Thread: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

Originally Posted by Rare Candy

Do you really think he would tell you what is going to happen after 4 or 5 years?

He said they were done with Black and White, and you expect no Pokemon Grey, and then they tell you they're going to release Black and White 2, which is more BW than Grey.

What I mean, in simple words, is that you cannot use that to confirm that there won't be any Pokemon Grey.

Gen V is ending soon. They're not going to drag it out for another 4-5 years with yet another third version.

What I want to know, though, is why the dragon split into three instead of two. Did the Heroes have a little brother that didn't want them to fight? Also, do the Tao Trio have the Original Dragon's memories? Iris or Drayden (Can't remember which) said it split it's body in two.

Originally Posted by Dark Deox

What I want to know, though, is why the dragon split into three instead of two. Did the Heroes have a little brother that didn't want them to fight? Also, do the Tao Trio have the Original Dragon's memories? Iris or Drayden (Can't remember which) said it split it's body in two.

Iris and Drayden may be more knowledgeable about the myth than anyone else, but they weren't there to see it; their words aren't infallible.

-The Original Dragon's mind and energy are expunged from its body
-Said mind and energy split into two, resulting in Reshiram and Zekrom
-The leftover corpse takes on a zombie-like "life" of its own, and becomes Kyurem.

This is how I imagine it might have gone, but it's all just speculation on my part. I am mostly sure; however, that Kyurem is equivalent to a zombie of sorts. The deathly coldness, the empty eyes in its normal form, the savage man and Pokemon eating tendencies spoken of...

Originally Posted by smalllady

Originally Posted by Rare Candy

Do you really think he would tell you what is going to happen after 4 or 5 years?

He said they were done with Black and White, and you expect no Pokemon Grey, and then they tell you they're going to release Black and White 2, which is more BW than Grey.

What I mean, in simple words, is that you cannot use that to confirm that there won't be any Pokemon Grey.

Gen V is ending soon. They're not going to drag it out for another 4-5 years with yet another third version.

I sort of agree with you, because I also think that it is ending, but since we don't know anything for sure we can continue speculating.

Originally Posted by Articwolf10

Also in regards to Grey, I honestly don't think that Game Freak will even consider it. BW2 is pretty much our obligatory "third version", so to speak, for Gen V. It pretty much expands on BW like how a singular third version would.

BW2 is not the "third version" of BW1, in no way.

Third versions never had big differences from the pairs like BW2 do. I am not even comparing BW2 to Gold and Silver, it's just something new. BW1 were supposed to be a new beginning, and it's their chance to change things, like those patterns that everyone knew about.

Since we know that another dragon exists, and that dragon is not the mascot of BW2 (or isn't in the games), I guess we can expect other Gen V games, or the story of Gen VI games to be connected to Gen V.

Gen III and IV had 5 main games (with the remakes), and Gen V could simply have 5 games, but instead of the remakes, we get sequels, because we don't need Ruby and Sapphire.

Wait, what if the whole 'No RS remakes' deal is because we're getting a single Emerald remake instead? They can't be done with Hoenn. I don't care if we get RS2, just as long as they revisit it!

Well, BW2 is still in the same region, has the 3rd trio member as a mascot with a new Forme, and expands on the plot. Sounds like a 3rd version to me.

Kyurem couldn't be the corpse of the original, otherwise it wouldn't be a member of the trio.

Originally Posted by Dark Deox

Well, BW2 is still in the same region, has the 3rd trio member as a mascot with a new Forme, and expands on the plot. Sounds like a 3rd version to me.

Except the sequels are not "third versions." They're continuing the story of B/W; something no third version has ever done. And it's still too soon to tell if the sequels will only focus on Unova.

Originally Posted by Rare Candy

BW2 is not the "third version" of BW1, in no way.

Third versions never had big differences from the pairs like BW2 do. I am not even comparing BW2 to Gold and Silver, it's just something new. BW1 were supposed to be a new beginning, and it's their chance to change things, like those patterns that everyone knew about.

Since we know that another dragon exists, and that dragon is not the mascot of BW2 (or isn't in the games), I guess we can expect other Gen V games, or the story of Gen VI games to be connected to Gen V.

Gen III and IV had 5 main games (with the remakes), and Gen V could simply have 5 games, but instead of the remakes, we get sequels, because we don't need Ruby and Sapphire.

Would have helped if the quote actually got my username right.

What I was trying to say, was that BW2 was LIKE a third version. By all means I am aware that they're actually sequels, but what I was trying to say, was that they pretty much fill the gap for a third version. In general, the third version usually replaces the legendary duo with a single legendary. In BW2, we get a single legendary who only changes form in different games, but it is still just a single legendary. The third version also usually expands the Pokedex in some way, or otherwise includes more Pokemon available early on in the wild, which is something that BW2 has also done.

Of course, BW2 has also expanded much more by being sequels, however, they still pretty much fill the gap for what a third version would usually do. It may not be exactly like Crystal, Emerald or Platinum because BW2 are sequels, but I truly do believe that BW2 is in a sense the "third versions". And for that reason, I honestly don't believe we will ever see a Gray version because BW2 already fulfills the things that a regular third version would. And if we do get Gray, it would probably be the "third version" to BW2 and not BW.

If there is a 'Grey' version, I hope they wait until after whatever they're doing with Hoenn is done (if in fact they really are doing something), and that it's a playthrough of BW 1&2 using the same character. With the 3DS's larger capacity, it's not inconceivable. However, I don't think that they'll need to; BW2 should conclude the story. If there ever will be a way to get the Original One, it may come in later generations, or, due to the continuity issue that having Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem & 'Original' in the same team, it may not. If not, I would like to see a picture of what it once looked like, though...

Originally Posted by Zistal

Iris and Drayden may be more knowledgeable about the myth than anyone else, but they weren't there to see it; their words aren't infallible.

-The Original Dragon's mind and energy are expunged from its body
-Said mind and energy split into two, resulting in Reshiram and Zekrom
-The leftover corpse takes on a zombie-like "life" of its own, and becomes Kyurem.

This is how I imagine it might have gone, but it's all just speculation on my part. I am mostly sure; however, that Kyurem is equivalent to a zombie of sorts. The deathly coldness, the empty eyes in its normal form, the savage man and Pokemon eating tendencies spoken of...

This was the main theory, I had fully supported it until two formes as opposed to one godly forme were revealed. What people forget due to lack of knowledge about Taoism is that there is indeed a triad involved dealing three different set of energies: The Three Pure Ones of Taoism. Its explained that after the One split into the Two, the Two split further into the Three before splitting finally into the 10,000 things.

The movie info also states that Kyurem was born at the same time as Reshiram/Zekrom, and even though its not the games I'm inclined to believe it. That fits perfectly with the description above, as the two main energy sources leave behind a shell or negative energy which translates as a third source, but not at all the same as the One. (Taiji)

I also love using this example:

Nincada = Original Dragon
Ninjask = Reshiram/Zekrom
Shedinja = Kyurem

If Kyurem was the Original Dragon, then Black/White Kyurem are kinda redundant IMO because Reshiram/Zekrom themselves technically are already "alternate formes" of the Original Dragon. Wuji and Taiji in this case need to be kept separate.

Should a new Dragon be introduced, then it should be referred to as the Taiji Pokemon, or even Dao Pokemon.

Wait they were born at the same time guess you guys win :(

Originally Posted by El_

Originally Posted by Zistal

Iris and Drayden may be more knowledgeable about the myth than anyone else, but they weren't there to see it; their words aren't infallible.

-The Original Dragon's mind and energy are expunged from its body
-Said mind and energy split into two, resulting in Reshiram and Zekrom
-The leftover corpse takes on a zombie-like "life" of its own, and becomes Kyurem.

This is how I imagine it might have gone, but it's all just speculation on my part. I am mostly sure; however, that Kyurem is equivalent to a zombie of sorts. The deathly coldness, the empty eyes in its normal form, the savage man and Pokemon eating tendencies spoken of...

This was the main theory, I had fully supported it until two formes as opposed to one godly forme were revealed. What people forget due to lack of knowledge about Taoism is that there is indeed a triad involved dealing three different set of energies: The Three Pure Ones of Taoism. Its explained that after the One split into the Two, the Two split further into the Three before splitting finally into the 10,000 things.

The movie info also states that Kyurem was born at the same time as Reshiram/Zekrom, and even though its not the games I'm inclined to believe it. That fits perfectly with the description above, as the two main energy sources leave behind a shell or negative energy which translates as a third source, but not at all the same as the One. (Taiji)

I also love using this example:

Nincada = Original Dragon
Ninjask = Reshiram/Zekrom
Shedinja = Kyurem

If Kyurem was the Original Dragon, then Black/White Kyurem are kinda redundant IMO because Reshiram/Zekrom themselves technically are already "alternate formes" of the Original Dragon. Wuji and Taiji in this case need to be kept separate.

Should a new Dragon be introduced, then it should be referred to as the Taiji Pokemon, or even Dao Pokemon.

If that was the case then I'd think my idea here that the original dragon actually constitutes Black Kyurem and White Kyurem makes more sense since there was One (Original Dragon) which split into Two (Black and White Kyurem, along with the Black and White dimensions) which gave birth to Three (Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem). This technically allows for the account that all dragons were born at the same time if you count the two dimensions. The time discrepancy described in my theory would be quite short, perhaps milliseconds, as both Reshiram and Zekrom needed to be purged to go with the brothers.

Obviously a working theory that was based on very little information other than in-game confirmation that Black and White are alternate dimensions, but I'm interested to see how much of this lines up.

Of course, wouldn't your proposition of "leaving behind a shell" technically still go in line with the idea that Kyurem is the "corpse" that resulted from the energies being purged?

Originally Posted by Rare Candy

Since we know that another dragon exists, and that dragon is not the mascot of BW2 (or isn't in the games), I guess we can expect other Gen V games, or the story of Gen VI games to be connected to Gen V.

The original dragon would in theory be to the Tao trio as Arceus was to Creation trio. What makes you think it needs to have its own game? Since it is truly a thing of legend, it is only appropriate that it should be an event Pokémon rather than a version mascot. Speculating about seeing it in B2W2 in that capacity seems more reasonable to me than anything that would involve a fifth Unova game. B2W2 replacing a third version was a pleasant surprise for everyone, whereas releasing a third version despite that would be extremely excessive; few fans would support such a move. As for treating Generation VI essentially as a sequel to B2W2, that would entail giving Unova a trilogy at the expense of a separate story. Actually, it would be even worse as Generation VI will probably have more than two versions related to the same story.

I expect the Unova story to be largely wrapped up in B2W2. If the original dragon's story remains unresolved (which I hope won't happen), I can only see it being addressed in a future generation (not the next one) in which a return to Unova won't be deemed repetitive. Game Freak do have long-term plans for the series, but I don't see why the original dragon shouldn't simply receive the Arceus treatment.

Remember though, the legend of the brothers specifically says the Original Dragon split into TWO dragons, not 3. Plus, if they were all truly 1 dragon before, wouldn't Kyurem's formes look more evenly distributed with features from Reshiram and Zekrom, rather than the "fused" appearance they have? The formes don't look like they are trying to return to a more powerful, previous forme, they look like they are trying become the other two dragons. If the OD were to exist, we would have gotten it this gen like Arceus was the last Pokemon of gen 4. They wouldn't just throw it in next gen because it is too important to gen 5's story. Still, what I don't get is why everyone is sure the OD legend is true, yet there are still debates on whether or not Arceus created Pokemon and the Pokemon world. Both are equally huge and important legends, so why is the OD's legend more believable than Arceus's?

Originally Posted by voicerocker

Remember though, the legend of the brothers specifically says the Original Dragon split into TWO dragons, not 3. Plus, if they were all truly 1 dragon before, wouldn't Kyurem's formes look more evenly distributed with features from Reshiram and Zekrom, rather than the "fused" appearance they have? The formes don't look like they are trying to return to a more powerful, previous forme, they look like they are trying become the other two dragons. If the OD were to exist, we would have gotten it this gen like Arceus was the last Pokemon of gen 4. They wouldn't just throw it in next gen because it is too important to gen 5's story. Still, what I don't get is why everyone is sure the OD legend is true, yet there are still debates on whether or not Arceus created Pokemon and the Pokemon world. Both are equally huge and important legends, so why is the OD's legend more believable than Arceus's?

Arceus is catchable and Mew was the first pokemon. But I agree to a extent

Originally Posted by voicerocker

Remember though, the legend of the brothers specifically says the Original Dragon split into TWO dragons, not 3.

Remember that Giratina is nowhere to be mentioned or referenced with myths regarding Arceus and its creation of the Time/Space duo and the Lake Trio, yet finds itself related to the group, with its relation being explained in Platinum?

We know that two dragons split off from the Original Dragon to follow the two brothers. However, we also know that a "meteor" impact resulted in the Giant Chasm. Where did this meteor come from? Why did it contain a dragon that can fuse with Reshiram and Zekrom? It's possible a third dragon was purged but was never mentioned in the story of the twin heroes for two reasons: 1) the third dragon did not pertain to the story of the twin brothers and 2) no one knew of a third split that, upon purging, looked like a meteor.

Plus, if they were all truly 1 dragon before, wouldn't Kyurem's formes look more evenly distributed with features from Reshiram and Zekrom, rather than the "fused" appearance they have? The formes don't look like they are trying to return to a more powerful, previous forme, they look like they are trying become the other two dragons

If the three are fragments of the Original dragon, why would they not look mismatched when the right combination hadn't been put together?

If the OD were to exist, we would have gotten it this gen like Arceus was the last Pokemon of gen 4. They wouldn't just throw it in next gen because it is too important to gen 5's story. Still, what I don't get is why everyone is sure the OD legend is true, yet there are still debates on whether or not Arceus created Pokemon and the Pokemon world. Both are equally huge and important legends, so why is the OD's legend more believable than Arceus's?

Something quite unprecedented happened this generation, and that's the existence of sequels. Let's look at the facts shall we:

1) Past third-version games have already placed trade restrictions on certain Pokémon, namely the Rotom and Giratina Formes (and Notch-Eared Pichu in HgSs)

2) The Original Dragon was heavily referenced in BW

3) Game Freak is painfully aware of our ability to spoil any of their hidden surprises and events (and now, we know where in the data to look for formes as well!)

4) New Pokémon are unable to be traded to games they don't formerly exist in

5) BW were planned as sequels

The first point illustrates that regardless of whether they will or will not incorporate time travel, there will be restrictions in trading. The last four points indicates Game Freak's foresight. Given that these games are planned as sequels, they can do one thing that we would never be able to deduce from the data of BW--introduce a new Pokémon. Of course, simply introducing one that's unrelated makes no sense, but the new Pokémon need not be unrelated, as the Original Dragon had been referenced since BW. With already-existing trade restrictions on the Kyurem formes, the same story can be made about the Original Dragon and its inability to be traded.

Another possibility exists though. The data for whether an alternate form exists with either a designation of 0 (no form) or 1 (alternate forms)--however this does not indicate how many forms will exist. It could be entirely possible that the Original Dragon is Kyurem. If Kyurem is conceptualized as Wuji (can be translated as ultimate nothingness or that which has no Pole) which could reference a state in which Reshiram and Zekrom are not inside its body, but when both combine within it, it combines two polar opposites, becoming Taiji (Supreme Polarity)

Either way, whatever your take on the situation, Game Freak is perfectly capable of placing it in this generation.

tl;dr version: You're saying we would have gotten it this generation if it existed (despite Regigigas coming one generation later...) but this generation is not yet over, and saying we won't get it seems like a premature conclusion.