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  1. #151
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post
    In this article, they are linked to as the defeated giants, implying that there is other information to back that up.
    There is nothing to back that up. Someone just decided to insert a link without so much as explaining the merits of the theory.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post
    They are giants by mass, seeing how they're almost as wide as they are tall.
    Not the definition of a giant. A bumblebee has effectively the same width and height, but I wouldn't describe them as gargantuan. If they're only 1.8 m tall, I guess I wouldn't describe them as giants.

    Right away I spot an error in using that thread as a referance, as it refers only to the last thing they did before their slumber and I dubt Snowpoint city is old enough for any part of that legend to be considered ancient.
    Snowpoint City is probably not old enough to justify that, but I wouldn't be surprised if they built it around the sort of emanating power from Regigigas. Why else would Snowpoint be where it is? It's sort of in the middle of nowhere.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    It is there because of the good location for the port and the proximity to Acuity lake. Also, judging by the looks of the temple itself (in both the series and the games) it cannot be older than a few hundred years. This is again supported by its article which state that it is many centuries old (at ten it becomes millenia, so it is likely not more than 1000).

  4. #154
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    There's nothing to suggest the age you are giving for Snowpoint temple other than 'I think a sprite doesn't look that old even though there are many artistic liberties taken in the series', and you provide no reasoning as to why you make that claim other than 'I think so'

    And you're making a claim of fact that is never stated in the games. "It's there because of the god location..."? We learn that the gym leader has been tasked as the temple guardian, and while the city itself does not look that old, you are ignoring the fact that people do tear down old buildings and erect new ones in their place, and this is something that is not unheard of in the series (See Opelucid in Black Version). The modern buildings may not be that old, it doesn't mean the settlement wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post
    Because the post before mine theorized on the possibility that some other pokemon than Arceus could get multitype.

    And the moves Mew can't use are moves that are taught by special toutors, like Flame Burst and Draco Meteor and moves that are unique to specific legends, like Sacred Fire and Fusion Flare, so it's not that it can't perform the moves, it just has no way to learn them.
    If Mew could truly learn every move, then the move tutors would be able to teach them to it if it held the capacity to do so. Arceus being able to learn Draco Meteor when a Dragon type provides evidence that it is a limitation on the Pokémon's part, and not because the tutors choose to be exclusive that Mew can't learn it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post

    In this article, they are linked to as the defeated giants, implying that there is other information to back that up.
    As Silktree already mentioned, Bulbapedia is a fan-edited article, and while it aims to be objective, there are many subjective statements and links made there, that article being one of them. I've found no explanation for that other than a possibility of the person making inferences that the individual has not backed up, nor is it backed up by any other dialogue in the games. The references to the time-space dragons and the Lake Trio correspond with other myths in the game

    But here's the thing, the Regis are hardly giants, and considering the Plates come from Arceus, they are miniscule in size compared to it, and Regigigas is hardly larger than Arceus itself.

    Even by human standards, these creatures are hardly giants.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 5th May 2011 at 12:14 PM.

  5. #155
    Steel Pokémon Master Bulletproof Scales's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    That line has nothing to do with the Regis. This is the real legend about the Regis in Sinnoh.

    The identity of the giant(s) defeated by Arceus is a complete mystery at this point. It's too bad that someone at Bulbapedia didn't like the idea that the games posed a question without answering it; I guess he or she wasn't a fan of the Ruins of Alph, either.
    Quite informative, thank you.
    I wiki'd that and were pretty confused. haha!

    Now is the "giants" line correctly translated? Assuming it is, and also not just some throhaway text, they must've played a big role, but yet is nowhere to be found. Defeated = extinct and better stay dead? If they were hinting at the appearance of a counterpart to Arceus (no he don't need one ) they sure trashed it with genV...

    While GF had to include these plates somewhere, HG/SS sure had a less ambiguous way of doing so. Instead a civilization 3000 years ago had hold of them, a civilization that was presumably put under water before they could pick up their valuables. Or deserted the king that saved them from the waves.

    If the ruins are the big mystery GF makes them out to be, the plates being there may actually hint at something.
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  6. #156
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletproof Scales View Post
    If they were hinting at the appearance of a counterpart to Arceus (no he don't need one ) they sure trashed it with genV...
    That's like saying that none of the old Pokémon can ever receive new evolutions since they didn't in this generation. Unova's mythology is independent of the previous legends, but we know there is a link between Johto and Sinnoh (a two-generation gap) and that yet another region is involved (the one in which the Sinjoh Ruins are situated). Generation VI could very well revisit the origins of the Pokémon universe.

    If the ruins are the big mystery GF makes them out to be, the plates being there may actually hint at something.
    If that were the case, I'd think the plates would be mentioned in the text. Cynthia could have also mentioned being interested in the Abyssal Ruins due to to their connection to the plates, but she said no such thing.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Regigigas has been stated to have been asleep for centuries, which means that even though it has slept for a long time, it has not done so since ancient times, meaning it was already ancient when it saved Snowpoint City.
    And note its name Regigigas, it is a giant as the 14th tallest pokémon, and the other Regis are the only legendary pokémon commonly known not to be invincible, Regirock's Pokédex entry even implying it gets hurt quite frequently. Also the three Regis are as tall as a tall human, twice as wide and many times as heavy, something 1.8m tall and wide enough to block a double door fits the title of giant just fine, regarless of wether or not it is even twice as tall as a person.

    Tutors probably chose not to teach Mew unique moves due to it not being the specific type normally required, since regardless of its capabillities, it's still a normal type.

    Oh, and the Regis' legend is native to Sinnoh, even though the trio slept in Hoenn. Oh, and in Platinum they can be found in Sinnoh.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    That's like saying that none of the old Pokémon can ever receive new evolutions since they didn't in this generation. Unova's mythology is independent of the previous legends, but we know there is a link between Johto and Sinnoh (a two-generation gap) and that yet another region is involved (the one in which the Sinjoh Ruins are situated). Generation VI could very well revisit the origins of the Pokémon universe.
    I'm not denying the possibility they'd pick up on it after some delay. Just saying they left blanks in the creation myth without filling them the next opportunity to do so. A hint could be saved for Grey, though.
    Whereas the Ruins of Alph and the Unown were isolated in Crystal, there were no hint at them playing a role with other pokémon or any history.


    If that were the case, I'd think the plates would be mentioned in the text. Cynthia could have also mentioned being interested in the Abyssal Ruins due to to their connection to the plates, but she said no such thing.
    They do go unmentioned and aren't of much importance, but they are the only thing that mentions the giants, and nobody in the game seem to know the story of how the ruins got under water. Cynthia, the big Sinnoh myth researcher, being on the spot for the ruins prove they're of importance, maybe she's keeping it a secret for Grey.
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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    And note its name Regigigas, it is a giant as the 14th tallest pokémon, and the other Regis are the only legendary pokémon commonly known not to be invincible, Regirock's Pokédex entry even implying it gets hurt quite frequently. Also the three Regis are as tall as a tall human, twice as wide and many times as heavy, something 1.8m tall and wide enough to block a double door fits the title of giant just fine, regarless of wether or not it is even twice as tall as a person.
    Commonly not known to be invisible? The plots in Gen III onward hinges on the fact that these legendaries can be defeated.

    Note that it said defeated giants. The Regis are anything but, the only one that is a giant is Regigigas, so why plural?

    Tutors probably chose not to teach Mew unique moves due to it not being the specific type normally required, since regardless of its capabillities, it's still a normal type.
    Except its a Psychic type, and the tutors seem to have an inherent ability to tell whether your Pokemon is capable of learning it as typing isn't the only prerequisite.

    Oh, and the Regis' legend is native to Sinnoh, even though the trio slept in Hoenn. Oh, and in Platinum they can be found in Sinnoh.
    HgSs has shown that the people of the Pokémon World's past don't remain stationary, they migrate. That fact is the very reason for the Sinjoh ruins and Embeded Tower's existence. The ancestors of the people of Pacifidlog Town seem aware of the Golems (they give a hint with the line 'six dots open three doors) and are seafarers, nothing implies they were ever native to Hoenn, just that they settled there.

    And what, now we're trying to segregate legends? Then Regigigas had nothing to do with Arceus because no legend in Sinnoh even comes close to corroborating with these claims.

    Regigigas has been stated to have been asleep for centuries, which means that even though it has slept for a long time, it has not done so since ancient times, meaning it was already ancient when it saved Snowpoint City.
    So it's only been asleep for centuries, yet claim that it had anything to do with the beginning of the universe according to Sinnoh myth? Kind of strange for a defeated giant who's power had been sealed in a plate to be roaming around towing continents.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    The stories may rely on legends being defeatable, but the myths surrounding them always make them seem invincible.

    And Arceus has everything to do with every single pokémon, even Deoxys.

  11. #161
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mather1 View Post
    The stories may rely on legends being defeatable, but the myths surrounding them always make them seem invincible.
    Difference is that the myth need not inherently be true, whereas your defeat of the legendaries is fact.

    And Arceus has everything to do with every single pokémon, even Deoxys.
    Says who exactly? Its astounding that despite the fact that these are called Sinnoh myth, and the fact that Sinnoh legendaries have their own specific terminology in Japanese, that people make the assumption that every single legendary is connected to every single other legendary in some sort of pantheon when there is no evidence to suggest that, and more evidence to suggest the opposite.

    Arceus creating the entire universe aside, there are still no stories to corroborate with the idea that the Regis were the defeated giants other than mere assumption. Nothing else exists to back those claims up, not even their size.

    I think I've more than given enough evidence to show how the Regis may not be the giants, you only have given your claims (which contradict your other claims).

  12. #162
    Ma-ho-ho-ho! TeddiUrsa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I asked this already some time ago but with not response, so I'll ask again:

    Is there a chart of some sort so I can translate the hieroglyphs myself? I am eager to read what the German translation has to say about the ruins and how much was left in translation. ^^"

  13. #163
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletproof Scales View Post
    Now is the "giants" line correctly translated?
    'The power given to this plate is the power of fallen giants.' ...so yeah, just as ambiguous.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesun View Post
    'The power given to this plate is the power of fallen giants.' ...so yeah, just as ambiguous.
    It does prove they've existed. But "fallen" is a little more ambiguous than "defeated"...
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  15. #165
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletproof Scales View Post
    It does prove they've existed. But "fallen" is a little more ambiguous than "defeated"...
    Yeah, defeated implies Arceus beat them, fallen implies that they just lost their power without giving reason as to why.

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