Thread: Underwater Ruins deciphered

It was annoying when I couldn't find out what those signs mean or say. I get mad when theres basically no answe for something, like Digletts feet.

Originally Posted by Digizel

Following the assumption that they can combine themselves (or rather, to be more accurate, Kyurem can "absorb" them), I think it's perfectly plausible for them to have originated as one, split into two for some unknown reason, combined into one again during the King's rule, and then separated once again via the events following the twin heroes. Perhaps B/W 2 could follow this cycle, by having Kyurem trying to re-combine themselves once more?

This has occurred to me, too, which is why I am more uncertain about the prophecy theory than I was before. It is possible that the twin heroes did not make the original dragon split for the very first time; there may have been a cycle of unification and separation ever since the original dragon was born.

And to answer a question above, I personally believe that ⑤ represents the combined form of the three Tao dragons.

So the theory is that once the King had defeated one dragon and befriended the other, their war was over and they were able to return to their common root. In that case, the twin heroes reversed the King's accomplishment.

This gives us an alternative theory to the prophecy one, and yet the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. The Abyssal Ruins may be telling us that the original dragon needs to return - that Hilbert/Hilda's actions in Black and White were not enough.

Originally Posted by Silktree

So the theory is that once the King had defeated one dragon and befriended the other, their war was over and they were able to return to their common root. In that case, the twin heroes reversed the King's accomplishment.

Yes, I believe this to be exactly the situation. Imagine this: What if the two heroes are the King's descendants? They develop opposing ideals, throwing the land into a state of chaos, causing true Kyurem (a being of peace and enlightenment) to split into its opposing forms.

Originally Posted by Silktree

The Abyssal Ruins may be telling us that the original dragon needs to return - that Hilbert/Hilda's actions in Black and White were not enough.

I quite agree with this. Simply settling the dispute between the two Dragon Pokemon was clearly not enough. I believe it is now up to a descendant of the King to re-unite the three parts to its proper form, in order for the universal balance to be properly maintained.

...The part about needing the descendant is mere speculation of course. I imagine either N, Black/White (I prefer to call Hilbert and Hilda by these names...as they don't sound...terrible. xD) or possibly even Ghetsis can have a claim to be of relation to the King.

Originally Posted by Digizel

Yes, I believe this to be exactly the situation. Imagine this: What if the two heroes are the King's descendants?

I doubt it, mostly because of the 500-year gap between the Abyssal Ruins and Relic Castle civilizations. More importantly, the twin heroes were said to have created Unova, and even though that can't be accurate in the literal sense, it probably indicates that the previous civilization was gone. Finally, Ghetsis, Drayden and Iris mentioned the twin heroes but not the King, which would be odd if they were directly related. It would seem that even the people who know about the twin heroes don't know about the King, so at the very least the twin heroes lost sight of their family's history and were vain enough to think they started it all.

I believe it is now up to a descendant of the King to re-unite the three parts to its proper form, in order for the universal balance to be properly maintained.

I think there is a chance that Hilbert/Hilda will be the player characters again. It would actually be somewhat disappointing if the Abyssal Ruins turned out to be telling us that Hilbert/Hilda is not as heroic as the King was.

Originally Posted by Silktree

I doubt it, mostly because of the 500-year gap between the Abyssal Ruins and Relic Castle civilizations. More importantly, the twin heroes were said to have created Unova, and even though that can't be accurate in the literal sense, it probably indicates that the previous civilization was gone. Finally, Ghetsis, Drayden and Iris mentioned the twin heroes but not the King, which would be odd if they were directly related. It would seem that even the people who know about the twin heroes don't know about the King.

I admit the descendants thing was a bit of a stretch, however, I do believe there is merit to the idea that Kyurem was split once again due to human turmoil. After all, Kyurem is based on the Taoist principle that stillness and calm are the means to reach enlightenment. You must also keep in mind that they are SAID to have created Unova. This is still nothing but an urban legend with no real factual basis. It could very well be made to purposely mislead.

For Drayden and Iris, the Abyssal Ruin civilization has long since been destroyed. There's no telling what kinds of ancient tales were lost as a result. Second, about Ghetsis...well, just because he didn't say anything doesn't mean he still can't be related. I mean, you don't want to give out all of your information at once. Revealing your whole hand to the enemy is a very dangerous gambit. One that a person so obsessed with perfection would likely not risk. He could even be hiding this information from N, who might in fact be a descendant of the King (as he is merely an adopted child into the Harmonia family.)

I think there is a chance that Hilbert/Hilda will be the player characters again. It would actually be somewhat disappointing if the Abyssal Ruins turned out to be telling us that Hilbert/Hilda is not as heroic as the King was.

It's possible, but then that creates the discrepancy about him not having any of his Pokemon, among other things. I assume it's going to play out in the formula of other Pokemon games, where you have a new character going around gathering the Gym Badges while unlocking the story. I believe the most logical thing to do would be to have a new character altogether, and perhaps Bianca could assist him/her with getting started.

Just because Black/White's actions weren't everything that needed to be done doesn't mean they're not as heroic. Consider that they might have had a more pressing matter to deal with. For example, what if they left to track down N and his partner Dragon? (They may even set up a role similar to that of Red in the Johto games...I'd think it's possible, at the least)

Originally Posted by Digizel

You must also keep in mind that they are SAID to have created Unova. This is still nothing but an urban legend with no real factual basis. It could very well be made to purposely mislead.

I doubt they created Unova, but the legend probably means that they believed they had. I would imagine that they found the unified dragon and assumed that they were the first people to become its partners. If they were the King's descendants, that would be a bit too ironic even if hundreds of years had passed.

But personally, I don't think it matters if anyone is the King's or the twin heroes' descendant; I find that to be a contrived way of history repeating itself. Unless the King had superhuman powers (which you could argue might have been the case), then anyone should have the potential of accomplishing as much as he did. But I agree that Ghetsis might believe that his own ancestors from the Harmonia family were involved with Unova's foundation. This is actually one of the reasons I'd rather Hilbert/Hilda be an ordinary person who didn't come from any royal family; it would make Ghetsis' defeat all the more painful to his pride.

Just because Black/White's actions weren't everything that needed to be done doesn't mean they're not as heroic. Consider that they might have had a more pressing matter to deal with. For example, what if they left to track down N and his partner Dragon? (They may even set up a role similar to that of Red in the Johto games...I'd think it's possible, at the least)

They can definitely be replaced and yet still have an important role. But in Generation II, Red's accomplishments were described as a very big deal, whereas in this case it would feel a bit wrong for Hilbert/Hilda to be downplayed due to not going as far as the King had gone. I am not bothered by the idea of new protagonists, but by the thought that there need to be two heroes in the modern day to replicate the King's feats from 3,000 years ago. This is just my opinion, of course.

Originally Posted by Digizel

I believe that the recent revalation of Black and White 2 has given light to one very important detail: That Kyurem is the corpse of Reshiram and Zekrom's combined form.

Thats probably the only thing that I disagree with, at least in context with your post. I still somewhat believe that Kyurem could be the broken body, or rather the remains of the Original Dragon, while Reshiram/Zekrom would be its spirit.

But if Kyurem had yet another forme then it would have already been introduced as opposed to the two dual ones that we have. That leads me to believe that while Kyurem may have been physically part of the Original Dragon, it is not the Original Dragon itself. I think that Kyurem true role lies in his spiecies name: the Boundary Pokemon. As crazy as this might sound, I believe that Kyurem is crucial in recombining Reshiram/Zekrom, by acting as a sort of glue so to speak that unites them together.

I believe this, because if Reshiram/Zekrom could simply recombine without Kyurem's help, then theres not much point to Kyurem's involvement at all. The sequels would have simply had us recombine our captured legendary dragon with N's and that would be the end of it. We would be seeing the original dragon now instead of Kyurem formes. I think that Kyurem fusing himself with one of the dragons acts as a halfway point, between the separated state and the eventual united state of the Original Dragon, hence fulfilling its role as the Boundary Pokemon.

Thats just what I think anyways, I'm really liking the speculation that Unova won't be complete without the restoration of the Original Dragon.

I don't think that Kyurem is the Original Dragon, either. But perhaps the king needed to find Kyurem to restore the Yin and Yang balance. Have the Tao trio been caught up in a loop of splitting and fusing?

I do wonder if it is possible that the Original Dragon will end up in these games. I can only see that happening through a hidden event (hopefully involving the Abyssal Ruins), or else it wouldn't make sense for the Kyurem Formes to be the version mascots.

Originally Posted by Silktree

I do wonder if it is possible that the Original Dragon will end up in these games. I can only see that happening through a hidden event (hopefully involving the Abyssal Ruins), or else it wouldn't make sense for the Kyurem Formes to be the version mascots.

Could they program another Pokemon (650#?) into BW2? Introducing another Pokemon into a generation hasn't been done before, not even for Arceus but Arceus wasn't central to the games's plot either, at least not like the Original Dragon is.

I also just had a thought about the myth, if the King needed to restore the balance like you said, then he would indeed likely be using Kyurem. Just as an example:

King defeated ③Reshiram/④Zekrom alone.
④Zekrom/③Reshiram joined King in a day. (the fusion taking place between Kyurem & the Dragons)
King called ⑤ beings. (The fusion of Kyurem and the dragons: White Kyurem/Black Kyurem)
King is hope and future.
The great King ⑥.

This actually does make sense, as it would explain why one dragon is defeated, why the other one joined, and why they are called beings ie hybrids of more than one Pokemon. If this scenario is true then that would make the ruins both a prophecy to fulfill and a recording of past events.

In any case, if true it tells us of the unification process of the dragons while the twin hero myth tells of the separation process.

Originally Posted by El_

Could they program another Pokemon (650#?) into BW2? Introducing another Pokemon into a generation hasn't been done before, not even for Arceus but Arceus wasn't central to the games's plot either, at least not like the Original Dragon is.

It's definitely possible, although it would mean not even allowing the Original Dragon to be used in local wireless battles against Black/White players. Granted, it would be a bit odd for the Original Dragon to be exclusive to the new games when Keldeo, Meloetta and more importantly Genesect are not, but perhaps Game Freak wanted to have one surprise up their sleeves. One would think that compatibility with Black and White would involve a Time Capsule of some kind; if that is the case, it could be explained that the Original Dragon cannot be sent to an era when the Tao trio were separate. It is safe to assume that Black/White Kyurem will be able to split into Zekrom/Reshiram and Kyurem to accommodate compatibility, but how many people will really want to send them to Black and White?

This actually does make sense, as it would explain why one dragon is defeated, why the other one joined, and why they are called beings ie hybrids of more than one Pokemon. If this scenario is true then that would make the ruins both a prophecy to fulfill and a recording of past events.

Do you think that Black and White Kyurem existed in the past, or will this be the first time for Kyurem to merge with Zekrom and Reshiram separately? It is unclear why the fusion won't involve all three members of the Tao trio. The King must have been able to make Reshiram and Zekrom exist as one, as that was their state when the twin heroes found them.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Do you think that Black and White Kyurem existed in the past, or will this be the first time for Kyurem to merge with Zekrom and Reshiram separately? It is unclear why the fusion won't involve all three members of the Tao trio. The King must have been able to make Reshiram and Zekrom exist as one, as that was their state when the twin heroes found them.

Its possible. I think that there needs to be some kind of middle ground first, before a complete fusion can take place. I think the reason that the Kyurem formes are introduced is to throw a little 'grey' into the mix of Black/White, before they can be properly mixed together.

If the king had another method aside from Kyurem, its probably lost by now, or likely won't be used by the PC. I imagine that it could be related to N's ability though.

I had a thought that the event that recreates the Original Dragon might be somewhat similar to the Sinjou Ruins event. Like there being 3 panels for each dragon and by having all 3 in your party would cause for the option to merge them back into one, conversely you could separate them if you wanted. This would be somewhat the opposite of that event in a way as its the dragons that make the trio master (Original Dragon) as opposed to the trio master creating the dragons (Arceus). Hopefully something like this takes place in the sequels, as if not we won't get complete answers until another generation.

Originally Posted by El_

Hopefully something like this takes place in the sequels, as if not we won't get complete answers until another generation.

Indeed. While I expect the next generation to be released in 2013, I doubt that the next region will be related to Unova seeing as we have already sequels for that region (which is more than you can say for Johto, Hoenn and Sinnoh). It would only be appropriate to wrap up the Unova myths in this generation.

Before things go off track:

The broken-Kyurem theory and the Zek/Resh spirit theory makes a lot of sense. After all, when combined (in whatever way), Kyurem is completed (albeit imperfectly, belying the lack of symmetry) when mixed with Zek/Resh. Think here: the two original mascots maintain a very compact form, like a spirit, until brought in conjunction with the proper Trainer partner. Seems to me Zek/Resh can't even exist in a "real" form with companionship. Makes sense that they are individually incomplete, separated parts of the original being that is Kyurem.

Either way, at least the mystery of the underwater ruins provides a template (however ambiguous) for what can be gleaned from the possible storyline present in B2W2. Only time will tell, and I hope GF decides to explain the ruins in these upcoming games.

Originally Posted by El_

Originally Posted by Digizel

I believe that the recent revalation of Black and White 2 has given light to one very important detail: That Kyurem is the corpse of Reshiram and Zekrom's combined form.

Thats probably the only thing that I disagree with, at least in context with your post. I still somewhat believe that Kyurem could be the broken body, or rather the remains of the Original Dragon, while Reshiram/Zekrom would be its spirit.

But if Kyurem had yet another forme then it would have already been introduced as opposed to the two dual ones that we have. That leads me to believe that while Kyurem may have been physically part of the Original Dragon, it is not the Original Dragon itself. I think that Kyurem true role lies in his spiecies name: the Boundary Pokemon. As crazy as this might sound, I believe that Kyurem is crucial in recombining Reshiram/Zekrom, by acting as a sort of glue so to speak that unites them together.

I believe this, because if Reshiram/Zekrom could simply recombine without Kyurem's help, then theres not much point to Kyurem's involvement at all. The sequels would have simply had us recombine our captured legendary dragon with N's and that would be the end of it. We would be seeing the original dragon now instead of Kyurem formes. I think that Kyurem fusing himself with one of the dragons acts as a halfway point, between the separated state and the eventual united state of the Original Dragon, hence fulfilling its role as the Boundary Pokemon.

Thats just what I think anyways, I'm really liking the speculation that Unova won't be complete without the restoration of the Original Dragon.

I don't see why Kyurem merging w/ just one of the other two dragons makes it "complete". If Kyurem truly was the Original Dragon that split into Reshiram & Zekrom then Kyurem would need both components to be complete. I do like the idea that Kyurem is the soulless body & Reshiram & Zekrom are its' spirit. But when people mention N having a part in this doesn't really make sense as well. He was said to be in a distant region, which means he's not in Unova anymore. So why leave & then come back? There must be something relating to the Tao Trio outside of Unova, unless N only comes back because the event of Black/White 2 are being caused by someone/something else & he needs to help put a stop to it since he has Reshiram/Zekrom with him.

Has it been said how long ago the ruins sank? If I recall, their creation pre-dates Relic Castle by five hundred years or so. Yes. But the writtings could very well tell of the events that led to the end of the second war. Maybe a prophecy of sorts for then. King ends the reign of the twin heroes family and starts a new reign, which the Harmonia lineage comes from. The people of the war era could've been aware of the writtings.