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  1. #76
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    So, at some point, could Black Kyurem and White Kyurem merge together to form the original dragon? Of course, this would involve the theory that the parallel in-game universes of Black and White could be bridged somehow.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Well if I were to state my theories, well I have several ideas on the possibilities of what it is.

    It is very possible that the energy and mind of the original dragon split out of the body, supposedly Kyurem, resulting in it falling to the earth, crashing into the ground, damaging itself and creating a giant chasm, and the life Kyurem shows is the result of a purely instinctual will that remains even without its mind, or something of that sort.

    If this were the case maybe Kyurem's not the one trying to re-fuse, being a mindless beast in said theory, maybe Reshiram and Zekrom are each trying to claim the original body for themselves, thus the fusions, of course in all likely hood the fusion is being caused by someone else or Kyurem, but it's a idea.

    But then of course there is the idea that Kyurem is in fact NOT part of the original dragon, however Kyurem is clearly related to Reshiram and Zekrom, so perhaps there were originally not one but two great dragons.

    Here is this alternate idea, note that I mainly believe that Kyurem is part of the original dragon, but this is just a thought. The idea that there were originally two mighty dragon pokemon, the original dragon who represented balance of yin and yang, and its opposite, Kyurem who represented absence of yin and yang, and had the ability to absorb energy into itself to use(thus how it can obtain its alternate forms).

    The two dragons fought a great duel, during a time before the two brothers were fighting, the original dragon managed to defeat Kyurem, sending it hurtling towards the earth, like a meteor, Kyurem crashed into the ground, creating a huge chasm and severely weakening it.

    If this theory were true maybe we will see a "Perfect Kyurem" but it may be its body restored as opposed to the original dragon.

    However that theory is likely not true and probably just my imagination running wild, as for obtaining the original dragon itself, I would not put it above Nintendo to include a new pokemon that cannot be traded back to the first two versions of black and white, they have done it with forms, how much more of a stretch is it to do it with pokemon? They could say that the trading to black and white is a time machine and that they can't allow you to mess with the timeline by sending the original dragon back, or something like that.

    Of course maybe we won't be getting the original dragon and obtaining it may be as much of a pipe dream as say obtaining the ancient Magikarp that as supposedly a lot stronger than the current one.

    Sorry for any spelling and grammar errors the spell checker did not pick up in my post.
    Last edited by Super Charizard; 7th May 2012 at 05:23 PM.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Look at it this way, and remember what each dragon and forme looks like and what they represent. Reshiram is Yang, Zekrom is Yin, and Kyurem is without either, which is Wuji. Kyurem's formes both still represent Wuji, but with influences of Yin and Yang, which is why the formes resemble Reshiram and Zekrom, yet remain Dragon/Ice type and are still Kyurem. The Original Dragon can't be Kyurem because it is without Wuji, which Kyurem and its formes represent.

    Now, the OD is Taiji, which is Yin and Yang together. That calls for it to be Reshiram and Zekrom only. But how would they introduce it? It could be an alternate forme because who would get it? Reshiram or Zekrom? I doubt they'd give the same formes to two separate Pokemon, and it wouldn't make sense to give one a forme but not the other. All that leaves is that it would have to be a totally new Pokemon, but there are issues with that as well.

    It was suggested that the OD could just be added and make B2/W2 incompatible with B/W. But, we know of Kyurem's placeholder data as well as Freeze Shock and Ice Burn being in B/W, so I doubt they would do that. Plus, though they are not in Diamond and Pearl, new formes from Platinum and HG/SS could still be used to battle D/P, the older games would just use the original sprite in place of the newer ones, but stat and ability changes remained intact. Also, Genesect has yet to be revealed, evem though B2/W2 come out next month. Why would they hide the OD from B/W, but Genesect and the other event Pokemon were included, despite Genesect still not being official yet? I find hard to believe they were so concerned about hackers finding its data that they would leave it out, seeing as how the hackers would still need to buy the games first.

    Regigigas and the Hoenn Regis were not important to the story, so adding it later wasn't a big deal. But since the Taoism theme is so involved with the Dragons and the story and Unova, it wouldn't make sense to just throw it in next Gen in a new region with a new theme. That's why I don't think we will ever see the OD in-game, it just doesn't seem like it will happen.

  4. #79
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    Of course, wouldn't your proposition of "leaving behind a shell" technically still go in line with the idea that Kyurem is the "corpse" that resulted from the energies being purged?
    To address this part first, kind of. This is why I like using the Shedinja example a lot. Shedinja is like the "body that was discarded" but it isn't the same bug as Nincada nor the one that it naturally evolves into, Ninjask. The Tao trio of course don't go through an evolution, but its the closest example.

    Like Shedinja, Kyurem is like a reanimated shell, but seems to still be its own thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    If that was the case then I'd think my idea here that the original dragon actually constitutes Black Kyurem and White Kyurem makes more sense since there was One (Original Dragon) which split into Two (Black and White Kyurem, along with the Black and White dimensions) which gave birth to Three (Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem). This technically allows for the account that all dragons were born at the same time if you count the two dimensions. The time discrepancy described in my theory would be quite short, perhaps milliseconds, as both Reshiram and Zekrom needed to be purged to go with the brothers.

    Obviously a working theory that was based on very little information other than in-game confirmation that Black and White are alternate dimensions, but I'm interested to see how much of this lines up.
    Indeed that does also fit with the three pure ones origin myth, and I find the alternate timeline theory plausible. Hopefully they might expand on it a bit more in BW2 with the guy that mentions his time machine that connects the past with the future.

    Though, in order for Black Kyurem and White Kyurem to reform into the Original Dragon, that means that actual re-fusion will have to take place with Kyurem and the other Dragons. There is an actual simple way of doing that though, by having Reshiram/Zekrom reduced back into the Light/Dark Stones, Kyurem holding those items and transforming would be about the same as a fusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by voicerocker View Post
    That's why I don't think we will ever see the OD in-game, it just doesn't seem like it will happen.
    Maybe they actually do want to keep the Original Dragon a big secret, hence why it's sprite was not programmed into BW. People used that exact same argument against Kyurem not receiving a new forme, and it got two of them.

    Like with HG/SS Pichu they have introduced new formes or things that were not present before in the data. Same could happen with the Original_D.
    Last edited by El_; 7th May 2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    @El_;

    It's not an alternate time-line, but an alternate dimension. Either way, its not so much a theory that an alternate dimension exists so much as it is explicitly stated in Opelucid City.
    Quote Originally Posted by voicerocker View Post
    Look at it this way, and remember what each dragon and forme looks like and what they represent. Reshiram is Yang, Zekrom is Yin, and Kyurem is without either, which is Wuji. Kyurem's formes both still represent Wuji, but with influences of Yin and Yang, which is why the formes resemble Reshiram and Zekrom, yet remain Dragon/Ice type and are still Kyurem. The Original Dragon can't be Kyurem because it is without Wuji, which Kyurem and its formes represent.
    Without wuji? So basically you're saying "Without nothingness"--a double negative there, so the wording is weird. Obviously, that's why the Kyurem forms with Reshiram and Zekrom are still Dragon/Ice, because it is still "without polarity". However, the theory that Kyurem takes both in, essentially giving it supreme polarity would suggest that Kyurem doesn't represent wuji on its own, but its four forms represent Taiji, Yin, Yang, and Wuji.

    @El_; alluded to their possible relation earlier. One gave rise to Two, and Two gave rise to Three. The One is Kyurem's original form. The Two it gave rise to are its Black and White form, and the Three is the "Wuji" form of Kyurem, along with Reshiram and Zekrom. There's really no contradiction here other than you simply not taking into consideration the idea of what would happen if Kyurem were to strike a perfect balance between Yin and Yang (rather than just being more heavily influenced by one or the other) by absorbing both entities and does not begin to explain what Kyurem's relation is in all this.

    Now, the OD is Taiji, which is Yin and Yang together. That calls for it to be Reshiram and Zekrom only. But how would they introduce it? It could be an alternate forme because who would get it? Reshiram or Zekrom? I doubt they'd give the same formes to two separate Pokemon, and it wouldn't make sense to give one a forme but not the other. All that leaves is that it would have to be a totally new Pokemon, but there are issues with that as well.
    And as shown multiple times, Kyurem can be incorporated into this. Being essentially the nothingness left by purging Reshiram and Zekrom, one can argue just as well that this nothingness needs to be filled by the two energies for the Original Dragon to return. And herein lies the problem with your proposition--you don't know how they could introduce it. However, the Kyurem based theories have given an explanation that favours neither Reshiram or Zekrom.

    It was suggested that the OD could just be added and make B2/W2 incompatible with B/W.
    No it wasn't. No one suggested making B2/W2 incompatible, simply that OD couldn't be traded or be present during communications.

    But, we know of Kyurem's placeholder data as well as Freeze Shock and Ice Burn being in B/W, so I doubt they would do that.
    All this suggests is provisions for Black Kyurem and White Kyurem in BW. Of course, if the are forms of Kyurem, then there is already provisions for the Original Dragon to exist in battle.

    Plus, though they are not in Diamond and Pearl, new formes from Platinum and HG/SS could still be used to battle D/P, the older games would just use the original sprite in place of the newer ones, but stat and ability changes remained intact.
    Communication through trading made Giratina, Rotom, and Shaymin change back no matter what when entering the Union Room. Your idea here is basically restricting what they've done in the past. Game Freak has gone through great lengths to allow RBY and GSC to communicate despite the 3 year time gap when they could have simply left it as a game mechanic rather than explaining it in-story. You're telling me, you're unable to conceive the idea that there will be a special mechanic specifically for communicating with BW that would not only prevent trade of the Kyurem forms, but simply force the forms to change back when communicating with BW? We aren't talking about forcing a Pokemon to forget a move for the sake of communication (which, by the way, they already did in GSC), simply automatically changing back--something they've done for the Union room in Platinum. You're honestly going to tell me, you can't see them expanding a mechanic like that if needed?

    Also, Genesect has yet to be revealed, evem though B2/W2 come out next month. Why would they hide the OD from B/W, but Genesect and the other event Pokemon were included, despite Genesect still not being official yet? I find hard to believe they were so concerned about hackers finding its data that they would leave it out, seeing as how the hackers would still need to buy the games first.
    Because the Original Dragon is preceded by two other forms of Kyurem? The difference between it and Genesect is that no matter when Genesect is given, it would not have hinted toward a sequel nor does it affect any relevant plot. All it does is seem to characterize N and Ghetsis more based on the scientist's dialogue.

    If there was data in place for the Original Dragon in BW, they would be unable to make it so that it is related to the two Kyurem forms as being speculated. If the speculation that it is related to the Kyurem forms is true, then there is your answer for why the Original Dragon could not be placed in BW.

    Regigigas and the Hoenn Regis were not important to the story, so adding it later wasn't a big deal. But since the Taoism theme is so involved with the Dragons and the story and Unova, it wouldn't make sense to just throw it in next Gen in a new region with a new theme. That's why I don't think we will ever see the OD in-game, it just doesn't seem like it will happen.
    Quite a strange flow of logic here. Regigigas and the Regis were not important to the story, so adding it later isn't a big deal. However, the Twin Dragons, Reshiram, and the Original Dragon are heavily referenced in Unova's mythology, which directly influenced the events of Black and White--yet your conclusion is that it will never appear? It has more grounds to exist now than Regigigas ever (or does) have.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 8th May 2012 at 12:34 AM.
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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    It's not an alternate time-line, but an alternate dimension.
    Actually, the game references two different worlds. A physicist or even a science fiction author would use the term 'parallel universe' rather than 'alternate dimension'. It is theorized that traveling to a parallel universe requires going through a dimension besides the standard ones, but that is not to say that two parallel universes don't reside in the same three-dimensional space; only the path occupies another dimension. There may be other kinds of universes, but I don't think the concept Game Freak created for Unova goes that far.

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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    It's not an alternate time-line, but an alternate dimension.
    Actually, the game references two different worlds. A physicist or even a science fiction author would use the term 'parallel universe' rather than 'alternate dimension'. It is theorized that traveling to a parallel universe requires going through a dimension besides the standard ones, but that is not to say that two parallel universes can't reside in the same three-dimensional space; only the path occupies another dimension. There may be other kinds of universes, but I don't think the concept Game Freak created for Unova goes that far.
    A bit unrelated, but this actually helps me reconcile the different levels of "worlds" that exists in the game (i.e., assuming that all versions are just parallel universes, with BW being most prominent; Unown dimension; Distortion World)

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    Registered User ~ Z ~'s Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Somehow I instantly thought something like:
    - Kyurem TRANSFORM! Reshiram! TRANSFORM! POWERLINK! Kyurem - Flame MODE!
    - Kyurem TRANSFORM! Zekrom! TRANSFORM! POWERLINK! Kyurem - Shock MODE!
    - Kyurem TRANSFORM! POWERLINK COMBINE! Kyurem - Super MODE!
    *Tao Trio! More then meets the eye! Tao Trio! Dragons in disguise!*

    Now taking it more seriously; I sure hope so.
    I think it'd personally be interesting.
    And I'd like to know it's type. Possibly being just single typed. Dragon possibly?

  9. #84
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    What Drayden have to tell the player in the black version, as quoted here under, is refering to the concept of Qi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drayden
    "Pokémon and people do not age because of the passage of time. They get old when the energy flowing in their hearts dries up. This energy in our hearts is powered by truth, ideals, or maybe dreams... That probably changes with what you most hope for in your life."
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Mencius described a kind of qi that might be characterized as an individual's vital energies....

    ...He said "Human beings are born [because of] the accumulation of qi. When it accumulates there is life. When it dissipates there is death... There is one qi that connects and pervades everything in the world.
    Immediately eyecatching is how there's two different states of Qi, both being embodiments of Yin and Yang. How this corresponds to Kyurem is possibly explained as well;

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Condensed, becomes life; diluted, it is indefinite potential.
    Kyurem has indefinite potetial in it's access to embody both Yin and Yang, and becomes life first when it takes the form of either of them? If Kyurem is the concept of Qi, it would be the original dragon, splitting (rather creating) into Yin and Yang at the same time and being able to do so again (black/white Kyurem) in BW2.

    Maybe only fragmented similarities, though, there's flaws in there. But I could see Kyurem having aged by the lack of energy in its heart (ideals and truth) and been kept alive on dreams?


    When it comes to the split in the universe and when that occured, I'm stunned and quite confused as to how it only had an effect on Opelucid City. "A city where past and future intertwine", or the even more intriguing; "time's dividing line" makes me feel sure it's not only this one man and his son who'd heard of a world where the city has progressed differently in time.
    Last edited by Bulletproof Scales; 8th May 2012 at 03:46 PM.
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletproof Scales View Post
    When it comes to the split in the universe and when that occured, I'm stunned and quite confused as to how it only had an effect on Opelucid City.
    It also affected Black City and White Forest, but sadly those are the only obvious version differences (aside from Reshiram and Zekrom's role reversal). I hope that there will be at least one new location (outside of Unova) with even more significant version differences. There also needs to be a satisfying explanation of the split's effect on Unova's history. If neither one of the twin heroes won the war and both Zekrom and Reshiram perished regardless of the universe involved, then what was it that caused the differences (few though they may be)? The only record of the split is arguably in the Abyssal Ruins, where two lines in the inscription are version-dependent. I assume that Kyurem was the one that propelled the split, but we know very little of its history.
    Last edited by Silktree; 8th May 2012 at 02:49 PM.

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    70% Critical Hit Rate Stratago's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    The will and body of the OD split in order to serve the Twin Heroes based on their alignment archetypes to create beings of pure Yin (Zekrom; negative energy) and pure Yang (Reshiram; positive energy). That which didn't fit into either (the neutral energy) was left behind when they split, resulting in Kyurem. (The ice covering its body and it's general 'undead' appearance are both examples of it's 'neutral' nature.)
    This 'empty' being would be virtually without life, due to its absence of both Yin and Yang, but have great 'capacity' for either or both of those forces, which explains why it can fuse with the other two or at least absorb their qi/ki/chi to somewhat assume their appearances.
    By this line of thought, Kyurem is (theoretically) the 'leftovers' of the OD which weren't used in the creation of Zekrom & Reshiram.

    Thanks to The Outrage for articulating what I was trying to say about Wuji much better than I did.

    As far as Arceus is concerned: Mew, who was introduced back in Gen I, contains DNA from all known Pokemon, and is believed be the ancestor of all modern Pokemon. When Arceus was revealed, I suppose many people felt like it was a 'new religion' being thrust on them. (That or people just don't like the idea of being able to capture 'god' in a Pokeball.)
    Last edited by Stratago; 8th May 2012 at 05:05 PM.
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  12. #87
    El_
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Honestly did not want to state this, because it sounds kind of out there, but since were on the subject of Kyurem I was wondering could Kyurem be the first legendary Pokemon to evolve? The reason why I ask this is because some think of it as the Original Dragon, but with a massive energy (Qi) loss, while some just think of it as the leftovers created from the split. Evolution would say that Kyurem is, in a way both.

    Evolution requires a certain amount of energy in Pokemon to be obtained, in order to go from one stage to another. Wouldn't this "energy" not be similar to or the same as Qi? Whether an evolution or not, if Kyurem is the Original Dragon then it is obviously in a lesser state than what it once was, even if it was something completely different. The process of what the Original Dragon went through seems to be a devolution into a lesser forme or Pokemon: Kyurem.

    While a simple new forme would be the easiest approach, an evolution into a powerful new Dragon might be another option. Kyurem is the Original Dragon, and isn't at the same time under this theory. I honestly don't really support it that much, but just something I'd throw out there.

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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    Quote Originally Posted by El_ View Post
    Honestly did not want to state this, because it sounds kind of out there, but since were on the subject of Kyurem I was wondering could Kyurem be the first legendary Pokemon to evolve? The reason why I ask this is because some think of it as the Original Dragon, but with a massive energy (Qi) loss, while some just think of it as the leftovers created from the split. Evolution would say that Kyurem is, in a way both.

    Evolution requires a certain amount of energy in Pokemon to be obtained, in order to go from one stage to another. Wouldn't this "energy" not be similar to or the same as Qi? Whether an evolution or not, if Kyurem is the Original Dragon then it is obviously in a lesser state than what it once was, even if it was something completely different. The process of what the Original Dragon went through seems to be a devolution into a lesser forme or Pokemon: Kyurem.

    While a simple new forme would be the easiest approach, an evolution into a powerful new Dragon might be another option. Kyurem is the Original Dragon, and isn't at the same time under this theory. I honestly don't really support it that much, but just something I'd throw out there.
    Certain formes are more similar to evolution rather than simple visual changes (e.g., Rotom, Shaymin), yet have no set criteria. Kyurem could still have a forme change in that regard, only this time, the requirement is that it receives the energy of Reshiram/Zekrom.

    Evolution itself is a complicated issue in the series--some Pokemon need to acquire a certain amount of power, while others need only be exposed to certain stimuli to result in the release of energy required for evolution. However, these releases in energy are permanent changes. Kyurem on the other hand would be able to freely change between forms, which is what I think differentiates formes and evolution. Then there's also large-scale variations in a species that an individual can't switch between, but I think that just illustrates how ill-defined the concepts of forms are in Pokemon.

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    70% Critical Hit Rate Stratago's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    I don't think evolving legendary pokemon is 'out there' at all. It's my opinion that Formes are more like substitute evolutions, because people can choose whether or not to 'evolve' their legend into something and then switch back. I'd like to see legendaries with branching evo paths, sorta like Eevees, that way it would create divesity.
    Or maybe the makers of the game make formes instead of evolutions to give themselves a little leeway while releasing the first 'version' of the game in a generation. By the time a week passes, someone has hacked the game and found all the data for the different Pokemon in it. If there were 'secret' evolutions of certain Pokemon, especially legendary ones, they'd be found immediately and be all over the net in no time (kinda like what happened with Darkrai, Shaymin and Arceus).

    Smogon: 'Nuff said.

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    Piplups are crunchy Griknot's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem

    So Stratago thinks that Kyurem is like Cell? Wtf?
    It steals power from the other 2 dragons. Its in the trailer of the new movie. And isnt Kyurem a zombie that eats people?

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