Thread: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

Originally Posted by El_

Originally Posted by Zistal

Originally Posted by El_

As for it matching Arceus, I fail to see why thats a problem at all. Arceus only represents one type of a God, Taiji/Tao is God in a different belief system, so there is no problem.

The problem is that while Taiji/Tao serves as the inspiration for the Unova mascots, none of them actually hold sway over those concepts in-universe; they're just regional legendaries who can zap, burn, and freeze things on a large scale, no better than the likes of Lugia and Ho-Oh. Having statistical power on-par with the likes of Arceus who is a cosmic god seemingly capable of obliterating them with a single thought in a real fight, is arbitrary power creep at its finest.

True, but couldn't one say the same for Lugia/Ho-oh having the same BST as Dialga/Palkia/Giratina? I don't think that BST is "overall" important when it comes to in-universe feats. It is important, but not all important.

Who knows though, maybe the Sinnoh legends aren't the Gods we make them out to be, or at least as powerful as we think.

As far as I know, Arceus is only capable of making Matter that makes up the universes, while Palkia and Dialga shaped it with their Space/Time manipulation (Giratina's purpose is still unknown). While it have the ability to create ANYTHING out of thin air, it does not have the ability to control it.

Also I believe that Cyrus did found out why we couldn't have complete control of time and space when we caught those Monsters in a legal fashion.

Originally Posted by El_

True, but couldn't one say the same for Lugia/Ho-oh having the same BST as Dialga/Palkia/Giratina? I don't think that BST is "overall" important when it comes to in-universe feats. It is important, but not all important.

Who knows though, maybe the Sinnoh legends aren't the Gods we make them out to be, or at least as powerful as we think.

Yes you could. Dialga/Palkia/Giratina having the same BST as them has always kind of annoyed me, but c'est la vie.

And I'd say Sinnoh legends were proven with that crazy event in HGSS.

Originally Posted by Zistal

Originally Posted by El_

True, but couldn't one say the same for Lugia/Ho-oh having the same BST as Dialga/Palkia/Giratina? I don't think that BST is "overall" important when it comes to in-universe feats. It is important, but not all important.

Who knows though, maybe the Sinnoh legends aren't the Gods we make them out to be, or at least as powerful as we think.

Yes it could. Dialga/Palkia/Giratina having the same BST as them has always kind of annoyed me, but c'est la vie.

And I'd say Sinnoh legends were proven with that crazy event in HGSS.

What we saw is a ritual in which Arceus gave birth to the beings of Space/Time/Antimatter.

Originally Posted by Dr. Mecha

What we saw is a ritual in which Arceus gave birth to the beings of Space/Time/Antimatter.

That and the fourth wall being broken.

Originally Posted by Zistal

Originally Posted by Dr. Mecha

What we saw is a ritual in which Arceus gave birth to the beings of Space/Time/Antimatter.

That and the fourth wall being broken.

More like stock footage of how it sees the world (the monster world isn't that much different from ours). Besides, I viewed it as censorship.

Originally Posted by El_

Originally Posted by Zistal

Originally Posted by El_

As for it matching Arceus, I fail to see why thats a problem at all. Arceus only represents one type of a God, Taiji/Tao is God in a different belief system, so there is no problem.

The problem is that while Taiji/Tao serves as the inspiration for the Unova mascots, none of them actually hold sway over those concepts in-universe; they're just regional legendaries who can zap, burn, and freeze things on a large scale, no better than the likes of Lugia and Ho-Oh. Having statistical power on-par with the likes of Arceus who is a cosmic god seemingly capable of obliterating them with a single thought in a real fight, is arbitrary power creep at its finest.

True, but couldn't one say the same for Lugia/Ho-oh having the same BST as Dialga/Palkia/Giratina? I don't think that BST is "overall" important when it comes to in-universe feats. It is important, but not all important.

Who knows though, maybe the Sinnoh legends aren't the Gods we make them out to be, or at least as powerful as we think.

Here's the thing that strikes me dumb: Don't the Poké Ball variants have a power limiter on them? Granted, that doesn't explain why they're only as strong in the wild as when they're inside the ball (or for that matter, why N's Pokémon (that technically shouldn't be in Poké Balls) aren't so much stronger than you) but could it be possible that the Poké Ball you caught that specific Pokémon in limits their power to a controllable state? Same could be said for all Pokémon (in order to make sure they don't go berserk, as Mewtwo's Berserk Gene in Generation II might show you...)

And to make sure all trainers don't do something like when Team Plasma froze half of the Unova Region in B2W2. These so-called 10 year olds may be responsible, but they may not be THAT responsible! Lord knows what would happen if all the Player Characters removed the power limiter on their Legendary Pokémon Poké Balls and let them all go berserk on their respective regions...

Then again, the power limiter could merely be just a control device which restricts the Pokémon from going Level 100 immediately, if we're talking gameplay wise.

It is indeed implied that Pokeballs limit potential, as thats one of the reasons why N hates them so much. Cyrus also hinted at the concept in DPP.

As for the BST thing, lest not forget that Dragonite and its bros have a higher BST than legendaries like the Lake trio, Kami that control the weather, and is equal to Pokemon that can grant wishes and time travel. BST is just not always a good measurement at all to in game feats, and it shouldn't be a factor that keeps the OD from matching Arceus.

Especially when B/W Kyurem have already surpassed the creation trio in BST anyways.

Originally Posted by El_

It is indeed implied that Pokeballs limit potential, as thats one of the reasons why N hates them so much. Cyrus also hinted at the concept in DPP.

As for the BST thing, lest not forget that Dragonite and its bros have a higher BST than legendaries like the Lake trio, Kami that control the weather, and is equal to Pokemon that can grant wishes and time travel. BST is just not always a good measurement at all to in game feats, and it shouldn't be a factor that keeps the OD from matching Arceus.

Especially when B/W Kyurem have already surpassed the creation trio in BST anyways.

Well, that's definitely true. Could their true power be calculated not only on sheer strength? I imagine it would be a combination of factors - like a Pokémon's strength or power alongside their divine abilities, a scale of each (in which Arceus would rank highly on both given his status).

Technically Kyurem was worse than the Creation Trio, but gained the strength it needed thanks to the Tao Trio member it fused with, and their combined energy is what made the power skyrocket.

if all three were to combind that would mean it would be a quad type, fire, ice, electric, and dragon or it could just be a dragon/ice or dragon/fire or dragon/electric.

I'm pretty sure it won't be a quad type. Currently, Pokemon have only two types. It may not even have a second type and just be Dragon or Dragon and some other type. It's hard to predict exactly what would happen with the Original Dragon.

Originally Posted by Dr. Mecha

As far as I know, Arceus is only capable of making Matter that makes up the universes, while Palkia and Dialga shaped it with their Space/Time manipulation (Giratina's purpose is still unknown). While it have the ability to create ANYTHING out of thin air, it does not have the ability to control it.

Also I believe that Cyrus did found out why we couldn't have complete control of time and space when we caught those Monsters in a legal fashion.

Well.. When Arceus created the Pokemon World, it created time and space along with it, and gave the powers of time and space to Dialga and Palkia to guard it (as mentioned in the anime that Dialga and Palkia are the guardians of Time and Space). Giratina serves the purpose of guarding Antimatter, but was banished to the Distortion World because of its uncontrollable violence. Giratina created the Distortion World as a balance of the real world, as everything there is the opposite to real world physics.

Originally Posted by Poke-King

if all three were to combind that would mean it would be a quad type, fire, ice, electric, and dragon or it could just be a dragon/ice or dragon/fire or dragon/electric.

As it's been said many times here, to have Triple type Pokémon is not feasible at this point. I'd grant expanding the moveslot to five or even six moves per 'mon, but not triple typings, let alone quadruple. Since the OD is supposed to represent unity and pureness. it would actually be the other way around: a single type, a pure Dragon, or even a Normal type to represent its neutrality; after all, we've had Pokémon that are called or at least considered 'dragons' without actually being of the Dragon type: Charizard, Gyarados, Aerodactyl... so we can have a dragon being just a Normal type Pokémon.

Anyways, the actual reason I'm posting here is because there's something from this thread that has always called my attention: people have likened how the OD would work to Dragon Ball Z (an analogy I like, being a DB nerd), but everybody relates it to Cell (as in, Kyurem absorbing the other two dragons just like Cell needs to absorb the other two androids to be 'perfect'), but I think that conception is wrong and that it actually works in a different way: in DBZ, Cell has to absorb the other Androids because he's the one seeking to be perfect, Cell is somehow the basis to the perfect android, whereas Kyurem is NOT the basis for the OD, but the opposite: he's the leftovers (the empty shell, the vessel, are the terms used here). BW1 clearly explain that the basis to the OD are Reshiram and Zekrom, Kyurem was created because of the split, as some kind of weird side effect, (which can explain why Kyurem appeared within the Giant Chasm when the other two dragons appeared together at the Dragonspiral Tower). That's why the DNA Splicers allow Kyurem to absorb only one of the other dragons, but not the two: Kyurem is not the original dragon, and thus, it can't absorb the other two simultaneously, just one at a time. Kyurem itself wouldn't resist it, since it is weaker than the other two because of its 'leftover-y' nature. Even if it could ever absorb both dragons, I think the result would NOT be the OD, but something else: Kyurem might have been part of the OD, but as its vessel, not as its conscience, whereas in BW2 we saw that when Kyurem absorbs another dragon, Kyurem stays as the dominant conscience, inconsistant to its origins as a vessel for the OD.

Instead of Cell, OD and its formes and splits mirror Majin Buu: in Buu's case, he also splits himself into several entities - Fat Buu, Thin Buu, Super Buu and Kid Buu, the latter being the original and pure Majin Buu. Fat Buu and Thin Buu can exist as separate beings (just like Reshiram and Zekrom) or together, but even when they re-fuse, the resultant fused form depends on who absobs who, the 'absorber' being the one whose conscience dominates the fused Majin (although the absorbed one still has limited control over its absorber, not unlike N's dragon still being recognizable within B/W Kyurem), so, to become perfect, pure, Majin Buu, certain requirements had to be met when the Buu's fuse together. In a similar fashion, in order for the OD to be restored to its former self, it's not only important that the three Dragons fuse together, but that they fuse in a certain, specific way, and Kyurem absorbing them is certainly NOT that correct way.

Since Kyuremm is just an empty shell, it doesn't share the OD's conscience, which Reshiram and Zekron do share. Thus, Kyurem needs not to be the dominant Pokémon in the fusion process. My theory is that for the OD to be restored, Reshiram and Zekrom need to fuse naturally (instead of via a technological device such as the DNA Splicers), and then, the resulting dragon would need to fuse with, or absorb, Kyurem. I think that unlike the other two, Kyurem can be merely absorbed because since Kyurem is just an empty shell, it doesn't share the OD's mind (i.e. it's conscience and memories); actually, given that Kyurem is only the leftovers created from the split, it might not even be needed at all; after all, we are told several times that the Original Dragon split into Reshiram and Zekrom, not into Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem; all we know is that Kyurem appeared at the same time the other two split, but not that it was part of the OD, for all we know, it might be just the scraps, and like a Ninjask (the original nincada Pokémon) doesn't need its Shedinja to exist, it is possible that actually there is no need for Kyurem to fuse with the other two to restore the original dragon, like a placenta when a baby is born: the placenta is a product of the birth, but it is not part of the baby nor the mother, and none of them need it to live. Following this line of thought, Kyurem wasn't even part of the OD, it just was created as a side efect of the split process (like the placenta and the Shedinja). For all we know, Kyurem is nothing but living debris. But I'll give Kyurem the benefit of doubt and still include it in the restored OD (after all, it is the boundary Pokémon, it might be needed to 'contain' the resulting R&Z fusion), just that the dominant Pokémon must be 'Reshikrom' (that is, the resultant Reshiram and Zekrom together), not Kyurem like it was in BW2.

So far, my conclusions about Kyurem and the Original Dragon are as follows:

1) Perfect Kyurem does not exist, and if it exists, it is definitely not the Original Dragon.
2) In consequence, the Original Dragon is not a Kyurem forme, but a separate species that we're still yet to know (i.e. a different Pokédex number); hopefully it appears in a future game.
3) For the OD to be restored, Reshiram and Zekrom need to fuse together, not be absorbed. Kyurem might or might not be needed.


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Regarding Genesect's original forme, I think that, just like in Kyurem's case, if we ever get it, it won't be a forme, but a separate Pokémon altogether. Think of Mew and Mewtwo: just like Genesect, Mewtwo is an artificially altered Pokémon,a nd since there are lots of differences between them, Mewtwo is a separate species, instead of a different Mew forme. Similar to this, Genesect was artificially created from the genes of another Pokémon, but was altered in the process and as a result, the artifical Pokémon doesn't resemble its original Pokémon much (Mewtwo was made bigger, stronger and more agressive; Genesect was covered in steel and a cannon was put on its back, that's enough to distinguish itself from the Pokémon it derives from). If we ever get to know the unaltered Genesect, it will undoubtedly be a different species, with a different name and a different Pokédex number (and most probably also different BST and movepool), just like Mew and Mewtwo are separated Pokémon despite one being an altered from of the other.

Originally Posted by VeggiePopper

Since Kyuremm is just an empty shell, it doesn't share the OD's conscience, which Reshiram and Zekron do share. Thus, Kyurem needs not to be the dominant Pokémon in the fusion process. My theory is that for the OD to be restored, Reshiram and Zekrom need to fuse naturally (instead of via a technological device such as the DNA Splicers), and then, the resulting dragon would need to fuse with, or absorb, Kyurem. I think that unlike the other two, Kyurem can be merely absorbed because since Kyurem is just an empty shell, it doesn't share the OD's mind (i.e. it's conscience and memories); actually, given that Kyurem is only the leftovers created from the split, it might not even be needed at all; after all, we are told several times that the Original Dragon split into Reshiram and Zekrom, not into Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem; all we know is that Kyurem appeared at the same time the other two split, but not that it was part of the OD, for all we know, it might be just the scraps, and like a Ninjask (the original nincada Pokémon) doesn't need its Shedinja to exist, it is possible that actually there is no need for Kyurem to fuse with the other two to restore the original dragon, like a placenta when a baby is born: the placenta is a product of the birth, but it is not part of the baby nor the mother, and none of them need it to live. Following this line of thought, Kyurem wasn't even part of the OD, it just was created as a side efect of the split process (like the placenta and the Shedinja). For all we know, Kyurem is nothing but living debris. But I'll give Kyurem the benefit of doubt and still include it in the restored OD (after all, it is the boundary Pokémon, it might be needed to 'contain' the resulting R&Z fusion), just that the dominant Pokémon must be 'Reshikrom' (that is, the resultant Reshiram and Zekrom together), not Kyurem like it was in BW2.

I want to ask a few things about this paragraph. First, the bold (unmarked spoiler alert for discussion purposes!):
Since when was there any evidence that the DNA Splicers were a technological innovation? They could very well have been what was previously the unused God Stone in Black & White, and therefore an item that existed before Kyurem was caught by Ghetsis. Notice its animation in-game started with a grey spherical stone, and it eventually became an item with accents of both Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem's colours - the ice blue of Kyurem, the white of Reshiram, the black of Zekrom and Kyurem's horn on the top. Note the Pokédex entry as well - the Pokémon is said to have waited for someone to fill its body with "truth or ideals" - indicating that using the DNA Splicers is something that Kyurem had been waiting for.

Drayden says that it's been passed down through his family when he gives it to you in Opelucid City...shortly before the Shadow Triad steals it from the hands of the player. If the legend of Kyurem was known by everyone as fact to the point that there could be technology developed to theoretically bring Reshiram & Zekrom back together or even just overall Pokémon fusion, wouldn't they have done so to create a unified Unova once more and/or have world terror due to the possibilities of handling such technology and the consequences of irresponsibility in using it?

For the rest of that paragraph quote, I'd agree with the fact that the OD, if ever coming back into existence, has to be Reshiram and Zekrom as the main focus, not Kyurem.

Originally Posted by Wishmaker Jirachi

I want to ask a few things about this paragraph. First, the bold (unmarked spoiler alert for discussion purposes!):
Since when was there any evidence that the DNA Splicers were a technological innovation? They could very well have been what was previously the unused God Stone in Black & White, and therefore an item that existed before Kyurem was caught by Ghetsis. Notice its animation in-game started with a grey spherical stone, and it eventually became an item with accents of both Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem's colours - the ice blue of Kyurem, the white of Reshiram, the black of Zekrom and Kyurem's horn on the top. Note the Pokédex entry as well - the Pokémon is said to have waited for someone to fill its body with "truth or ideals" - indicating that using the DNA Splicers is something that Kyurem had been waiting for.

Drayden says that it's been passed down through his family when he gives it to you in Opelucid City...shortly before the Shadow Triad steals it from the hands of the player. If the legend of Kyurem was known by everyone as fact to the point that there could be technology developed to theoretically bring Reshiram & Zekrom back together or even just overall Pokémon fusion, wouldn't they have done so to create a unified Unova once more and/or have world terror due to the possibilities of handling such technology and the consequences of irresponsibility in using it?

By "technological device" I meant "human-made", the Splicers might be ancient technology, but it's still techonolgy (take the invention of the wheel, for example). Indeed, it is an ancient device, since it's been passed by Drayden's family throughout the generations, but still looked human made to me. Even if that were the case that the DNA Splicers are not human made, as I said (and you agreed with that part), R&Z should be the main focus of the fusion, and this wasn't the case: the Splicers make KYUREM the main focus of the so-called "fusion" (it is K who absorbs N's dragon when it should be the other way around).

And finally, and most important, my complete sentence reads "Reshiram and Zekrom need to fuse naturally (instead of via a technological device such as the DNA Splicers)", the focus was "fuse naturally", and even if the DNA Splicers were not human made (which I doubt), the fusion cutscene don't looked natural at all: first, because it wasn't triggered by the Pokémon themselves, but by the Splicers (if the OD split at its own will, being as powerful as it is, one would assume it achieved such feat without external help, being natural or human, and as such, to reunite it wouldn't need such 'help' either), which artificially enhance Kyurem, and second, because, as we already agreed, R&Z should be the protagonist of the fusion, and in the cutscene N's dragon is unwilling to fuse with Kyurem, it is forced into the fusion and it even suffers from that process. That doesn't sound like how the magnificent Original Dragon would reunite itself, does it?'

That's why I firmly believe that the DNA Splicers were created by people who tried, attempted or at least wanted, to reunite the Pokémon, but since R&Z were unavailable to study (as they only appear to the chosen ones and when not, they rest as the Light and Dark Stones), all they could come up with was a device that allowed Kyurem to absorb (one of) the other dragons. Why would nature allow such an imperfect fusion? If the DNA S. were naturaly created, they would work by letting Reshiram and/or Zekrom absorb their counterparts, not the other way around, don't you think?

It's not like the theory's even complete, @VeggiePopper - the DNA Splicers could have been created along with Kyurem itself. What you might be missing in the post I made is the Pokédex entry for Kyurem - it states that it waits for a hero to fill its body with truth or ideals, which is where my theory stands. Kyurem's DNA Splicers could very well be a manifestation of this will created when Kyurem was created. If the Original Dragon myth is to be believed alongside Kyurem's creation being an empty shell of the Original Dragon's existence, then Kyurem has some remants of the Original Dragon (the Pokédex entry states about a hero. That hero could well be referring to those who took control of Reshiram/Zekrom (who technically becomes the hero of legend), the player character or N), and still links to Reshiram & Zekrom through it. They aren't called the DNA Splicers for no reason.

Kyurem forcing the fusion against the other Dragon's will might simply have been because it was under control of Team Plasma at the time. If anything, that's why the wings of Kyurem exist in the first place alongside the DNA Splicers which enable it to absorb the Dragons.
Also, how are the Splicers human-made when it could absorb the aura and energy around it much like the Light/Dark Stones do when the Pokémon resulting from it are summoned at Dragonspiral Tower/N's Castle? I'm not sure if any human device in the Pokémon world has enough power to do that...of course, we have the Red Chain from Sinnoh but that's an unused plot in the games much like the God Stone. Since Kyurem had waited for a hero to come, the DNA Splicers were probably created for the hero to use themselves to make Kyurem whole again, rather than Kyurem just seeking out the Pokémon itself.

The whole "imperfect fusion" thing is not necessarily because the fusion is unnatural; it's probably because, referring back to the Pokédex entry again, it waited for a hero to fill its body with truth or ideals. It might not be an absolutely faithful Original Dragon, but the body is "complete" - Kyurem is "full" in other words. Anymore wouldn't work due to the legend of Unova which would probably have prevented them from fusing in the first place; the whole reason for the Original Dragon's split was the battle between the brothers that created the Unova Region, with one of the two being victorious and shaping Unova into what it is now. If the legend fast forwards itself after all three are caught by the protagonists of the four games, that's another theory entirely - whether they'll fight for Unova once more or unite together as one for a complete Unova where, as N says, the truth and ideals will come together.

In short, whether or not we see the Original Dragon might not ever be seen until we can see the protagonists of Black & White and Black 2 & White 2 meeting face-to-face with their Dragons, with the legacy of the brothers' fight being determined once and for all in their confrontation. The truth and ideals are still at odds; the Original Dragon will not come forth by force. Only if the two that command these dragons unite as one to unite Unova once and for all will the Original Dragon have a chance to appear at all...(cue Ghetsis' return and using something to take control of the new Original Dragon)

Late edit: Of course, if you could force them together, would it entail the help of another Pokémon who could sense this happening?