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  1. #181
    I poke your snoot UnovaCastaway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I was thinking that the description was about the ancient civilization's king, and that Team Plasma was trying to recreate that kingdom as themselves.
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Considering that the positions of ③ & ④ switch between version I think its a clear reference to either Zekrom/Reshiram or Thundurus/Tornadus. Now, whilst the message doesn't really gel with anything we know of in the Tao Trio myth I think the Kami Trio fit much better than anything else. After all - if you do the Landorus event - three children tell you that Landorus once "punished" Thundurus & Tornadus for tearing up the Unova region with their weather powers; this would makes sense in the context of the message e.g. King [Landorus] defeated ③ [Thundurus] alone, ④ [Tornadus] joined King [Landorus] in a day. The "in a day" part is another pertinent clue IMO, since Thundurus & Tornadus occupy Southern Unova in one half of the day and the North in the other. Likewise, I believe further support for the Landorus = King corner can be found in the 3rd paragraph where it says "Wars create tears", a possible reference to the Kami Trio myth (though it could equally reference the epic fight between Zekrom/Reshiram).

    On the other hand, the "day" part could be a reference to the Lacunosa Monster myth, in which Kyurem only comes out at one particular time period (night), so the counterpart to the enemy King [Kyurem] defeated would have to have waited until the next night rolled over to join him. However, I think a counterpoint to the Kyurem = King part can be found in the 3rd paragraph where it says "Good or evil isn't all", given that Kyurem is the Boundary Pokémon.

    Still, this is all assuming that King is a Pokémon when there's also the possibility that he was a real person that founded a civilisation (like a proper king). In this scenario he could be related to the God Stone & Kyurem and could also be the one who defeated the twin heroes' sons after their respective dragons exhausted themselves and reverted to stone form. He could also be related to the Harmonia family, though I'm reluctant to believe King is actually N, since he message was written well before his time. Similarly, the message can't be a prophecy as some have suggested since nothing happened in the story the way the message would've foretold. There's also the possibility that the message fortells the events of the third version but I don;t think this is very likely either IMO.



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  3. #183
    Custom Spriter & Animator The Darkraidude's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    While most people think ⑤ is a fish, i think the "fish" part is actually a cloud, and that the "line' is a tail or something. this reinforces the idea that ⑤ is one of the Djinn/Genei/what-ever-you-call-them trio. has anyone taken a kyurem, landorus, thunderus, or tornadus down there and see if it affected anything?
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  4. #184
    megane shota hurristat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darkraidude View Post
    While most people think ⑤ is a fish, i think the "fish" part is actually a cloud, and that the "line' is a tail or something. this reinforces the idea that ⑤ is one of the Djinn/Genei/what-ever-you-call-them trio. has anyone taken a kyurem, landorus, thunderus, or tornadus down there and see if it affected anything?
    Nothing happens. They wouldn't so blatantly reveal the puzzle.

    I also doubt that the "fish" thing is a cloud.

  5. #185
    Registered User nothinglord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    Well, this is the translated Japanese, the English version was usually left unchanged:

    Juniper: Hiiii there! White!
    I heard about these Pokémon statues and came to investigate!
    By the way, these statues are actually Pokémon called Darmanitan.
    They're currently asleep and all hardened up.
    As for how long they've existed, well, a rough estimate...
    Like, wow! Over 2500 years ago! That seems to be when they fell asleep, at least.
    It's around the same era in which this ruin, the Relic Castle, was prosperous.
    Could it possibly be they were guarding the town?


    She mentions that the Darmanitan existed around the same time in which the Relic Castle was very prosperous. The castle itself could have existed long before the civilization reached its golden age. But yeah, I doubt the Relic Castle was dedicated to the Unovan heroes. It's very possible that they were a separate civilization, probably a sun-worshiping one considering the castle's association with Volcarona.
    That creates a possible explanation for the Abyssal Ruins AND the Balance trio. As someone mentioned in an early post, another major form of energy is light energy. So, Reshiram and Zekrom could have been a single dragon based on Light energy, while Kyurem is separate from them. The "king," could have defeated Kyurem, and befriended this light dragon. Before this battle, Kyurem could have had some other form of energy.

    The king rescued beings from waves. Waves being interpreted as literal waves, could be two things; ocean waves or electromagnetic waves. Kyurem could have possibly caused one or both of these, depending on whether or not he had the ability to use two forms of energy. Due to the origin of these energies, he could of had both. For him to create ocean waves, he could use some form of kinetic energy, and for electromagnetic waves, he would have to have some form of nuclear energy.

    Both of these would explain something about Kyurem's current appearance and abilities, and if he had both, it would explain even more.

    Kinetic Energy: If Kyurem had control over gravity, he would be able to cause ocean waves, and would explain his deformed look and why he was found in a crater. when he was defeated by the king (not killed), he could have lost control of his Gravitational powers, causing it to seep out of him. This actually could have caused the crater, either by destroying the area around him, or pulling in a passing comet to where he was. The gravity would have collapsed parts of his body, causing the unequally sized wings, bent features, and caved in face. It would also explain why the "generator" on his tail is smaller compared to Reshiram and Zekrom's.

    Electromagnetic Energy: If Kyurem had control over nuclear fission and fusion, he could use radiative waves. This would explain why, if they are his moves, he has Freeze Shock and Ice Burn, as Fission is used to generate electricity for homes (in real life), and Fusion is used by stars (like our Sun) to generate thermal energy. This could also, though to a lesser degree, explain why Kyurem looks so deformed, as in any exothermic nuclear process, nuclear mass may ultimately be converted to thermal energy, which is given off as heat and in doing so, carries away the mass with it. This could have caused the crater where he is found, as the energy that seeped out of him might have obliterated the surrounding area.

    Both of these are created by the sun, and Kyurem's current state could reference that sun's can eventually turn into a black hole.

    Kyurem and Rekirom could have originally been related to stars, with Rekirom representing stars that supernova and turn into white dwarfs, and Kyurem representing stars that supernova and turn into Black Holes. All of this (and the previous statement) could mean that Reshiram and Zekrom's original being (what I call Rekirom) and Kyurem are like the current Reshiram and Zekrom, with Rekirom being White and Kyurem being Black.

    If you think of Kyurem and Rekirom as angels, Kyurem could be considered a fallen angel. This could be why the Abyssal Ruins are sunken as they represent Kyurem while the Relic Castle represents Rekirom. The king and his people/followers could've worshiped Kyurem as a God, hence the reason there's the GOD Stone, and when their "god" eventually threatened them, the king was forced to defeat him. Afterwards, the king eventually befriended Rekirom, and when they arrived at/built Relic Castle, the area became prosperous. After some time, the two brothers, possibly descendants of the king and most likely twins, fought over who would rule the kingdom, and whether truths or ideals were better/right. They came to an agreement or whatever, but their sons continued the fight, which caused Rekirom to split.

    I know a lot of this may or may not be true, and that much of this is related to the tao trio, but it starts out with the Abyssal Ruins and the king. Also, I don't remember everything about the two brothers and their sons, so I may have gotten somethings wrong about them. I'm also sorry about the wall-o-text, but this all just stared coming to me as I was reading and typing. I'm also sorry from quoting a post on page 8 or 9.
    Last edited by nothinglord; 30th October 2011 at 01:40 AM. Reason: additional info
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  6. #186
    El_
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Epic theory, especially like the Kyurem fallen angel part as I have had similar thoughts to that. However, I believe that the Pokemon that Reshiram/Zekrom were when they were one dragon (Rekirom) and Kyurem are the same Pokemon.

    Kyurem seems to be the result of what you get when you separate Spirit (Energy) from Matter. A lifeless creature lacking in energy of what he once was. Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem are likely Pokemon's take on the holy trinity. As for scientific explanation, Kyurem lacking his energy sources (Reshiram/Zekrom) eventually died out like a star would, became cold due to the lack of heat, and then crashed down to earth (from high in the sky not outer space) like a comet. I also don't believe that Kyurem's ice typing is natural, but a byproduct of losing two extremely powerful energy sources.

    As for Relic Castle, I believe that it said in game by a NPC that it is indeed related to the twin heroes. It was most likely built by them to be the then capital of Unova or as they put it, the "Heart of Unova." I think that their culture put on emphasis on heat related Pokemon like Volcorona, Darmanitan, (possibly Victini) etc because of the importance that light and energy represents.

    This civilization seems to stem from another one located in Undella Bay. If I had to guess, the one in Undella is actually the older original culture before the Relic Castle was founded by the heroes. Its possible that the civilization moved from the bay where the ruins sit because of some catastrophe in the past.

    Theres also Dragon Spiral Tower which is the oldest structure in Unova. All these things are related, but the pieces to the puzzle are missing.

  7. #187
    megane shota hurristat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by nothinglord View Post
    The king rescued beings from waves. Waves being interpreted as literal waves, could be two things; ocean waves or electromagnetic waves. Kyurem could have possibly caused one or both of these, depending on whether or not he had the ability to use two forms of energy. Due to the origin of these energies, he could of had both. For him to create ocean waves, he could use some form of kinetic energy, and for electromagnetic waves, he would have to have some form of nuclear energy.
    Ocean waves and EM waves are not the only types of waves -- and "ocean waves" aren't distinct as a type of wave. Waves in general are a method by which energy is transferred, and all waves need a medium of transferral. Ocean waves, which are caused by the friction between the water molecules and the air molecules (i.e. the wind blowing on it) travel through the water, sound waves travel through the air, and for light, the medium is the photon. While physical waves (for lack of a better term, because EM waves do have a physical component to them) are unlikely in this situation when the game refers to "waves" aside from the transverse waves we find in the ocean, both EM waves and nuclear radiation (which you have conflated) (furthermore, nuclear radiation is another instance where the wave-particle duality is readily apparent) are possible in this scenario if Kyurem were to "control" them.

    Kinetic Energy: If Kyurem had control over gravity, he would be able to cause ocean waves, and would explain his deformed look and why he was found in a crater.
    If Kyurem had control over gravity, it could induce tides but not control ocean waves as ocean waves are due to wind rather than gravity. Furthermore, what is the correlation between being found in a crater and gravity? That seems to imply some sort of lack of control over gravity if Kyurem couldn't stop the meteor's (or its) descent.

    when he was defeated by the king (not killed), he could have lost control of his Gravitational powers, causing it to seep out of him. This actually could have caused the crater, either by destroying the area around him, or pulling in a passing comet to where he was. The gravity would have collapsed parts of his body, causing the unequally sized wings, bent features, and caved in face. It would also explain why the "generator" on his tail is smaller compared to Reshiram and Zekrom's.
    Ah, I see you've recognized my previous point. The biggest issue I see with this is that the king is implied to have been in Isshu the entire time -- how could Kyurem have arrived in a meteor or comet and created a crater and then lost his gravitational power? What extra repercussions could there be at that point?

    Furthermore, if the retention of its form is predicated upon its control over gravity, why wouldn't Kyurem have collapsed into a spheroid? And does it still retain some control over gravity if it exists in a complex but altered state?

    Considering the nature of ocean waves, I'd assume that Kyurem has power over the wind rather than power over gravity.

    Electromagnetic Energy: If Kyurem had control over nuclear fission and fusion, he could use radiative waves.
    Unfortunately, you're conflating nuclear radiation and Electromagnetic waves.

    Both sorts of nuclear reactions do have electromagnetic components to them, especially fusion. However, your arguments seem to operate on the assumption that nuclear reactions are the only source of EM waves (which you likely know is false).

    This would explain why, if they are his moves, he has Freeze Shock and Ice Burn, as Fission is used to generate electricity for home,
    The process by which fission generates electricity only indirectly relates to fission -- the huge amounts of energy generated by the controlled chain reaction interact with a pool of water, which has its kinetic energy increased greatly, causing it to turn into steam, causing it to rise, which turns a turbine, producing the electricity that we use.

    An aspect of nuclear fission that Kyurem could have control over is the particle emission. Depending on the type of nuclear fission, either α-particles or β-particles are emitted. Both of these are high-energy particles that are small enough that the wave-particle duality has a non-negligible effect. These are the high-energy particles that cause nuclear radiation, and if Kyurem had control over something like that it would be fucking badass pretty nifty.

    Due to the fact that these particles have a kinetic energy and that anything with kinetic energy emits light (in effect to try and achieve a rest state once more) explains the electromagnetic aspect of nuclear fission.

    and Fusion is used by stars (like our Sun) to generate thermal energy.
    Energy produced by fusion is a result of the mass defect of the product -- some of the mass is converted to energy, and this is expressed in EM waves. However, much of the energy in fusion events is released in the form of subatomic particles being split off and flying off of the atom with great kinetic energy, interacting with the other particles in the star. Most of the light from the star is a function of the temperature of the star -- the massive amounts of energy excites the particles in the sun, and increases the kinetic energy of the system, causing light to be emitted. The energy we receive at Earth from the Sun is not thermal energy (with the exception of solar storms but that's a different phenomenon), it is all electromagnetic radiation. So in the context of waves, the thermal energy is irrelevant.

    This could also, though to a lesser degree, explain why Kyurem looks so deformed, as in any exothermic nuclear process, nuclear mass may ultimately be converted to thermal energy, which is given off as heat and in doing so, carries away the mass with it. This could have caused the crater where he is found, as the energy that seeped out of him might have obliterated the surrounding area.
    Thermal energy and heat are two distinct things; thermal energy is, in effect, the microscopic kinetic energy of the system (how much energy the particles in the system have), and heat is the exchange of that thermal energy between particles. The energy given off by nuclear fusion is a result of the conversion of mass to energy (and considering the mass-energy equivalence, it's a hell of a lot of energy per unit mass), not the other way around, as you seem to imply. The mass isn't "carried off," it's converted into energy. I would doubt that it could cause a crater, as all of the energy would have had to be released at once to have caused a crater would have likely melted Kyurem (an ice-type), so I would doubt that Kyurem has any sort of power over nuclear reactions. If Kyurem were to have some sort of correlation to EM waves, I would expect it would have to do with some sort of enhanced bio-luminescence than nuclear reactions.

    Both of these are created by the sun, and Kyurem's current state could reference that sun's can eventually turn into a black hole.
    Fission happens in the sun, but it happens at the same rate as it does in nature around you, so I wouldn't argue that fission really occurs in the sun. Furthermore, the sun is on a path not to supernova but rather it is just following the main sequence. Mostly stars stay in the main sequence.

    It was a good line of thought, don't get me wrong! It was interesting to read. I just had a few problems with the physics that you based your arguments upon.
    Last edited by hurristat; 31st October 2011 at 10:54 PM.
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  8. #188
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    One thing that bothers me is how did the Relic Items end up in the Abysal ruins if there was supposedly two civilizations. Ideally they would be in the Relic Castle hence the name. This highly implies that they had some kind of interaction or conflict back centuries ago and somehow the items ended up there. It's strange because they are so far away from eachother. Maybe Undella Bay wasn't always a bay, I think it was another city that somehow became flooded and the Relic castle became destroyed too. This implies that some otherworldy forces caused the civilization and the city along with it to be wiped out. They seemingly both were wiped out around the same time. Another distirbing dace is that there's always a raging sandstorm in the desert resort and undella is under water. Maybe the Kami trio also had something to do with this. One's a tornado making Pokemon which if it creates a tornado, it could make a raging sandstorm which could cover the achient city. One of them is a thunderstorm making one, which if it continues to rain for all that time could flood the entire Undella bay, drowning the city.
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  9. #189
    I'm a Biotic God. FEAR ME sonic10158's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    It would be cool if they go into more detail or even have a whole large sidequest about the two ancient places (this and desert resort)

  10. #190
    Registered User xxemerald45xx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Thanks for this translation. I saw a few interesting ideas while reading through other posts, but I don't think, at this point, that there's any way to tell what it all means.

    Hopefully, we'll figure it out in the third game (if there is a third game). I'm guessing it'll somehow tie into Isshu's history, which is what the third game usually does for its respective region. Emerald expanded on the history of Hoenn introduced in Ruby and Sapphire, and Platinum did the same for Diamond and Pearl. This should happen again for Pokemon Gray (again, if it is actually created).

  11. #191
    I'm a Biotic God. FEAR ME sonic10158's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by xxemerald45xx View Post
    Thanks for this translation. I saw a few interesting ideas while reading through other posts, but I don't think, at this point, that there's any way to tell what it all means.

    Hopefully, we'll figure it out in the third game (if there is a third game). I'm guessing it'll somehow tie into Isshu's history, which is what the third game usually does for its respective region. Emerald expanded on the history of Hoenn introduced in Ruby and Sapphire, and Platinum did the same for Diamond and Pearl. This should happen again for Pokemon Gray (again, if it is actually created).
    It is silly for GF not to make a third game (thanks to $$$) but I digress

  12. #192
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I wonder if the Abyssal Ruins are Pokemon's version of Atlantis lol In any case, it would be very interesting if the final confrontation between N and the PC or better yet the capturing of Kyurem (complete Taiji form) happened there.

    I'm guessing that N is a descendent of the actual King (assuming that its not a Pokemon) and the King befriended Kyurem. Impossible to tell what exactly happened aster that, but the ruins could have been abandoned for whatever reasons before Kyurem went on the help the King's descendents or sons (twin heroes) found the Unova region and set up the relic castle.

    Wonder how does Dragon Spiral Tower fits into all of this though.
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    Registered User ZMT123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I think the "king" is Kyurem and the texts are an easter egg hinting to a third version. I don't see any other reason why Gamefreak would put that there.

  14. #194
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by ZMT123 View Post
    I think the "king" is Kyurem and the texts are an easter egg hinting to a third version. I don't see any other reason why Gamefreak would put that there.
    I agree. 'Nuff said.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    The messages describe that the king was very powerful because he manged to single handly save allot of people. To me this seems to sow quite clearly that the king is a Pokemon, after all this is a Pokemon game, and a human really wouldn't have the power to single handedly save all the people and so on as suggested. So I believe that the king is not N or or the player. The fact that the crown is 3000 years old also sows that the king will not be N or the player because the player and N are around at the present time and so the king (if a human) would be dead, this gives more evidence that the king is probably a Pokemon because Pokemon are able to live a lot longer than humans (at least some Pokemon anyway). The Pokemon is most likely a Pokemon that is important to the third game and is a ledgendary Pokemon, so perhaps Kyurem, however, perhaps Kyurem has another form? Or perhaps a twin Pokemon? (just a thought maybe worth noting).

    I timk that it is important that the fact that no a lot is explained about Kyurem (or indeed a lot of the Pokemon in the game) indicates that there is going to be a third game of this generation and that there could be new Pokemon introduced into this new game.

    Perhaps this legend is referring to a completely different region altogether? (I may be drastically mistaken). It's possible because some of the Pokemon in d/p were not given any great explanations including regigigas/cressilia

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