Pokémon Remake Discussion (Read First Post!) - Page 86

View Poll Results: When would you like R/S/E Remakes

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  • Yes, this generation

    195 47.56%
  • No, I'd prefer them in Gen 6

    152 37.07%
  • No, wait till Gen 7

    16 3.90%
  • No, i dont want r/s/e remakes

    47 11.46%
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Thread: Pokémon Remake Discussion (Read First Post!)

  1. #1276
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    It was the case with Blue too, except only his one fanboy remembers since he was champion for all of five minutes.
    Or they could just not explain it
    You do realise that Gameplay and Story Segregation is one way of lacking internal consistency, which is a bad thing, yes? Just because tropes exist it doesn't mean you HAVE to use them, especially if the fans don't want you to. Having Gen III's place in the timeline officially established is helpful, why wouldn't you want that?

    It's amazing how people get technical on some details but not others. Whether you consider Colo/XD has main series or not, you can, if I recall, trade between those games and RSE. Keeping that in mind, you can theoretically have a Pokemon from XD go all the way back to Colosseum using RSE as a mediator, effectively making it go back to the past.

    And even if you couldn't, there's still the two games, five years apart, communicating with the same game as if there was no time difference.

    Unless trading was set up to be a major plot point, like in FrLg, we can probably count it out as "evidence" toward a timeline theory.
    To be fair, time is messed up in Gen III; there's no day/night cycle in all of them and the Berry Glitch in Hoenn.

    Of course, even if you don't want to count the trading thing as evidence you could count the encounter with Groudon & Kyogre as some.



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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    You do realise that Gameplay and Story Segregation is one way of lacking internal consistency, which is a bad thing, yes? Just because tropes exist it doesn't mean you HAVE to use them, especially if the fans don't want you to. Having Gen III's place in the timeline officially established is helpful, why wouldn't you want that?
    You should have linked him to Tropes Are Not Good, which itself is now a redirect to Tropes are Tools. I digress.

    In my opinion, if they want PassionRuby/HonestSapphire to just be contemporaneous with Black/White for no adequately explored reason while having the exact same story they did in Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, they'll do it. If they'd rather invoke some sort of time travel or make PRHS a sequel to RSE, then they'll do that. It doesn't have to make perfect logical sense.

    Having an established timeline is good because it gives you a sense of groundedness. "Oh, yeah, Steven's talking about the stuff that happened in Ruby/Sapphire! That's cool, I was there!"

    Having an established timeline is bad because it limits what the developers can do without retconning the timeline. This is why the Legend of Zelda's official timeline isn't made public: if Aonuma or Miyamoto want to change it for a new game, then they can because no one else knows what the 'real' timeline is.

  3. #1278
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Purim View Post
    You should have linked him to Tropes Are Not Good, which itself is now a redirect to Tropes are Tools. I digress.

    In my opinion, if they want PassionRuby/HonestSapphire to just be contemporaneous with Black/White for no adequately explored reason while having the exact same story they did in Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, they'll do it. If they'd rather invoke some sort of time travel or make PRHS a sequel to RSE, then they'll do that. It doesn't have to make perfect logical sense.
    Tbh, I don't care exactly where in the timeline RSE gets put, as long as it gets put SOMEWHERE.

    Having an established timeline is good because it gives you a sense of groundedness. "Oh, yeah, Steven's talking about the stuff that happened in Ruby/Sapphire! That's cool, I was there!"

    Having an established timeline is bad because it limits what the developers can do without retconning the timeline. This is why the Legend of Zelda's official timeline isn't made public: if Aonuma or Miyamoto want to change it for a new game, then they can because no one else knows what the 'real' timeline is.
    I don't see how having an established timeline makes it difficult for developers of the Pokemon series, though even if it does so what? At £39 a game I think the developers can put up with some logistical challenges.
    Last edited by Green Zubat; 14th September 2011 at 10:41 PM.



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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rubinek View Post
    If there will be a second region in the RSEmakes, watch GameFreak troll us with Kanto for the sake of having Kanto in each generation ever.
    GameFreak will probably make a second Sevii archipelago. I don't want to see Kanto again.
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    You do realise that Gameplay and Story Segregation is one way of lacking internal consistency, which is a bad thing, yes? Just because tropes exist it doesn't mean you HAVE to use them, especially if the fans don't want you to.
    You realize the trope isn't used because it exists, but the other way around right? Someone didn't write that page so videogame developers could use it. It was written because it was observed. It exists because there are technical limitations to the games. Regice is supposed to technically be resistant to all but the hottest flames but they aren't going to make a game mechanic specifically for that.

    To be fair, time is messed up in Gen III; there's no day/night cycle in all of them and the Berry Glitch in Hoenn.
    And here is exactly the point I was bringing up with that exact quote. Fans selectively being technical with some details but not others. To say "time is messed up" is to handwave the former concept you so vehemently deny should be used, when you yourself are doing the same thing, simply giving an explanation without giving an explanation. The lack of a day-night cycle is game-play-and-story segregation, but as you pointed out previously, this case may have actually stemmed from Game Freak's laziness. The fact of the matter is though, in-universe, there is day and night. In RSE, they just don't show it for some reason, but time is moving, and there is night as evident by Umbreon and Espeon's ability to evolve. In FrLg, such a system doesn't exist in an attempt to emulate the original games, but at least a less cop-out answer would be that "Red is a good little boy who doesn't stay out in the dark" rather than a less-then-explainable "Time is messed up because I say so, because I can't admit game-play-and-story segregation exists, because its internally inconsistent, yet saying time is messed up with no in-universe explanation is consistent"

    To say "time is just messed up" as an explanation for the trades between Colo/XD and RSE, and Colo to XD by proxy of Gen III games is to selectively ignore the fact that yes, there is some internal consistency when it comes to trading between games that clearly don't take place in the same relative points in time. Pal Park and Pokétransfer were indirect trades, not even trades, but transfers. They have consistency in that the transfer has always been in the past to the future. Yet, when it comes to games not existing within the same time span, we had one set of games (Gen I and Gen II) trade directly through Time Machine, and another set of games, while one may be a Game Cube game, most of the fandom concede to belonging to the main series, ignores the whole concept all together. Yet, if we were to choose to follow on the tradition established by Gen III, especially when Gen IV retcon'd out the Time Machine, we're being internally inconsistent, despite having as many examples to draw from as the one-way-transfer-methods used in the past two generations? What?

    So I guess that's a roundabout way of me saying game-play-and-story segregation is a means of maintaining internal consistency if they've consistently applied it to the same concept. Going back to the Regice example, ice types will always be weak to ice types because of game mechanics, while story-wise, it may be immune. We're going to suddenly bring back the time machine, when that concept was retcon'd in-universe, because using something they've written out of the canon is more consistent then ignoring a small plot hole to enrich the overall trading experience because they've done so in the past already?
    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Tbh, I don't care exactly wheee in the timeline RSE gets put, as long as it gets put SOMEWHERE.
    So apparently haphazardly placing RSE anywhere is more acceptable as long as an explanation is given even if it results in major plot holes and consistency errors, but acknowledging that a specific concept exists is a capital sin, and said concept should never be used even when it would otherwise enrich game play because some people can't wrap their heads around it?

    Having RSE take place after BW, despite all the evidence otherwise, is more internally consistent then having an RSEmake take place in Gen I, but still trade with Gen V after the Elite 4, when there is no other established events to be placed on a time line and its basically free-game, thus envoking the concept of game-play-and-story segregation?

    You've got to be kidding.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 14th September 2011 at 06:48 AM.

  6. #1281
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Okay, sorry to jump in with a completely random comment here, but last night I dreamt I was checking my usual Pokemon news 'sites and they were all reporting on the RSEmakes having been released! Major disappointment when I woke up and realized none of it was real... I think I'm getting a little too obsessed, ha ha.

    In my dream, though, someone on the dream-Bulbagarden forums posted that Sapphire2 was named "Marsh" Sapphire (or something similar) I can't remember the Ruby2 name from my dream, except for that it was something that had been a popular fan-name for the remake. What do y'all think, would you rather have a surprising name, or would you rather have guessed correctly? Random question.

    I hope they bring back more characters like the Bug Maniac. Maybe they could have one for each type, and you could get the corresponding elemental Gems from them, or the Plates or something. I think that'd be a good way to integrate some of the new items that have come out since the original RSE.

  7. #1282
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgie Pie View Post
    Okay, sorry to jump in with a completely random comment here, but last night I dreamt I was checking my usual Pokemon news 'sites and they were all reporting on the RSEmakes having been released! Major disappointment when I woke up and realized none of it was real... I think I'm getting a little too obsessed, ha ha.

    In my dream, though, someone on the dream-Bulbagarden forums posted that Sapphire2 was named "Marsh" Sapphire (or something similar) I can't remember the Ruby2 name from my dream, except for that it was something that had been a popular fan-name for the remake. What do y'all think, would you rather have a surprising name, or would you rather have guessed correctly? Random question.

    I hope they bring back more characters like the Bug Maniac. Maybe they could have one for each type, and you could get the corresponding elemental Gems from them, or the Plates or something. I think that'd be a good way to integrate some of the new items that have come out since the original RSE.
    Something like Freezing Sapphire and Blazing Ruby sounds fine, in my opinion. A more original name would be okay, too.

    The Bug Maniac and the Hex Maniac are my favourite trainer classes. The Gem or Plate idea sounds great, but some types are not represented by trainer classes in Hoenn. Especially the Ice-type, Dark-type and Steel-type don't have their own trainer class.
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  8. #1283
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Glaciate
    The Bug Maniac and the Hex Maniac are my favourite trainer classes. The Gem or Plate idea sounds great, but some types are not represented by trainer classes in Hoenn. Especially the Ice-type, Dark-type and Steel-type don't have their own trainer class.
    Would it tick off fans for them to introduce "Maniacs" for each type, and scatter them around the region? I know I wouldn't mind, but I can't speak for everyone's opinions.

  9. #1284
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgie Pie View Post
    Would it tick off fans for them to introduce "Maniacs" for each type, and scatter them around the region? I know I wouldn't mind, but I can't speak for everyone's opinions.
    A Dark Maniac, a Steel Maniac and an Ice Maniac? I don't know. It sounds a bit far fetched, but it could work out.
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Glaciate View Post
    A Dark Maniac, a Steel Maniac and an Ice Maniac? I don't know. It sounds a bit far fetched, but it could work out.
    I just know that there are a lot of fans who would revolt if GF changed -anything- at all from the original "cannon".

    Me, I'd love a bit of mix-up. Make it a sequel, and have Hoenn have had an earthquake/flooding from the evil teams' actions in the past however-many years, completely skewing the landscape. In Ruby2, everything is more rocky, less plants/lakes; Sapphire2 has become a swampier area. Totally change the landscape per version. Like, remove the desert completely from S2, and expand it in R2. I'd love new stuff like that, but a lot of people hate the very idea of such a change...

  11. #1286
    KYUREM FORMS ERRYWHERE rubinek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Well, if you transfer a Pokemon all the way from RSE to BW, the Pokemon Trainer Notes will read "Arrived after a long travel through time". Whether that means that RSE is taking place before all other gens sans I, or simply referring to the fact that the games themselves are indeed quite old is debatable.

    For the trainer classes, I really hope they bring Cool Trainers back. I know they are the same as Ace Trainers, but I liked the old translation better :/ Hell, I'm still calling Ace Trainers Cool out of habit.

    Since were also on topic of names, what do you people think will the new games be called? One of the coolest ideas I heard was RoyalRuby and MajesticSapphire, and I would love to have them named that way. :)
    Last edited by rubinek; 14th September 2011 at 01:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rubinek View Post
    Since were also on topic of names, what do you people think will the new games be called? One of the coolest ideas I heard was RoyalRuby and MajesticSapphire, and I would love to have them named that way. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by myself
    On the note of names for the RSEmakes, I was looking at the descriptions of the Ruby and Sapphire items from FireRed/LeafGreen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulbapedia on the Ruby
    An exquisitely beautiful gem that has a red glow. It symbolizes passion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulbapedia on the Sapphire
    An exquisitely beautiful gem that has a blue glow. It symbolizes honesty.
    Could they got back to these descriptions for the remakes? PassionRuby and HonestySapphire? That's my guess for the names, anyway.
    I've later taken to calling the Sapphire remake "HonestSapphire" because it rolls off the tongue better.
    Last edited by Purim; 14th September 2011 at 03:54 PM.
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  13. #1288
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by eevee_lotion View Post
    After all the debate I think that they should leave the remakes to gen VI and close gen V on the DS with grey and start gen VI on the 3DS that way it will all make sense
    and someone said that they hope GF would make pokemon on the Wii
    that will never happen or else you won't be able to take pokemon with you, and if you can't take 'em with you it feels less real
    I agree fully with this. While people seem to expect remakes and love the Hoenn Region (as do myself) I say that they should wait until the next gen to do it.

    Lets close out Unova and gen 5 first, so the new game that I am expecting to be announced soon if there is one, is Pokemon Grey. HG/SS isn't that old at all either, and as someone mentioned there is like a 6 year gap between the first two remakes.

    The Hoenn Region would probably more appreciate the 3DS anyways, and the remakes can end there.

  14. #1289
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgie Pie View Post
    I just know that there are a lot of fans who would revolt if GF changed -anything- at all from the original "cannon".

    Me, I'd love a bit of mix-up. Make it a sequel, and have Hoenn have had an earthquake/flooding from the evil teams' actions in the past however-many years, completely skewing the landscape. In Ruby2, everything is more rocky, less plants/lakes; Sapphire2 has become a swampier area. Totally change the landscape per version. Like, remove the desert completely from S2, and expand it in R2. I'd love new stuff like that, but a lot of people hate the very idea of such a change...
    Sounds like the version diffs between Black and White... I could see it happening. A sequel-type thing instead of a direct remake would be unexpected, at any rate. I wouldn't mind it.

  15. #1290
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ruby and Sapphire Remake Discussion

    On the idea of names for RSEmakes, I like PassionRuby and HonestSapphire, reminds me of HGSS.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    You realize the trope isn't used because it exists, but the other way around right? Someone didn't write that page so videogame developers could use it. It was written because it was observed.
    Well, duh.

    It exists because there are technical limitations to the games. Regice is supposed to technically be resistant to all but the hottest flames but they aren't going to make a game mechanic specifically for that.
    But they could, it would be as simple as giving it a new ability, or a unique attack or anything, if they wanted to.

    And here is exactly the point I was bringing up with that exact quote. Fans selectively being technical with some details but not others. To say "time is messed up" is to handwave the former concept you so vehemently deny should be used, when you yourself are doing the same thing, simply giving an explanation without giving an explanation. The lack of a day-night cycle is game-play-and-story segregation,
    Game-play and Story segregation is having features of one of those two not be reflected in the other. I said time was messed up, but I didn't discriminate between which of them it was messed up in, in fact I assert it for both Gameplay and Story. Nor did I say it had stopped, I said it was messed up, which could be a result of any number of the tropes relating to time.

    but as you pointed out previously, this case may have actually stemmed from Game Freak's laziness. The fact of the matter is though, in-universe, there is day and night. In RSE, they just don't show it for some reason, but time is moving, and there is night as evident by Umbreon and Espeon's ability to evolve. In FrLg, such a system doesn't exist in an attempt to emulate the original games, but at least a less cop-out answer would be that "Red is a good little boy who doesn't stay out in the dark" rather than a less-then-explainable "Time is messed up because I say so, because I can't admit game-play-and-story segregation exists, because its internally inconsistent, yet saying time is messed up with no in-universe explanation is consistent"

    To say "time is just messed up" as an explanation for the trades between Colo/XD and RSE, and Colo to XD by proxy of Gen III games is to selectively ignore the fact that yes, there is some internal consistency when it comes to trading between games that clearly don't take place in the same relative points in time. Pal Park and Pokétransfer were indirect trades, not even trades, but transfers. They have consistency in that the transfer has always been in the past to the future.
    Yes and I'm not arguing that they don't.

    Yet, when it comes to games not existing within the same time span, we had one set of games (Gen I and Gen II) trade directly through Time Machine,
    Which is OK, because the Time Machine is built to compensate for the temporal shift.

    and another set of games, while one may be a Game Cube game, most of the fandom concede to belonging to the main series, ignores the whole concept all together.
    Which is bad, but explainable if you believe the messed-up time theory.

    Yet, if we were to choose to follow on the tradition established by Gen III, especially when Gen IV retcon'd out the Time Machine, we're being internally inconsistent, despite having as many examples to draw from as the one-way-transfer-methods used in the past two generations? What?
    We're in Gen V now and as such its clear that Gen III is the inconsistency. Every time there's trades from the past, some feature compensates for it. Gen V notes whenever you get a Gen III Pokemon Migrated then Transferred that its had a "long travel through time", acknowledging the time difference and explaining how its possible to still trade. The Time Machine likewise acknowledges the time difference and explains how its still OK to trade. Gen III, on the other hand just does it as if all the games occur in the same time (except for FrLg, which at least have a potential handwave in Celio's net center trade machine).

    However, if time is messed up in some way, then you can handwave the inconsistency. I cite my proof of Gen III time being messed up as the Berry glitch and lack of a day/night cycle (yet, the relevant evolutions still occurring).

    Of course, if RSEmakes come along and do explain it all away then none of this matters.

    So I guess that's a roundabout way of me saying game-play-and-story segregation is a means of maintaining internal consistency if they've consistently applied it to the same concept.
    Technically, you're just being consistent with your inconsistency. If you have a feature in the game that's non-existent in the story or vice versa then there is internal inconsistency.

    Going back to the Regice example, ice types will always be weak to ice types because of game mechanics, while story-wise, it may be immune. We're going to suddenly bring back the time machine, when that concept was retcon'd in-universe, because using something they've written out of the canon is more consistent then ignoring a small plot hole to enrich the overall trading experience because they've done so in the past already?
    Having unexplainable plot holes doesn't enrich MY trading experience. I'm really not asking for much, you know. All I want is a canon explanation for my time-travelling trade system, its really not a lot to ask for.

    So apparently haphazardly placing RSE anywhere is more acceptable as long as an explanation is given even if it results in major plot holes and consistency errors, but acknowledging that a specific concept exists
    Er, there's a difference between acknowledging a trope and just using it, with no explanation, which in itself creates inconsistencies.

    is a capital sin, and said concept should never be used even when it would otherwise enrich game play
    Subjective. In my opinion it doesn't enrich gameplay, at least not if it ain't gonna be accompanied by a little Magic A Is Magic A or explained.

    because some people can't wrap their heads around it?
    I comprehend the idea of Gameplay and Story Segregation very well, thank you very much.

    Having RSE take place after BW, despite all the evidence otherwise,
    What evidence otherwise? You said yourself that there isn't any real proof for RSE's place in the time line, so it could theoretically go anywhere. Of course, even if they did place it somewhere counter-intuitive I wouldn't mind, provided that it was sufficiently explained, so that there were no discrepancies.

    is more internally consistent then having an RSEmake take place in Gen I, but still trade with Gen V after the Elite 4, when there is no other established events to be placed on a time line and its basically free-game, thus envoking the concept of game-play-and-story segregation?
    Or you could just avoid that by having another time machine style trade system.

    You've got to be kidding.
    I don't see how, considering I didn't say any of that, though I appreciate the words being shoved into my mouth.
    Last edited by Green Zubat; 15th September 2011 at 12:41 AM.



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