Thread: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

Originally Posted by Jun

Gen 6 will probably have its own theme, Original Dragon is Unova's theme, I don't want another useless Regigigas..
I was thinking about a "BW3" with Original Dragon, but I can't speak about a random BW3 without BW2's script.
So now I think about an event. A Secret Event, like Arceus in DP.

The problem with that is that there is no coding in Black and White for any more Pokemon after Genesect in the Pokedex, who is a "secret event" just like Arceus at this point. I don't think they'll add new Pokemon mid-generation, especially one just 1.

Originally Posted by voicerocker

I think the Original Dragon is just a myth and we'll never see it in-game. It would make little sense to introduce it in Gen 6 as a Pokemon like that would be very important and need to be included in this Gen to keep the story together. I don't see them running the same storyline with the same Pokemon into a 2nd gen. (I know Regigigas was introduced in a later Gen. but the Regis aren't important to the main story of those games either.)

Just one detail though... the tao trio doesn't have a "trio master" (unless Kyurem is an internal trio master). Alright... nothing's saying that it needs one, but all other trios have one. And introducing it in a later generation is not that unusual... we had Lugia introduced a generation later, then we have Regigas introduced a generation later. I don't really think importance to the story makes much difference. Arceus himself was important to the Generation IV story (well, the mythology / backstory) but he wasn't even obtainable except through some event.

Originally Posted by voicerocker

The problem with that is that there is no coding in Black and White for any more Pokemon after Genesect in the Pokedex, who is a "secret event" just like Arceus at this point. I don't think they'll add new Pokemon mid-generation, especially one just 1.

Two ways of handling that:
- Code it into B2 / W2 (or B3 / W3 if such sequels were to exist... but I feel that's getting a bit carried away) and then just make it not tradable back to Black / White. In other words, it would be sort of a "Generation 5 and a half" Pokémon.
Such a thing has never been done before, but similar stuff has been done with items (the GS Ball, for example).
- Make it an alternate forme of Kyurem... a "perfect" forme. Think DBZ... Cell's perfect form could only be achieved by absorbing Android 17 and 18. In a way, he was no longer Cell at all, but a combination of those 3 beings (yet he was still called "Cell"). It could be the same way with Kyurem... even though the original dragon isn't truly Kyurem but a combination of Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem... maybe he could still be called "Kyurem" if Kyurem is the one absorbing the others. (Except there's no evidence that any absorbtion is even going to occur)

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Just one detail though... the tao trio doesn't have a "trio master" (unless Kyurem is an internal trio master). Alright... nothing's saying that it needs one, but all other trios have one. And introducing it in a later generation is not that unusual... we had Lugia introduced a generation later, then we have Regigas introduced a generation later. I don't really think importance to the story makes much difference. Arceus himself was important to the Generation IV story (well, the mythology / backstory) but he wasn't even obtainable except through some event.

Rayquaza serves as "trio master" in Hoenn. Mesprit, Uxie and Azelf have no master, unless you were to count Arceus, but it is already tied to the Sinnoh dragons. Lugia isn't directly related to the Kanto birds either, only in the 2nd movie. In Gold, Silver, Crystal and HG/SS, Lugia has nothing to do with the birds. And again, the Regis were not a part of the direct main storyline, so having Regigigas added later wasn't a big deal. But again with Arceus, it was still part of Gen 4, and even if it was only available through events, it is still available.

Since the Unova dragons all revolve around Taoism, it would be rather pointless to just add the Original Dragon to Gen 6, which will be based on something else. It would be GF basically saying "Just put it in there somewhere".

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Two ways of handling that:
- Code it into B2 / W2 (or B3 / W3 if such sequels were to exist... but I feel that's getting a bit carried away) and then just make it not tradable back to Black / White. In other words, it would be sort of a "Generation 5 and a half" Pokémon.
Such a thing has never been done before, but similar stuff has been done with items (the GS Ball, for example).
- Make it an alternate forme of Kyurem... a "perfect" forme. Think DBZ... Cell's perfect form could only be achieved by absorbing Android 17 and 18. In a way, he was no longer Cell at all, but a combination of those 3 beings (yet he was still called "Cell"). It could be the same way with Kyurem... even though the original dragon isn't truly Kyurem but a combination of Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem... maybe he could still be called "Kyurem" if Kyurem is the one absorbing the others. (Except there's no evidence that any absorbtion is even going to occur)

Then the OD would be useless in B/W. Since Freeze Shock and Ice Burn were coded into B/W, compatibility has already been accounted for, so adding another Pokemon and making it non-compatible with the previous games (especially with it being a Legendary Dragon that everyone would want to use) wouldn't make much sense.

Making another forme for Kyurem wouldn't work well either, that would make the other 3 formes seem rather pointless. Having a perfect forme implies that it would be superior to the other formes. Why use Kyurem's normal forme, Black Kyurem, or White Kyurem when you can just have the Ultimate Forme? Still Kyurem is not suggested to be the Original Dragon in the games, that's only fan speculation. That is how Kyurem is different than Cell. And considering that Wuji and Taiji are direct opposites, with Kyurem and its formes representing Wuji or a combination of either Yin or Yang, a being associated with Taiji would have to be a totally different creature in being absent of Wuji.

Personally, I don't think the Original Dragon will ever be attainable. Maybe we'll see pictures of it in BW2, but I seriously doubt it will be another Kyurem forme. Kyurem has never officially been confirmed to be the corpse of the Original.

I also doubt that the Original Dragon will count as an Arceus/trio master. The point of a master is to keep the trio in balance, and the Tao trio clearly are not.

Man... If there's no spare data on the cartridge for a 'Perfect' forme that pretty much means there won't be one... no matter how much sense I think it would make...
Awww... I wanted Kyurem to have a cool 'this is how I'm supposed to be' forme, rather than a busted frozen chicken or a quazimodo-mutant. That bums me out.

Originally Posted by Stratago

Man... If there's no spare data on the cartridge for a 'Perfect' forme that pretty much means there won't be one... no matter how much sense I think it would make...
Awww... I wanted Kyurem to have a cool 'this is how I'm supposed to be' forme, rather than a busted frozen chicken or a quazimodo-mutant. That bums me out.

First, it's spelled 'Quasimodo', with a s not a z. Call me a HoND nerd if you want, I won't mind.

Second, we have no flippen idea if Kyurem is even the original dragon. There is no confirmation on it. And for all we know, maybe the original dragon is just about as 'ugly' as you described Kyurem.

Originally Posted by voicerocker

I think the Original Dragon is just a myth and we'll never see it in-game. It would make little sense to introduce it in Gen 6 as a Pokemon like that would be very important and need to be included in this Gen to keep the story together. I don't see them running the same storyline with the same Pokemon into a 2nd gen. (I know Regigigas was introduced in a later Gen. but the Regis aren't important to the main story of those games either.)

Here's what I think: The Original Dragon doesn't need to be an obtainable Pokemon to represent Taiji (the whole) since that's what its legend explains. Simply by saying "Reshiram and Zekrom use to be 1 Pokemon" validates what it represents, which means it doesn't have to really exist in-game. Plus, remember that the Dragon's legend makes no mention of a 3rd Pokemon coming from the split or of Kyurem at all. Kyurem's connection to Reshiram and Zekrom is only because of what aspect of Taoism they represent, not that they were originally 1 dragon.

If Kyurem had a more powerful forme, we would have seen it by now and it would make no sense for us to get 2 sequels with the same Pokemon on the cover of both in 2 different formes if there was another waiting. I just think the Original Dragon story was used to explain the Taoism relation in an interesting way and relate the events of the legend with the battle between N and the PC.

It is undeniable canon fact that the Original Dragon existed physically. The game explicitly states as such. BW2 do not have to be that compatible with BW, as BW2 are not third versions but completely new games, so the Original Dragon does not need be be compatible with it.

I agree on Kyurem though, but the conflict of Unova won't be completely resolved unless the Original Dragon makes a reappearance. They can easily program a #650 in BW2's coding if they want to. They gave everyone a Spikey Eared Pichu which can't be traded in its own generation either, surely the Original Dragon is not out of the question.

Originally Posted by Isamu Akai

Originally Posted by Stratago

Man... If there's no spare data on the cartridge for a 'Perfect' forme that pretty much means there won't be one... no matter how much sense I think it would make...
Awww... I wanted Kyurem to have a cool 'this is how I'm supposed to be' forme, rather than a busted frozen chicken or a quazimodo-mutant. That bums me out.

First, it's spelled 'Quasimodo', with a s not a z. Call me a HoND nerd if you want, I won't mind.

Second, we have no flippen idea if Kyurem is even the original dragon. There is no confirmation on it. And for all we know, maybe the original dragon is just about as 'ugly' as you described Kyurem.

I don't know how many times I've said that Kyurem IS NOT the Original Dragon; all three of them are the Original One, and I think that through Kyurem, due to it's Perfect Emptiness, the Original One could be 'reborn', at which time it would stop being Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem and become (whatever the Original One's name is). Again, I'm referring to it as 'Perfect Kyurem' because nobody knows the proper name.
I personally think that the Original One will look something like a cross of the three of them. The prominent features of Zekrom and Reshiram (their head-tails, wings, 'armor', tails, etc) compliment each other very well, and merging their two images would... I wish I had a scanner; I'd just draw it and then you'd see what I was talking about; I can't describe it very well. In any case, if you put Kyurem's features over that (it's jaw-'armor', assorted spikes and whatnot) it would also fit. That's what the Original One would look like.
The spellchecker caught my spelling of QuaSimodo's name, but since it also tells me that every time I enter a Pokemon's name it's misspelled, I didn't really think about it. Concerning that, though, as someone who claims they won't mind if I disrespect them for being OCD about something, you may want to acknowledge that it's OK for me to be OCD about this. It's just my opinion. I don't know why everyone is so keen on saying 'you're wrong' rather than 'that's interesting; how about this?'

Oh, I guess I must have kept misreading something. Sorry, it doesn't help when your posts are, no offense, a wall of text every time. It's hard to read and to stay focused. It'd help if you'd actually separate your posts into paragraphs.

Well anyway, I don't believe that they are all the original dragon NOW. Sure they ONCE were, but not anymore. They're separate entities that came as a result of the original dragon splitting itself, and I'm quite sure that's what the games make them out to be as well.

Either way, I don't see why Kyurem would have special rights having a form that resembles the original dragon. Frankly it makes more sense that the original dragon would be re-formed if all three dragons had fused together.

Originally Posted by Isamu Akai

Frankly it makes more sense that the original dragon would be re-formed if all three dragons had fused together.

No one's saying they can't fuse together...

As for the compatibility issue, it makes sense to not be compatible because at the point in the story in which Black / White take place, the original dragon no longer existed and hadn't been re-formed yet.

If somehow the three merge in Black 2 / White 2 it wouldn't make sense to be able to send him to a game which he wouldn't have yet existed in.

However, I do think that they probably would have thought about that ahead of time and added the compatibility anyway (typically, they don't really care a lot about making sense... you can tell by the fact that Kangaskhan are born with babies already in them and Chansey is born already holding an egg).
But I'm still not conviced that it's not reasonable for it to appear in Generation VI.

I wasn't saying that the original dragon should exist again, I was just saying that it could exist if the Tao trio were to fuse. If anything, the original dragon is the past, and the past should be kept as the past. That's like saying GF should reveal to us what the original forms of Entei, Raikou, and Suicune looked like before they died and were reincarnated by Ho-Oh. That's the past.

Originally Posted by Stratago

I don't know how many times I've said that Kyurem IS NOT the Original Dragon; all three of them are the Original One, and I think that through Kyurem, due to it's Perfect Emptiness, the Original One could be 'reborn', at which time it would stop being Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem and become (whatever the Original One's name is). Again, I'm referring to it as 'Perfect Kyurem' because nobody knows the proper name.

Oh, I get you now. I honestly misinterpreted your original post. This is basically the exact same as Silktree's theory on Kyurem channeling the spirit of the Original Dragon, which would not result in a "forme" per say but rather like a placeholder for a brand new Dragon Pokemon altogether.

Yeah, Perfect Kyurem kinda threw me off since I don't view Kyurem as the Original Dragon, and its movie states that it was born at the same time as Reshiram/Zekrom. But the way that you described its emptiness fits perfectly, as it could channel the Original Dragon like an Avatar of sorts.

N's Puzzle Cube and the hologram of the Pokemon inside of it is speculated to be a part of this mystery.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Originally Posted by Isamu Akai

Dragon skeleton (Kyurem) =/= Original dragon.

Also, the idea that Kyurem is the remains of the original dragon is a fan theory, it has not been officially confirmed. And really, it just makes more sense that the original dragon would be its own Pokemon species. Maybe for Gen 6 or something, but it's also doubtful that Game Freak will revisit it.

Reshiram and Zekrom are the two halves of the original dragon... I find it hard to believe that Kyurem is a completely separate being altogether (being in the same trio with them, as opposed to them being a duo and Kyurem just a separate Pokémon).
I'm thinking the original dragon will make an appearance in Generation VI... something much like Regigigas (entirely unrelated to the story, but still appearing). Maybe the original dragon is the "trio master".

Who decided to call them a trio the fans after all bulbapedia is a fan wiki so I believe calling them a trio in itself is a bit rash. Yes they look similar and have similar typing but Kyurem has two main body colors and they are completely seperate in revealed origin. Kyurem came from a meteor while the Plasma Duo came from another pokemon. Yes there is the Kyurem forms but we can't be sure it is cause by fusion. Hell we have Magneton but there is no fusion function in the game so why would they have one now.

Bottom line we are jumping the gun remember when were expecting Gray.

Then explain why Black Kyurem and White Kyurem closely resembles Zekrom and Reshiram. They are related.

Originally Posted by Isamu Akai

I wasn't saying that the original dragon should exist again, I was just saying that it could exist if the Tao trio were to fuse. If anything, the original dragon is the past, and the past should be kept as the past. That's like saying GF should reveal to us what the original forms of Entei, Raikou, and Suicune looked like before they died and were reincarnated by Ho-Oh. That's the past.

Actually, the past forms of the legendary beasts would make great alternate formes, if it could somehow be explained why they are able to revert (assuming that they even had different forms before being revived).
But I see what you're saying... it's probably just a part of the story which will never even be obtainable, let alone revealed as to what it even looks like.

Originally Posted by El_

N's Puzzle Cube and the hologram of the Pokemon inside of it is speculated to be a part of this mystery.

Puzzle cube? Was it ever confirmed that that even is a puzzle cube? Sounds more like speculation... the cube looks like a Rubik's cube so people assume it is a puzzle cube. And what's this about a hologram?

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

Who decided to call them a trio the fans after all bulbapedia is a fan wiki so I believe calling them a trio in itself is a bit rash. Yes they look similar and have similar typing but Kyurem has two main body colors and they are completely seperate in revealed origin. Kyurem came from a meteor while the Plasma Duo came from another pokemon. Yes there is the Kyurem forms but we can't be sure it is cause by fusion. Hell we have Magneton but there is no fusion function in the game so why would they have one now.

It's possible that he's unrelated and he's just some alien that can shapeshift / mimic Reshiram and Zekrom for some reason, but I highly doubt it. It is stated that he came from a meteor... no idea how that plays into things but I still think they're related.
But I agree, I don't think fusion is going to be the way to change Kyurem to black Kyurem or white Kyurem... as there's no indication of that. However, if the original dragon makes an appearance at all then fusion will be needed, on Reshiram and Zekrom at least.