the original dragon, which was born there, did have a right to the land. I believe that the civilization foresaw the arrival of the twin heroes and the creation of Unova as a kingdom, but they dreaded that day because they knew that it would lead to the split, the two wars and Unova's destruction.

Could they have prevented the twin heroes' doings? Had they not built the Dragonspiral Tower, the original dragon might have never existed, so I would say that they knew what would happen and yet they embraced that fate. Perhaps the civilization didn't feel entitled to live in Unova, but they knew that the king would be born there well into the future, and for that to happen the twin heroes had to be considered temporary kings. More to the point, the split might have been the only way for the prophecy involving the king to come true.

King defeated ③/④ alone.
④/③ joined King in a day.

Unlike the twin heroes, the true king has to prove himself before the original dragon by not only defeating it but also befriending it. The twin heroes did one or the other, but not both things for the simple reason that the original dragon was a single entity. Now, in Black and White, both N and Hilbert/Hilda had been accompanied by the respective dragons before the final battle took place. It could be argued that Hilbert/Hilda came very close to facing N's dragon alone (that is, without a legendary partner of their own), but that didn't happen. This was an intervention, or perhaps the time was not right yet.

What if in the new games, either N or the player character did have to defeat Black/White Kyurem alone? That could mean more than one just one thing: They might not have a legendary partner or they might not have their old Pokémon (if Hilbert/Hilda were the player character again), or possibly, the final battle would have the king outwitting Kyurem completely by themselves. Then after that, the second dragon would join the king, most likely through Kyurem.

King called ⑤ beings.
King is hope and future.
The great King ⑥.

Now this takes us to N's Puzzle Cube and to the completion of the prophecy. With a king finally chosen, the split will have served its purpose. Will there be a way to undo the split? Not necessarily. After all, Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem in its three forms shouldn't be erased from history; there was a reason for their existence. I think the Abyssal Ruins civilization (well, Game Freak really) might have had a cleverer solution in mind, which is why they needed the Puzzle Cube. What does a "TV broadcasting some sort of Pokémon" mean, exactly? No doubt it is not any normal TV, so it shouldn't bother us that a TV existed 3,000 years ago.

I think that the TV is supposed to project the past or the intermingled state of the two universes, or perhaps both. That is not to say that things will go back to the way they were, or that the two states of Unova will be merged. The projection would simply show what would happen if the original dragon were to exist again, and that might be as real as reality itself. Quite possibly, the original dragon would be projected onto one or more of the dragons to make its presence convincing, but I'd argue that not even that would be necessary. These would be gameplay technicalities; as far as as the story is concerned, the prophecy will have been completed with the king calling the original dragon in its many states "beings".

Will the people who foresaw all this be there to see it? Their descendants may, especially if it turns out that two of them are Anthea and Concordia and that they were the ones who gave N the Puzzle Cube.

Oooo okay, this was very informative!

First of all, I assumed that the Abyssal Ruins civilation already had their king, and that the prophecy just referred to a reincarnation of the original king. But now I see that they never had a king. So that's why they wanted the split to occur, even if it would result in many conflicts. I guess they were sort of fatalistic in that sense. It's also the reason for having the Puzzle Cube contain a projection of the original dragon. So my alternate universe/timeline theory doesn't really make sense anymore.

I agree that Hilbert/Hilda came very close to not awakening Reshiram/Zekrom, and have it awaken last-minute seemed very much like an intervention. I wonder if this intervention was caused by some unseen third party.

As for the Puzzle Cube, I don't think they mean a literal TV, just the image of one. I think the projection could likened to something like a vision or even an astral projection (the soul of the original dragon?).

I guess the only question I have left is how Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem are all related. Was Kyurem a result of the split, as well? If it was, then the split truly cannot be undone, seeing as Kyurem can only fuse with either Reshiram or Zekrom, and not both at the same time. I'm a little confused because the legends about the twin heroes in B/W don't mention Kyurem at all. It's only mentioned that Reshiram and Zekrom were once one being. I'm guessing they made little mention of Kyurem on purpose so they could flesh it out in the sequels. But, seeing as this probably isn't a simple third version retcon of the B/W plot, why was Kyurem tucked away in the Giant Chasm cave? A few weeks ago, before they announced the sequels, I made a post about the mystery of Kyurem (mostly about its possible connection to Ghetsis, though) here in the Placeholder for Kyurem Forme thread. I posted under the assumption we were still getting a third version, but I still hope that they will shed some light on Kyurem's past.

I think that Kyurem is still the vestiges or remains of the Original Dragon, in almost the same sense that Resh/Zek are part of the Original Dragon. However, I believe now the reason why Kyurem is so weak in comparison to the other Dragons and forgotten, is simply because there was no "hero" representing it. There was only Truth/Ideals, but there was no sibling to represent the third option, Dreams.

Drayden: "Pokémon and people do not age because of the passage of time. They get old when the energy flowing in their hearts dries up. This energy in our hearts is powered by truth, ideals, or maybe dreams... That probably changes with what you most hope for in your life."

So in essence Kyurem is nothing, as no one represented him so Kyurem can only become Ideals (Black Kyurem) or Truths (White Kyurem). This also shows that indeed the split between the Dragons has only occured once in history. The Original Dragon will likely carry the theme of Dreams.

As for N's Puzzle, it most likely carries the Original Dragon's image, likely as a reminder of what the 3 Dragons once were. If the ancient civilization felt a need to hold a memory of the dragon to serve a purpose or reminder to a future generation, then its very plausible that the Ruins are a prophecy and that they didn't want the Dragon's split but somehow foresaw it in the future.

I think that it will activate some kind of event, perhaps once seeing how they use to be, the Tao Trio will remember and merge once again into one Dragon. Its possible that they may have forgotten what their own original state was, and may also need a reminder of that just like the humans.