Thread: "Perfect" Kyurem - rebirth of the Original Dragon

I doubt we'll ever see it in game at this stage, but I do like @Stratago's theory, and I totally agree with him. Zekrom and Reshiram were essentially born out of the sheer power of the original dragon, and Kyurem was pretty much the carcass, we're told that in game. I would really love to see this later on; perhaps in a few Generations time they'll release they Grey Version that we had originally anticipated and this will be the plot line, or at least a sub-plot.

A few problems are raised though. For example, what would its typing be? Would it remain Dragon/Ice and get a larger move pool to include Electric and Fire attacks? I don't think it would become Dragon/Ice/Fire/Electric. People have speculated about triple typings (I personally think they won't be added; they'd break the game mechanics), but I think we can all safely say that they definitely wouldn't have Quadruple typings. Dragon/Psychic maybe? And what event would have to occur in order for this to be possible?

Also, @Stratago, that drawing is awesome. If we ever do see the original dragon, I really hope it looks something like that. Nice work.

Originally Posted by pokemega32

Originally Posted by voicerocker

The OD can't appear to be a fusion of the 3, since it was the original existence. (Someone used DBZ earlier, Gogeta looks like Goku and Vegeta since they are the original, true beings.)

Uh, why can't the OD resemble a fusion? The in-canon explanation would just be that Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem each took different aspects from their original form.

Think Zyuranger (source material for Mighty Morphin Power Rangers). The mecha in that series were all pieces of a god that had been split apart. Of course, this god just looks like a bunch of dinosaur robots mashed together. But it's still the original form.

I'm not sure if this has been completely resolved or not, but if there's anyone left who continues to believe that Kyurem has no connection to the original dragon, the official movie 15 site says:

Kyurem: The strongest Dragon-type Pokemon, its power is on par with Reshiram and Zekrom. Carrying the strongest heredity, it was born at the same time as Zekrom and Reshiram. It can change into Black and White Kyurem. Extreme cold radiates from its body.

just curious is that offical or did somebody make that up?

Originally Posted by Articwolf10

Originally Posted by pokemega32

I'm not sure if this has been completely resolved or not, but if there's anyone left who continues to believe that Kyurem has no connection to the original dragon, the official movie 15 site says:

Kyurem: The strongest Dragon-type Pokemon, its power is on par with Reshiram and Zekrom. Carrying the strongest heredity, it was born at the same time as Zekrom and Reshiram. It can change into Black and White Kyurem. Extreme cold radiates from its body.

just curious is that offical or did somebody make that up?

This is the section of the official movie website with information about Kyurem:



The red underlined sentence (ゼクロムとレシラムと同時に生まれた) describes when Kyurem was born, and it does in fact translate to it being born at the same time as Reshiram and Zekrom. The first kanji translates roughly to "simultaneous" and the second kanji translates to "to be born."

Originally Posted by smalllady

Originally Posted by Articwolf10

Originally Posted by pokemega32

I'm not sure if this has been completely resolved or not, but if there's anyone left who continues to believe that Kyurem has no connection to the original dragon, the official movie 15 site says:

Kyurem: The strongest Dragon-type Pokemon, its power is on par with Reshiram and Zekrom. Carrying the strongest heredity, it was born at the same time as Zekrom and Reshiram. It can change into Black and White Kyurem. Extreme cold radiates from its body.

just curious is that offical or did somebody make that up?

This is the section of the official movie website with information about Kyurem:



The red underlined sentence (ゼクロムとレシラムと同時に生まれた) describes when Kyurem was born, and it does in fact translate to it being born at the same time as Reshiram and Zekrom. The first kanji translates roughly to "simultaneous" and the second kanji translates to "to be born."

Awesome so it's 100% official that Kyurem was formed the same time as Reshi and Zek? would this count with the games as well?

Originally Posted by Articwolf10

Awesome so it's 100% official that Kyurem was formed the same time as Reshi and Zek? would this count with the games as well?

It's on the official movie site, so it can't get any more official than that. While it hasn't been confirmed for B2/W2, I'm pretty sure this will apply to the games, as well.

Originally Posted by smalllady

Originally Posted by Articwolf10

Awesome so it's 100% official that Kyurem was formed the same time as Reshi and Zek? would this count with the games as well?

It's on the official movie site, so it can't get any more official than that. While it hasn't been confirmed for B2/W2, I'm pretty sure this will apply to the games, as well.

A lot of early fan theories had already hypothesized that (born, became the corpse of--either way, it was created at the same time) so I'm willing to guess that fans picked up on this association early on as well. I doubt the anime producers were looking at fansites for their next plot, and given that this is the B2W2 advertisement movie, I'd say it plays a role in the games.

I honestly don't see the point in the anime bothering to make that up unless the connection already existed. It wouldn't be that hard to just say Kyurem is simply stronger than the other two.

Originally Posted by BlueNostalgia

I doubt we'll ever see it in game at this stage, but I do like @Stratago's theory, and I totally agree with him. Zekrom and Reshiram were essentially born out of the sheer power of the original dragon, and Kyurem was pretty much the carcass, we're told that in game.

We actually aren't told that at all. Just like how Giratina, despite being related to Palkia and Dialga did not get mentioned in any of their myths (not even the ones involving Arceus) in DP, Kyurem is not mentioned in any of the stories regarding the twin heroes and their dragons.

In fact, going with what was said in-canon, Zekrom and Reshiram were not born from the sheer power of the Original Dragon, but the Original Dragon being unable to choose between which of the two brothers to follow.

Kyurem, is no doubt a remnant of the original split. While the two dragons were separated from the Original Dragon, all that was left was a "nothingness", possibly conceptualized as Kyurem's cold energy in contrast to Reshiram and Zekrom's Yin and Yang energy. I have a theory here of why Kyurem appeared (according to accounts in Lacunosa) as a meteor being shot out of the sky. Essentially, the area could be a weak spot between the two dimensions alluded to in the game.

I've personally abandoned the idea that Kyurem is the corpse. Being conceptualized as rivaling Reshiram and Zekrom's power, and 'cold energy'--I am beginning to think 'cold energy' is Game Freak's term for the opposite of the combination of yin and yang. Essentially, I think Game Freak is simply renaming 'wuji' into 'cold energy'.

I agree. Electricity and Fire both produce heat and light, while Ice brings cold and darkness (Winter). They are being quite literal with the Tao/Wuji theme as opposed to being abstract.

Just like how people view Giratina as the opposite of Arceus, Kyurem (Wuji) is likely the opposite of the Original Dragon (Taiji). Like I posted before, I believe that the Original Dragon will stand for the concept of Absolute hot as opposed to Kyurem's Absolute zero.

Originally Posted by El_

Just like how people view Giratina as the opposite of Arceus...

Since when? It's the child of Arceus. You're thinking of Dialga and Palkia being opposite to Giratina.

Same thing applies for Kyurem. It can't be the opposite because the two never existed at the same time.

Originally Posted by Deox-Y

Originally Posted by El_

Just like how people view Giratina as the opposite of Arceus...

Since when? It's the child of Arceus. You're thinking of Dialga and Palkia being opposite to Giratina.

Since before people knew Giratina's actual relation, but that's besides the point now.

Same thing applies for Kyurem. It can't be the opposite because the two never existed at the same time.

I'm guessing you mean it can't be the opposite of the Original Dragon? In which case your statement previously about Giratina opposing Palkia and Dialga would hold true here with regards to Kyurem and the twin dragons.

Of course, it can be considered the "opposite" in that it is what's created when the Original Dragon was (essentially) destroyed to give life to Reshiram and Zekrom.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

Originally Posted by Deox-Y

Originally Posted by El_

Just like how people view Giratina as the opposite of Arceus...

Since when? It's the child of Arceus. You're thinking of Dialga and Palkia being opposite to Giratina.

Since before people knew Giratina's actual relation, but that's besides the point now.

Same thing applies for Kyurem. It can't be the opposite because the two never existed at the same time.

I'm guessing you mean it can't be the opposite of the Original Dragon? In which case your statement previously about Giratina opposing Palkia and Dialga would hold true here with regards to Kyurem and the twin dragons.

Of course, it can be considered the "opposite" in that it is what's created when the Original Dragon was (essentially) destroyed to give life to Reshiram and Zekrom.

True... But I still don't believe they are opposites. Opposites usually exist at the same time, and are usually of the same power. You're not going to tell me that the OD will have a BST of 660?
Any differentiation on Kyurem's birth from Resh/Zek's would practically disqualify it from the trio, in my opinion. But, hey, I was wrong about the temporal setting of BW2, so...

Originally Posted by Deox-Y

True... But I still don't believe they are opposites. Opposites usually exist at the same time, and are usually of the same power. You're not going to tell me that the OD will have a BST of 660?
Any differentiation on Kyurem's birth from Resh/Zek's would practically disqualify it from the trio, in my opinion. But, hey, I was wrong about the temporal setting of BW2, so...

I think the difference between us is how we are conceptualizing this. I'm thinking more in broad thematic terms allowing for more discrepancies while you're examining it from a more micro-perspective with base stats. We know Kyurem is being called equal to Reshiram and Zekrom, but its BST is less. Furthermore, Giratina offsets both Palkia and Dialga, but its BST is not equal to the sum of their stats. I don't really see why it matters what it's BST is when at the end of the day, its a game mechanic that holds no ground story-wise.

As for having a different birth, Giratina's birth was already different from Palkia and Dialga's. Of course, that could be explained away by arguing that no one existed at the time, therefore the Creation myth probably has more myth than truth. However, the events of the Twin Heroes and the Original Dragon fits more with a historical account that gets distorted with the ages. Either way, why no mention of a third dragon? Why is Lacunosa the only place to reference Kyurem, and why is this reference disconnected from the story of the Twin Heroes?

I think the reason for this is that Kyurem's birth, while occurring at the same time was under different circumstances. Reshiram and Zekrom were born from the Original Dragon being unable to choose between the two heroes. Kyurem may have been created in the aftermath, being the 'cold energy' left behind. With no brother to take Kyurem, its birth resulted in what the people in Lacunosa viewed as a meteor falling to the earth. That's how I see it all playing out. Of course, this makes the settlement at Lacunosa one of the oldest if true.

Originally Posted by Deox-Y

True... But I still don't believe they are opposites. Opposites usually exist at the same time, and are usually of the same power. You're not going to tell me that the OD will have a BST of 660?
Any differentiation on Kyurem's birth from Resh/Zek's would practically disqualify it from the trio, in my opinion. But, hey, I was wrong about the temporal setting of BW2, so...

Just what makes you come to this conclusion? The terms weak and strong are considered opposites. The terms nothing and everything are considered opposites. Just because something is an opposite does not mean that it is always equal.

The opposite of Wuji (Kyurem) which means the absence of Yin/Yang is Taiji the balance of Yin/Yang.

The level of strength they are referring to has nothing to do with their base stat totals. Even though Kyurem's abilities (borrowing power from Reshiram/Zekrom) are opposite from Reshiram and Zekrom's abilities (using their own strength), they manage to put Kyurem on equal footing with Reshiram and Zekrom. And that is why they are considered a trio; they all manage to compliment each other in some way or another, in addition to all of them being born at the same time.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

I think the reason for this is that Kyurem's birth, while occurring at the same time was under different circumstances. Reshiram and Zekrom were born from the Original Dragon being unable to choose between the two heroes. Kyurem may have been created in the aftermath, being the 'cold energy' left behind. With no brother to take Kyurem, its birth resulted in what the people in Lacunosa viewed as a meteor falling to the earth. That's how I see it all playing out. Of course, this makes the settlement at Lacunosa one of the oldest if true.

After reading through some of the rest of this thread and also your own theory on your blog, I actually think I agree with you now. The way I see it, darkness is merely the absence of light. In the same way, absolute zero is a complete absence of any heat energy, the molocules have completly stopped moving. When the original dragon split, all energy was leaving it in the forms of Reshiram and Zekrom. The lack of energy afterwards, along with perhaps some of the pieces of the original dragon left behind, create absloute zero, Kyurem.

Also, I think your cocept of the parallel universes and the slightly different splits of Reshiram and Zekrom is really cool, but what causes their splits to be different? Doesn't the difference in splits create an unbalance? Representing Yin and Yang, you'd think Reshiram and Zekrom would parallel each other perfectly in every way, and yet if they split away from each other differently, allowing only one to be capable of pairing with Kyurem, then they aren't really balanced are they? I'm not undermining your theory, I just wanna see what you think; maybe you've already said and I missed it.

Also, regardless of my agreement with the parallel universe theory, I'd still like to see the full original dragon some day. There's no reason why we couldn't at least get artwork for it or an advance in some later generation; Regigigas was added a generation after the other Regis, and I know that's a much more simple situation, but I still think it'd be cool. Perhaps, in the future, even if it's just used at the minute to see the opposite form in the parallel universe, N's cube could be used to reach across the universes and bind the two. Your idea of the original dragon existing simultaneously as White and Black Kyurem in their respective universes is very cool, although I'm not sure I agree with it; why would it appear differently in this case, why wouldn't it appear in its original form? And if the original dragon was made up of Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem, then how can Black or White Kyurem, equal to only Kyurem and Zekrom / Reshiram, how does that make the original dragon? I understand that it would actually be combined with both at the same time, just in different universes, but that still doesn't explain why it doesn't appear in it's original form, or why it isn't much, much stronger.

What if 'cold energy' is like a dampening field that nullifies or absorbs power around it, like Magia Erebea?