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  1. #406
    Doc Octillery FTW VeggiePopper's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    @Wishmaker Jirachi: And why, or more precisely, how do your theory stands? The Pokédex entry says it waits for a hero to fill its body, but that is not mutually exclusive to my idea of the fusion in the game being forced: when the hero comes, the dragons would fuse together willlingly, no need to be forced to. Since the dragons were originally one which split apart due to conflict between its trainer (the twin heroes), it means that as long as they're not one, such conflict remains, so probably all of them desire the conflict to end and when that happens, they'll fuse. So I actually agree with you in that it has a strong desire to fuse with Reshiram and Zekrom (and yes, you made me see that the Splicers might be Kyurem's manifestation of said desire). But that desire alone doesn't justify its methods of forcing a fusion. In the end, such strong desire is irrelevant when it comes to R&Z's will, who are the ones who decide when to fuse back. The fact that Kyurem is able to perform a fusion and force the other dragons into it, makes it somewhat of a renegade Pokémon towards R&Z, the fact that it achieves it via an object created by itself (accepting your thoery that tha Splicers are the manifestation of Kyurem's desire to fuse back) only worsens that and that is why that fusion we saw can't be considered an advance towards reuniting the Original Dragon.

    The entry says it "waits" for a hero to fill its body, not that it actively searches for them, let alone actively making others fuse with it. See? the Pokédex doesn't say that Kyurem actively attempts for to be caught by the hero or fuse with the other dragons, and that's where your theory fails- it simply waits. And what we saw is not Kyurem waiting to be summoned by the hero or its dragon counterparts, it attacks them; as for the DNA Splicers, if they are a manifestation of Kyurem's will to fuse with the other dragons, it is still an artifical way of fusing with them, since, as I've said many times before, a natural fusion would be triggered by Reshiram and/or Zekrom, not by Kyurem. When the hero appears, the Dragons will fuse together again willingly and on their own, no need for any item, not even if it was 'naturally' created by Kyurem, None of these situations are the case when using the Splicers.

    As for your point of "it was a forced fusion because it was controlled by Team Plasma at the time", Ghetsis doesn't order Kyurem to absorb N's dragon: Kyurem attacks it on its own account, and it is only after it's been turned back into the Light/Dark Stone that Ghetsis tells it to absorb the stone, but the fusion had already been started by Kyurem nevertheless. However, you might be right on this one, maybe under other circumstances, the dragon would have accepted to fuse without resistance and only this time it opposed to Kyurem because it knew it wasn't the right time and that Ghetsis wasn't the hero. But still, the fact that there is a fusion that can be achieved by Kyurem forcing the other dragons, makes me think that it would not be be perfect fusion (i.e. the Original Dragon). "The body is complete and Kyurem is full", you said, but I already said that being 'full' is not the only ingredient for restoring the Original Dragon (see my Majin Buu comparison above for more details about this, if you please); remember that the all is more than just the sum of its parts: cramming the parts together doesn't automatically means that it is complete, let alone perfect.

    Also, the Dex says it waits for its body to be filled "with truth and ideals", which is obviously a metaphor, thus it may not necessarily mean that it wants its body to be filled in with another Pokémon, just that it is searching for enlightment, given that Reshiram and Zekrom represent truth and ideals, but Kyurem doesn't represent anything; its essence is empty and so it might be searching for someone (a hero?) to enlighten it and fill its heart.


    As for your last question, the thing is that N's dragon doesn't "help" (as you said), it is merely used, which is different. Plus, It didn't sense the fusion happening, it sensed Kyurem suffering, it didn't come to the Chasm to help in the fusion, it came to liberate it from its suffering; I don't see where you 're trying to get with that question, so I'd appreciate some clarification from you in that regard.

    All in all, B/W Kyurem is not "halfway to the OD" as someone else said before, but a completely new creature, that is why it is listed as a Kyurem forme, not a separate Pokémon nor a Reshiram or Zekrom forme. Had the box mascots been called instead "Gray Reshiram" and "Gray Zekrom", I would say that yes, that creature is the first step to reuniting the Dragon, but that was not the case.


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  2. #407
    Monster Professor Dr. Mecha's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    There's also a theory that the Dragon's split consciences' took shape of their own being, while the empty corpse itself became Kyurem. Kyurem may be what the OD was without a conscience of its own, but Reshiram and Zekrom formed their own bodies, thus making it impossible for Kyurem to devour them both at the same time. There's might be a way in which the god stone could be forged from Kyurem's Ice. It would need to be filled with Truth in the form of Reshiram's flames, and Ideals in the form of Zekrom's electricity, for it to give birth to the new OD. This could mean that the Gene Wedge was their first attempt to reunite the OD with its spited consciences, but said consciences were now their own beings, thus making it impossible with said device.

    But as it stands, the OD is dead; Its' body, truth, and ideals are their own monsters now.
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  3. #408
    Your resident cynic. Wishmaker Jirachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    @VeggiePopper, I'll try and make this quick:

    Looks like I missed out on that small detail about N's Dragon sensing Kyurem's suffering. Does it not mean that the other two (much less Kyurem) can sense any of this kind of thing as well? It's entirely possible that the three still share that link. Unfortunately, only N is able to actually hear the thoughts of the Pokémon, so as to explain why the player characters didn't also assist in the final fight.

    When Kyurem attacks, isn't it the same that goes for most Legendary Pokémon? They are testing the trainer to see if they are capable of taking command of them! For Kyurem, it's a similar situation to the HGSS mascots - they do not simply go "Yeah, I'll come with you", they're seeing if the trainer has the "heart" or "soul" to command them, while Kyurem tests to see if the hero can continue the legend of Unova. Really, it can't simply say "I'll go with you" because that would:
    1. Make filling in the Pokédex much easier
    2. Wouldn't a lot of deities test you to see if you were worthy of something so powerful, divine or otherwise dangerous? It's not that hard to realise that a lot of things in life are earned, not simply obtained and taken for granted. It's very much a case of authority - do you have what it takes to reach the next level?

    Meanwhile, the fusion process...does it necessarily mean that all three or both of them have to be reunited at some point? It would probably mean that we'd have to see "Black 3 & White 3" or something similar due to the legend of Unova continuing, and as far as I'm concerned, Unova is over. Also, you DO realise that even though it attacked on its own accord, the process was initiated by Ghetsis using the DNA Splicers on Kyurem?

    I'm not going to argue any more about these points because I think there's more research that I can't be bothered to do. As an example, how the process of evolution and mutation has worked. If we compared Kyurem's fusion to that instead of Dragon Ball Z, perhaps there could be another explanation which might help to deduce it down further.
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    ...yeah, I think I'll just be done with the thread because in the end, only Game Freak knows the truth.
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  4. #409
    I! AM NOT! A MORON! Sith Droideka's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    Well, as far as I can tell from B2W2, the Unova legend is real (because of the DNA splicers and the ancient civilization being gone), and Kyurem is the original dragon's body, with Reshiram being its truth and Zekrom its ideals that drew parts of Original Kyurem's body with them to form their own independent beings. And I bet that Original Kyurem will show up again someday, possibly in a later game, in the same way that Regigigas did. There's more to the world than Unova, after all.
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  5. #410
    Serperior rules us all Catilena1890's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    Unova isn't "over" anymore than RBY were. Gold and Silver were originally set to be called "Pocket Monsters 2", and even though they lost that title they were STILL categorized as a sequel since Team Rocket made several references to RBY throughout the game. Technically, generation 1 and 2 are the same thing, they are actually bigger than the other 3 generations because it spans three years across 6 games. Unova has out-shined the Kanto/Johto saga because it spans FIVE years across four games, but unlike the Kanto/Johto Saga, Unova's plot has not been resolved. Ghetsis and the Shadow Triad are still out and about, and several characters make vague statements that Unova is far from finished. Hugh says that he's going to help the old Team Plasma return all of the stolen pokemon. Roxie's Dad still wants to try and get his acting career together.



    Unova won't be done until Ghetsis gets taken down once and for all. We thought he was done in Black and White, and that we'd get a third version featuring Kyurem with a slightly different storyline that was still pretty much Black and White. Instead, we got a pair of sequels that CONTINUED the storyline. If Unova's story was truly done, then wouldn't Ghetsis have been arrested? Or at the very least encountered post game with some crazy "I realize now that I was wrong, thank you for showing me that" bullcrap. No. He's still out and about, plotting for revenge against N, Hilbert/Hilda, and now Nate/Rosa.

    We're due for one more dip into Unova to stop Ghetsis once and for all. He's tried ruling through Reshiram/Zekrom, and he was foiled there because Hilbert/Hilda got in the way with their dragon. He's tried with Kyurem, and Nate/Rosa got in the way with the help of N's dragon *because there had to have been some restraint when we fought B/W Kyurem, because it was going to kill us before*, I think the next time we see Ghetsis, he's gonna be almost totally insane by now, and he'll go all out and try to steal the three dragons, make them into the Original Dragon, and then dare the next protagonist to try and stop him. THAT is why I believe we will see the OD. We heard plenty about it in Black and White, we got credibility in Black 2 and White 2, and now we are due to see the legend for ourselves. History repeats itself, especially in the pokemon world. We saw that in RSE with the orbs, and we saw some of it in BW with the whole "trainers are making pokemon suffer so we should release them!" crud, and since Ghetsis refuses to learn, we will def. see it again.

    Back to the topic at hand, yes, I am relying on a crotchety old bastard to see my own hopes come true. But it's not out of my own selfishness of seeing/owning a badass ultimate dragon that can go toe to toe with Arceus. The OD is, and always has been, important to the legend of Unova. If it was a one-time plot element made solely to explain the existence of the three dragons, then it would not have been as critical to the plot in the four games. Instead, we had to travel all over the region just to learn about the legend to try and stop the bad guys. There is still a lot that can be done with Unova, and it's all come down to the Original Dragon.

    And yes, the OD WILL need all three dragons to be revived. In a plot sense, if it were to be comprised solely of Reshiram/Zekrom, it would constantly be at war with itself just like it was BEFORE the split because of the conflicting ideas. It needs Kyurem's neutrality to balance it out and give it room in it's mind and soul to see that the two ideas aren't two separate ideas, but one whole lifestyle. If it had the capacity to combine the two it never would have split in the first place, and Zekrom/Reshiram would not have blindly followed the brothers into battle until they "killed" each other. Now that the three dragons have been made into separate entities and each lived their own lives, if all three were to come together they could BE a pokemon worthy of being Arceus's rival/counterpart. They could BE the Original Dragon and unite Unova once and for all in a prosperous future, living in harmony with the paths of Truth and Ideals being one.

  6. #411
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Catilena1890 View Post
    Unova won't be done until Ghetsis gets taken down once and for all. We thought he was done in Black and White, and that we'd get a third version featuring Kyurem with a slightly different storyline that was still pretty much Black and White. Instead, we got a pair of sequels that CONTINUED the storyline. If Unova's story was truly done, then wouldn't Ghetsis have been arrested? Or at the very least encountered post game with some crazy "I realize now that I was wrong, thank you for showing me that" bullcrap. No. He's still out and about, plotting for revenge against N, Hilbert/Hilda, and now Nate/Rosa.
    You haven't gotten to the part where the Shadow Triad are encountered at Icirrus, have you? Ghetsis isn't still out there plotting revenge; he's suffered a complete mental breakdown. As the Triad put it "He won't do anything. He can't do anything." The failure of his life's work and the failure of his only backup plan have broken his will.

    We're due for one more dip into Unova to stop Ghetsis once and for all. He's tried ruling through Reshiram/Zekrom, and he was foiled there because Hilbert/Hilda got in the way with their dragon. He's tried with Kyurem, and Nate/Rosa got in the way with the help of N's dragon *because there had to have been some restraint when we fought B/W Kyurem, because it was going to kill us before*, I think the next time we see Ghetsis, he's gonna be almost totally insane by now, and he'll go all out and try to steal the three dragons, make them into the Original Dragon, and then dare the next protagonist to try and stop him. THAT is why I believe we will see the OD. We heard plenty about it in Black and White, we got credibility in Black 2 and White 2, and now we are due to see the legend for ourselves. History repeats itself, especially in the pokemon world. We saw that in RSE with the orbs, and we saw some of it in BW with the whole "trainers are making pokemon suffer so we should release them!" crud, and since Ghetsis refuses to learn, we will def. see it again.
    And how exactly is he going to get the three dragons and fuse them when one is in a faraway region, all three of them are under the command of trainers who are stronger than him, he doesn't have any resources other than the ST, and a way to actually fuse the dragons doesn't exist?

    Unova as a region has been exhausted, GameFreak has claimed to be satisfied with BW2, and the 3DS is waiting. If we ever see the OD, it will have to be in Gen 6 as a Regigigas-esque Pokemon.

  7. #412
    Registered User MVKone's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    I can honestly see Game Freak including the "Original Dragon" in a later game, whether it be in Gen 6 (a la Regigigas in Gen 4), or in a B3W3/Gray Version, or even in a potential RSE remake. The story is too rich (by main series game standards) to just let go and forget about.
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  8. #413
    Conformity is Overrated. Phoenix502's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    I read the first page, and I read the last current page... if a debate goes on for 28 pages, I feel like Gamefreak trolled me on a couple things...

    I saw earlier pages mentioning of Arceus... which kinda reminds me. if there WAS an original third form, would it have been a secret event sort of thing? something a hacker would have already found by now?

    gah, I don't know why i read these debates, at least in this game's wild mass guessing section you get some funny "wtf" speculations

  9. #414
    Dark Soul Takaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    If there was to be one, we could check if it was planned as a BW2 event because they have to leave a space for it in the coding of the game. Sadly there is no space.
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  10. #415
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    With the advent of DLC, I think we'll be seeing less "hidden secrets" in the game coding of future games. I don't think space would be an issue.

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  11. #416
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by smalllady View Post
    With the advent of DLC, I think we'll be seeing less "hidden secrets" in the game coding of future games. I don't think space would be an issue.
    Sadly, with DLC you have to have a built in hardrive for the space, and I highly doubt that the original DS (in which the game cartridge was built for) have a hardrive. DSi and 3DS do have a built in hardrive (with SD card compatibility for extra space), but I don't think the DS cartridge was that access to the memory format of those DLCs. The best bet is to wait until a new generation of Pokemon games were release ONLY for the 3DS.
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  12. #417
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    Yes, that's why I said "future games," and not "current games."

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    70% Critical Hit Rate Stratago's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

    That'd be nice, I think. I'm a little tired of finding out about 'secret' Pokemon that aren't going to be available until an event or whatever before the game even launches. They're supposed to be a surprise, so I think they should be.

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  14. #419
    The Original Sylveon The Guardian Sylveon's Avatar
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    Default If the Original Dragon were to be revealed...

    Hey how is everyone doing I just have a question that's been bothering me for sometime now and the question is if the Original Dragon were to be revealed would it be its own separate species or just an ultimate form of Kyurem. I would like to see your thoughts on this. I simply just think it would be some sort of ultimate Kyurem form I doubt they'd make it a separate species but that's just my opinion.

    Thanks for reading

  15. #420
    Soul of the Trees Forest Spirit's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the Original Dragon were to be revealed...

    Two words:




    GRAY KYUREM

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