Thread: Nerfing Endgame Legendaries

Originally Posted by elec-boy

252Atk Draco Plate Mold Breaker Haxorus (+Atk) Outrage vs 0HP/252Def Zekrom (+Def): 114% - 135% (360 - 426 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
Damage Calculator
There's proof that a Haxorus can OHKO a Zekrom, a legend/Uber. Note: Haxorus isn't an uber but an OU.
Haxorus has the stats to OHKO a few Legendaries/Uber.

These stats are so one-sided. Give us some stats on how much damage Kyogre, Palkia, Arceus, etc do to non-legendary Pokemon. Can a weavile, rotom, haxorus, etc take mad hits like specs-kyogre's water spouts or Reshiram's Draco meteor? Haxorus may have more attack that some end game legends but that doesn't necessarily mean that it can compete with some of the Ubers. There are many factors, like speed, defenses, utility, movepools, typings, etc to be taken into account.

As I said, it makes no sense to have weaker end-game legendaries. Arceus sharing stats with Latios has no logical meaning. One is the Creator, the other just a legendary. Who do you think would be more powerful? (Yes, Latios has a higher spatk, but Arceus is still more powerful due to its speed and sheer versatility. )

@H-con; okay I see what your saying; the anime is quite different in more ways then one. But would be kickass if it were like that in the game. ^_^
@Lord Clowncrete; There are many factors, like speed, defenses, utility, movepools, typings, etc to be taken into account. Our point exactly; Haxorus' speed allows him to strike down either specs-Kyogre or Reshiram before they can deliver a sure OHKO to my dragon. On the other hand if it was choice scarf that was equipped then Haxorus would be doomed.

That example me and my bro, elec-boy, brought up was not meant to be taken one-sided. The situations you bring up is more than self explanatory. I was simply making a point that there are non-legendary Pokemon that can take down Legendaries. Lilligant if trained properly can take down a HP/SPDEF Groudon in one attack. To sum it all up we weren't trying to put a pokemon out there like it was the best, but show proof that even though a legendary is tough, it can indeed be taken down.

If you click on Damage Calculator from that post it will bring you to the same one we used, if you'd like to bring up some examples. ^_^
<<<<Has The Moves Like Jagger....

Originally Posted by PKMN Trainer Virgo

@H-con; okay I see what your saying; the anime is quite different in more ways then one. But would be kickass if it were like that in the game. ^_^
@Lord Clowncrete; There are many factors, like speed, defenses, utility, movepools, typings, etc to be taken into account. Our point exactly; Haxorus' speed allows him to strike down either specs-Kyogre or Reshiram before they can deliver a sure OHKO to my dragon. On the other hand if it was choice scarf that was equipped then Haxorus would be doomed.

That example me and my bro, elec-boy, brought up was not meant to be taken one-sided. The situations you bring up is more than self explanatory. I was simply making a point that there are non-legendary Pokemon that can take down Legendaries. Lilligant if trained properly can take down a HP/SPDEF Groudon in one attack. To sum it all up we weren't trying to put a pokemon out there like it was the best, but show proof that even though a legendary is tough, it can indeed be taken down.

If you click on Damage Calculator from that post it will bring you to the same one we used, if you'd like to bring up some examples. ^_^
<<<<Has The Moves Like Jagger....

Yes, they can be brought to dust by weaker mons. I have used Gastrodon and Quagsire to bring down Kyogre in the past.

Look, I am not getting what you guys are trying to say. If you guys are trying to say that "we should nerf end-game legends, because they are over-powered.", then the scenarios you are giving are simply contradicting what you are saying. If you want to say that many "weaker" Pokemon can defeat these behemoths, then you are simply trying to say, that they should receive no nerf since they can still be brought to the ground by weaker mons. Still contradictory.

My reasoning is simple. I find it illogical that endgame legendaries, should have the same power as "normal" mons. They are mons who have existed for hundreds of years and have shaped continents, space, etc. I see no reason why gf should simply weaken these mons(who are meant to be powerful) just so that a few people can have their cake and eat it too.

Well, I feel that Legendaries are alright as they are. One thing you have to remember is that unlike ordinary Pokemon, you only have one per game, so once you got this Legendary, this is the one you are given until you reset your game. The ordinary Pokemon has the benefit of being catchable to get more than one of, and for those who aren't, there's always breeding, giving them more leeway in getting the perfect one. As such, I view the Legendaries as a balanced competitive Pokemon because of their rarity (and catch rate, making it harder to use a special ball for them, like the Luxury Ball). For example, if you got a Modest Terrakion (+SpAttack, -Attack), which not the best Nature for it, you may as well recapture it again, but once you caught it and saved, you have no way of getting more of it until you start the game again. On the other hand, if you got a Modest Darmanitan, you could catch another Darumaka with an Adamant nature or breed for one, so you have second chances.

Roaming Legendaries are similar in that they are hard to meet, but as long as they're great, I don't see how it's that bad for them to be powerful. Thundurus and Tornadus are really powerful, but they are roamers. They are, however, well-designed roamers because there is a visual cue as to if they are around (Mesprit is possibly the other).

How about the Big-time Legendaries (titans like Kyogre and Lugia)? In addition to the one-per-game status and sometimes minuscule catch rate, they are probably too powerful. But that's not a bad thing if you ask me, because they are meant to be so powerful it gives the player a challenge. The reward with enduring such a beast should be a real reward, which is of course to have possession of one. Their rarity could also make it so that it's not easy to get one legitimately, so Arceus is not going to be easily obtainable because so far it's only Event-exclusive.

In short, I think the Legendaries are balanced in such a way that makes them undeserving of a nerf. (However, some legendaries had a nerf, like Articuno, who is absolutely hurt by Stealth Rock that its defences can't save it from being taken out)

Thanks for reading.

Originally Posted by winstein

Well, I feel that Legendaries are alright as they are. One thing you have to remember is that unlike ordinary Pokemon, you only have one per game, so once you got this Legendary, this is the one you are given until you reset your game. The ordinary Pokemon has the benefit of being catchable to get more than one of, and for those who aren't, there's always breeding, giving them more leeway in getting the perfect one. As such, I view the Legendaries as a balanced competitive Pokemon because of their rarity (and catch rate, making it harder to use a special ball for them, like the Luxury Ball). For example, if you got a Modest Terrakion (+SpAttack, -Attack), which not the best Nature for it, you may as well recapture it again, but once you caught it and saved, you have no way of getting more of it until you start the game again. On the other hand, if you got a Modest Darmanitan, you could catch another Darumaka with an Adamant nature or breed for one, so you have second chances.

Roaming Legendaries are similar in that they are hard to meet, but as long as they're great, I don't see how it's that bad for them to be powerful. Thundurus and Tornadus are really powerful, but they are roamers. They are, however, well-designed roamers because there is a visual cue as to if they are around (Mesprit is possibly the other).

How about the Big-time Legendaries (titans like Kyogre and Lugia)? In addition to the one-per-game status and sometimes minuscule catch rate, they are probably too powerful. But that's not a bad thing if you ask me, because they are meant to be so powerful it gives the player a challenge. The reward with enduring such a beast should be a real reward, which is of course to have possession of one. Their rarity could also make it so that it's not easy to get one legitimately, so Arceus is not going to be easily obtainable because so far it's only Event-exclusive.

In short, I think the Legendaries are balanced in such a way that makes them undeserving of a nerf. (However, some legendaries had a nerf, like Articuno, who is absolutely hurt by Stealth Rock that its defences can't save it from being taken out)

Thanks for reading.

But we're talking about endgame legendaries in terms of use outside of in-game purposes, not by rarity and catch rate. There's really no point in using a Kyogre or Reshiram in your team if they're banned in official facilities and tournaments (Ubers if is a fan-made facility) due to being too powerful. Once you have your endgame legendary, everything is way too easy to beat, and you'll soon feel bored and decide to either abandon it, which GF wouldn't recommend on the legendary you worked hard to catch, or take it somewhere like Random Matchups to prevent boredom, only to find out that they're restricted from entering. That is why there needs to be a nerf in their stats and movepool to be more like the trio legendaries (Ex: the Bird trio) and the psuedo-legendaries, who are still allowed in official tournaments and facilities.

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

But we're talking about endgame legendaries in terms of use outside of in-game purposes, not by rarity and catch rate. There's really no point in using a Kyogre or Reshiram in your team if they're banned in official facilities and tournaments (Ubers if is a fan-made facility) due to being too powerful. Once you have your endgame legendary, everything is way too easy to beat, and you'll soon feel bored and decide to either abandon it, which GF wouldn't recommend on the legendary you worked hard to catch, or take it somewhere like Random Matchups to prevent boredom, only to find out that they're restricted from entering. That is why there needs to be a nerf in their stats and movepool to be more like the trio legendaries (Ex: the Bird trio) and the psuedo-legendaries, who are still allowed in official tournaments and facilities.

I said that they are balanced because their rarity and catch rate balances out their legendary status, because I feel that balance is not just limited to battle performance. Also, I wouldn't say that there's no point in using Big-time Legendaries. There's one time when you could use them is in VGC 2010, making stuff like Mewtwo and Kyogre allowed, albeit only two per team. Only the Event ones are not allowed (meaning things like Mew and Darkrai are out of the league), because they are not as readily available as said Big-time legendaries, I guess. If a VGC (possibly 2013) allowed this, it would be interesting to see how they fare.

In any case, I don't see the point in nerfing them just for the sake of bringing them to the same level as the others. I think they should retain their powerful status because the beauty of this is that they are more powerful than the average Pokemon or Legendary, making the player feel powerful for having them. If they are not as powerful as they look, that's bad because they lost the appeal. Golurk, for example, while not a Legendary, seems underwhelming because despite its size and stature, it's not quite as powerful or sturdy as it looks (but I still love it anyway). Maybe if you want, you could lower their level to a more manageable state, but there are a can of worms involved, like setting an appropriate level for them, and Arceus (because it is available at only Level 100).

Thanks for reading.

@Lord Clowncrete; A Quagsire?! Interesting, I was always wondering what Pokemon to use against my bros Kyogre, he never crossed my mind. [Don't use it that much that's why ^_^] I see what you mean and yea it is a huge contradiction. To be honest I don't mind weather they are nerfed or not. I understand both sides of this. If they are weakened down then it would make it possible to be used in official facilities and tournaments as Ghetsis-Dennis said. But as stated many times, if they are weakened down then what makes them a legendary? The examples we provided support the later; tho I like the idea presented to be weakened in some fashion so that they can be used in such way. When Pokemon enter these facilities, they are capped at level 50 [unless there is a level 100 option] and their stats are basically halved right? Perhaps they can bring legendaries down a little bit more so that they retain there awesome stats, but aren't so overwhelming in these facilities. Thanks for pointing that out, hopefully I've kinda cleared it up our perspective.

Originally Posted by PKMN Trainer Virgo

@Lord Clowncrete; A Quagsire?! Interesting, I was always wondering what Pokemon to use against my bros Kyogre, he never crossed my mind. [Don't use it that much that's why ^_^]

Yep, a quagsire with tonnes of special defense and hp investment easily stops scarf and cm kyogre. Gastrodon is effective against specs one as well. Set up toxic spikes to make it easier.

When Pokemon enter these facilities, they are capped at level 50 [unless there is a level 100 option] and their stats are basically halved right? Perhaps they can bring legendaries down a little bit more so that they retain there awesome stats, but aren't so overwhelming in these facilities. Thanks for pointing that out, hopefully I've kinda cleared it up our perspective.

Hmm, if both the Pokemon are halved to level 50, then the final result will be the same. Remember, the equations x + y = 2 is the same as 2x + 2y = 4.

Unless, of course we are talking about a 50 lvl endgame legendary against a level 100 mon. In that scenario, the legendary would indeed be "nerfed."

Hmm, if both the Pokemon are halved to level 50, then the final result will be the same. Remember, the equations x + y = 2 is the same as 2x + 2y = 4.

Unless, of course we are talking about a 50 lvl endgame legendary against a level 100 mon. In that scenario, the legendary would indeed be "nerfed."

@Lord Clowncrete; Interesting indeed; sounds like a near-leveled playing field then.

This is ridiculous, GF are not about to nerf anything simply because of a metagame that they honestly shouldn't place any priority over, especially not over the in game. They have Ubers for a reason in your precious Smogon.

If the only problem is simply not being able to use legendaries in battle facilities like Battle Subway for instance or the Battle Tower, then I would think that the most logical thing to do would be to create a facility that allows legends of a high BST to be used. Thats a lot more sound than nerfing endgame legends.

Speaking of legends that are banned, a lot of Pokemon with a 600 BST total are banned in the Battle Subway and elsewhere, like Mew or Victini for instance. Battle Subway - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia Hell even Phione is banned, so no, nerfing the endgame Pokemon would be pointless anyways as they would likely still be banned from facilities by GameFreak based on status.

Originally Posted by El_

Speaking of legends that are banned, a lot of Pokemon with a 600 BST total are banned in the Battle Subway and elsewhere, like Mew or Victini for instance. Battle Subway - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia Hell even Phione is banned, so no, nerfing the endgame Pokemon would be pointless anyways as they would likely still be banned from facilities by GameFreak based on status.

Not quite. The standard banned Pokémon are the version mascot legendaries (whose BST is greater than 600) and the event-exclusive ones. Pokémon like Latios, Heatran and Landorus aren't banned anywhere (officially). But there has been at least one case where only the event-exclusive Pokémon were banned: In VGC 2010 it was possible to use Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh and the Weather and Creation trios, but only up to two per a team. I think that next year's VGC may use a similar ruleset.

Originally Posted by winstein

I said that they are balanced because their rarity and catch rate balances out their legendary status, because I feel that balance is not just limited to battle performance. Also, I wouldn't say that there's no point in using Big-time Legendaries. There's one time when you could use them is in VGC 2010, making stuff like Mewtwo and Kyogre allowed, albeit only two per team. Only the Event ones are not allowed (meaning things like Mew and Darkrai are out of the league), because they are not as readily available as said Big-time legendaries, I guess. If a VGC (possibly 2013) allowed this, it would be interesting to see how they fare.

But endgame legendaries have to be used somehow in other facilities like Random Matchups, while at the same time nerf them so regular Pokemon could stand a chance like they did with legendary trios, pseudo-legendaries, and event-exclusive legendaries, so players won't have to move to faraway cities to enter an official tournament such as the VGC that allows endgame legendaries.

In any case, I don't see the point in nerfing them just for the sake of bringing them to the same level as the others. I think they should retain their powerful status because the beauty of this is that they are more powerful than the average Pokemon or Legendary, making the player feel powerful for having them. If they are not as powerful as they look, that's bad because they lost the appeal. Golurk, for example, while not a Legendary, seems underwhelming because despite its size and stature, it's not quite as powerful or sturdy as it looks (but I still love it anyway). Maybe if you want, you could lower their level to a more manageable state, but there are a can of worms involved, like setting an appropriate level for them, and Arceus (because it is available at only Level 100).

The same argument could be said about Charizard. It is an underwhelming Pokemon by Smogon standards, yet people still see it as one of the most powerful Pokemon in the series.

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

But endgame legendaries have to be used somehow in other facilities like Random Matchups, while at the same time nerf them so regular Pokemon could stand a chance like they did with legendary trios, pseudo-legendaries, and event-exclusive legendaries, so players won't have to move to faraway cities to enter an official tournament such as the VGC that allows endgame legendaries.

While I understand that you would love to see a time when the Big-time legendaries are allowed in Standard Play for the sake of diversity, I felt that they are better off being powerful, for reasons I explained. I think it's nice that there is still an option to use them unofficially, as opposed to being completely prohibitive. That's because that way, we could see what those Big-time legendaries are capable of, like Lugia's superb dual-Screen capabilities and Arceus' diversity.

There are some ordinary Pokemon that could still stand a chance against the Big-time legendaries at their original state, though. Take Kyogre, for example. Gastrodon and Quagsire are able to stand up to it because of their immunities, and not being weak to Ice. Skarmory is pretty much a great answer to some of the strongest Physical attackers like Arceus and Groudon. Venusaur in the Sun (supplied by Groudon) is quite menacing. All the Pokemon I listed are pretty much regular Pokemon.

One more thing: It's not likely that there is a possibility of the developers nerfing Big-time Legendaries, so I suppose it's something you have to deal with, unless you want to make an appeal to the developers.

Thanks for reading.

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

But endgame legendaries have to be used somehow in other facilities like Random Matchups, while at the same time nerf them so regular Pokemon could stand a chance like they did with legendary trios, pseudo-legendaries, and event-exclusive legendaries, so players won't have to move to faraway cities to enter an official tournament such as the VGC that allows endgame legendaries.

They can be used over wifi battles.

The same argument could be said about Charizard. It is an underwhelming Pokemon by Smogon standards, yet people still see it as one of the most powerful Pokemon in the series.

So? You love bringing up smogon and the metagame everywhere, don't you?