Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

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    Surprise! winstein's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    After checking the board for this type of thread, I didn't find anything related to this subject. There is the New Moves/Abilities thread, but that one is for new moves. There's also the Pokemon Retcon thread, which deals with anything that changed between generations, but I felt that putting this there would make this subject difficult to be noticed since the direction that topic is heading meant that what I am going to start is unsuitable.

    So, some of the things that you would notice between Generations would be that moves and abilities have changes, usually for the better. Here are some examples:
    • In Gen 2, Roar and Whirlwind forces switches.
    • In Gen 4, Hypnosis had an accuracy increase to 70% (for a while).
    • In Gen 4, Sandstorm gives Rock-types a Special Defence boost.
    • In Gen 4, Outrage received a power boost (120 BP).
    • In Gen 5, Bullet Seed received a power boost (25 BP).
    • In Gen 5, Glare received an accuracy boost to 90%.
    • In Gen 5, Sturdy grants the user survival on any attack that would otherwise KO them.
    • In Gen 5, Stench makes the opponent flinch 10% of the time.


    So my question to you now is, what modifications in the current moves would you like to see?

    For me, I would like to see some of the following:

    1. A power boost in Mega Drain and Absorb. While they are not necessarily attacks that are attractive, this would help immensely in-game. Moreover, a Roserade with a 60 BP Mega Drain is an attractive choice due to Technician.
    2. Leaf Tornado could also use either a power boost (80 BP) or an increased chance of the accuracy drop, since that's the main reason that move was used in the first place.
    3. Astonish would have a 60% flinch chance, which would make this move attractive despite the low BP, meaning that there is a choice for those who learn this to do pinch damage while flinching most of the time. However, the only disadvantage is that Dunsparce would be the ideal user, since it already had Serene Grace to cause reliable flinching.
    4. Solarbeam to perform its charge on the same time Focus Punch would do, which means that if you charge it during sunlight, it will fire off the beam immediately. The advantage with this is that the next weather inducer cannot immediately switch without taking a power Grass-type attack.
    5. Frost Breath to have 55 BP. This would be very good to Ice-types for they have a more powerful alternative to Ice Beam.
    6. Scald to have no burn chance in Rain, and a higher burn chance in Sun, while reducing the default rate to 20%. It would balance this move a bit, in my opinion. Under Rain, it would be more powerful, but at least there is no risk of being burnt, but in Sun, it would be weaker but it will cast the burn more reliably. The reduction of chance is to make up for the additional effect.
    7. Keen Eye to provide a 30% boost in accuracy. With this, any Pokemon with Keen Eye would finally see this ability being used, such as Watchog's more reliable Hypnosis and Super Fang, or Pelipper's perfect Hydro Pump hit and reliable Hurricane.
    8. Big Pecks to provide an intrinsic Defence boost (1.5x) to make up for the lack of auto-defence reduction. This would make Mandibuzz more annoying, that's for sure, but it would help out Pidgeot.
    9. Leaf Guard to provide damage reduction in Sun (25%) in addition to its current effect, to put it on par with Hydration's ability to allow the user to use Rest without repercussions in Rain.


    So again, I ask, what modification in moves or abilities do you predict?

    Thanks for reading.
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    ♥ Grand Riser ♥ Silverwynde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    I want Shadow Punch to get a bit of a boost. This is the one main Attack that Golurk can use and get a nice hefty STAB and Iron Fist bonus, but its power is only 60. GF, please kick it up to 75 at least. I'd appreciate that.

    Ability wise, I don't want much--just let me breed DW Abilities on genderless Pokemon. If it has to be done with said Dream Worlder holding an Everstone to pass the Ability as well as the Nature, that's fine. I just want it to happen.
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    Registered User Neptune's Disciple's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by winstein View Post
    For me, I would like to see some of the following:

    1. A power boost in Mega Drain and Absorb. While they are not necessarily attacks that are attractive, this would help immensely in-game. Moreover, a Roserade with a 60 BP Mega Drain is an attractive choice due to Technician.
    2. Leaf Tornado could also use either a power boost (80 BP) or an increased chance of the accuracy drop, since that's the main reason that move was used in the first place.
    3. Astonish would have a 60% flinch chance, which would make this move attractive despite the low BP, meaning that there is a choice for those who learn this to do pinch damage while flinching most of the time. However, the only disadvantage is that Dunsparce would be the ideal user, since it already had Serene Grace to cause reliable flinching.
    4. Solarbeam to perform its charge on the same time Focus Punch would do, which means that if you charge it during sunlight, it will fire off the beam immediately. The advantage with this is that the next weather inducer cannot immediately switch without taking a power Grass-type attack.
    5. Frost Breath to have 55 BP. This would be very good to Ice-types for they have a more powerful alternative to Ice Beam.
    6. Scald to have no burn chance in Rain, and a higher burn chance in Sun, while reducing the default rate to 20%. It would balance this move a bit, in my opinion. Under Rain, it would be more powerful, but at least there is no risk of being burnt, but in Sun, it would be weaker but it will cast the burn more reliably. The reduction of chance is to make up for the additional effect.
    7. Keen Eye to provide a 30% boost in accuracy. With this, any Pokemon with Keen Eye would finally see this ability being used, such as Watchog's more reliable Hypnosis and Super Fang, or Pelipper's perfect Hydro Pump hit and reliable Hurricane.
    8. Big Pecks to provide an intrinsic Defence boost (1.5x) to make up for the lack of auto-defence reduction. This would make Mandibuzz more annoying, that's for sure, but it would help out Pidgeot.
    9. Leaf Guard to provide damage reduction in Sun (25%) in addition to its current effect, to put it on par with Hydration's ability to allow the user to use Rest without repercussions in Rain.


    So again, I ask, what modification in moves or abilities do you predict?

    Thanks for reading.
    Leaf Guard already allows the user to rest and instantly wake up, it just has to be in the sun, they're equal yet opposite abilities for water/sun so their effects are the same. Other than that, I think your list is pretty good :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    I want Shadow Punch to get a bit of a boost. This is the one main Attack that Golurk can use and get a nice hefty STAB and Iron Fist bonus, but its power is only 60. GF, please kick it up to 75 at least. I'd appreciate that..
    I'd like just about all the punching moves to get a bit of a boost. Putting the elemental punches to 85/90 BP would mean that a whole lot of pokemon get better coverage options. Shadow Punch definitely needs a boost, I think to 85/90 BP as well, there aren't really any good physical moves for ghost (or Dark).

    For abilities, I'd like to see some that currently don't have any effect in battle given at least something. Take Illuminate for example, maybe it could increase the accuracy of all pokemon on the field while this pokemon is in play? Honey Gather could lower the opponents evasiveness (because they're all trying to get to the honey). Light/Heavy Metal could increase speed/defense respectively? I know they currently have an in-game effect, but it's pretty useless. I think that's just about all the abilities that don't have an in-battle effect.

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    Onduru ruragittan disukaa Garren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Honey Gather could have a slight healing effect, as the Pokemon could be "gathering honey" that heals them, or something.

    An evasive effect would make sense though since Honey itself is basically an itemized version of Sweet Scent now, which also lowers evasion.
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    I think Defend Order and Heal Order should be able to be used on allies.

    I'd also like Octazooka to be more powerful. It's a pretty cool signature move but it's hardly worth having because of the 85% accuracy and only 65 in power.

    Not something I care about too much because I don't really use it, but make Razor Wind a Flying type move?

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    Surprise! winstein's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple View Post
    Leaf Guard already allows the user to rest and instantly wake up, it just has to be in the sun, they're equal yet opposite abilities for water/sun so their effects are the same. Other than that, I think your list is pretty good :)
    Thanks for the compliment! There is something I would like to address, though. You said Leaf Guard did what you say it did, but that's not what the 'pedia said (it said that in sunlight, Leaf Guard cannot allow the user to Rest. In Gen 4, using Rest will still put them to Sleep). If this move worked as you said, could you show me at least a video to prove it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    I want Shadow Punch to get a bit of a boost. This is the one main Attack that Golurk can use and get a nice hefty STAB and Iron Fist bonus, but its power is only 60. GF, please kick it up to 75 at least. I'd appreciate that..
    In general, all the never-miss moves would be great with a boost, since they are weak in the grand scheme of things, such as stuff like Magical Leaf, Faint Attack and as you said, Shadow Punch. 75 BP would be a good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tendou Soujirou View Post
    Honey Gather could have a slight healing effect, as the Pokemon could be "gathering honey" that heals them, or something.

    An evasive effect would make sense though since Honey itself is basically an itemized version of Sweet Scent now, which also lowers evasion.
    That would be very good indeed. This would help immensely in Doubles especially since it affects everyone, although I imagine that it could backfire since teammates are affected too. One thing I thought of was that Honey Gather should have made the user able to benefit from their own honey and heal them for a substantial amount of HP (1/8 Max HP).

    Thanks for reading.
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    Call me Yusuke Venator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Hail (weather) now restores 1/16 HP for Ice-type Pokemon each turn.
    Ice Body increases Defense and Special Defense under Hail.

    Rain (weather) no longer increases damage of Water-type moves.
    Rain increases damage of Electric-type moves.

    Some buff to make running Weather moves useful over auto-inducers.

    Run Away allows the user to escape from all trapping abilities, and moves, and renders the user immune to Pursuit while switching.

    Some nerf to Sturdy so that it no longer ensures 1 HP when there is a vast difference in levels (>10) between the attacker and the Sturdy user.
    Last edited by Venator; 27th March 2013 at 02:16 AM.

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    Registered User BigBadButterfree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Oh, I so very hope they add something for those useless abilities. I hate abilities like illuminate specifically for that reason!

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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Rain (weather) no longer increases damage of Water-type moves.
    Rain increases damage of Electric-type moves.
    That's counter-intuitive. Rain's entire purpose to begin with was to boost Water-type attacks, and it's a must for good Water teams. With your idea, not only would it remove that benefit, but actually boost one of Water's weaknesses. Kyogre and Drizzle Politoad would be worse than useless because they'd be constantly boosting their opponent's moves and not doing anything with their own.

    I'd also like them to change or remove Huge Power and Pure Power. They just double the user's Attack, with no added effects or conditions. It could either have a one-in-three chance of boosting a physical attack by 50% when such an attack is used (like in Mystery Dungeon), or just be removed entirely and replaced with something new.
    Last edited by Heatmor C. Dawson; 27th March 2013 at 07:22 AM.
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    Call me Yusuke Venator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Heatmor C. Dawson View Post
    That's counter-intuitive. Rain's entire purpose to begin with was to boost Water-type attacks, and it's a must for good Water teams. With your idea, not only would it remove that benefit, but actually boost one of Water's weaknesses. Kyogre and Drizzle Politoad would be worse than useless because they'd be constantly boosting their opponent's moves and not doing anything with their own.
    One of the main problems with Rain teams in the current metagame is that Rain is the best weather because Water-types have their cake (Swift Swim) and eat it too (damage boost), while Pokemon under Sun teams do not share that trait (Grass-types with Chlorophyll get a speed boost, while Fire-types get a damage boost) and even Sandstorm and Hail teams are far better balanced than Rain teams.

    It's not "counter-intuitive". It's a logical solution to the very real problem of Rain's utter dominance in Generation V.

    I'd also like them to change or remove Huge Power and Pure Power. They just double the user's Attack, with no added effects or conditions. It could either have a one-in-three chance of boosting a physical attack by 50% when such an attack is used (like in Mystery Dungeon), or just be removed entirely and replaced with something new.
    Only one Pokemon family has Huge Power and only one Pokemon family has Pure Power. Azumarill (Huge Power) and Medicham (Pure Power) are only useful because of their signature abilities, and it is the only thing preventing them from falling into complete obscurity (Azumarill being UU, Medicham being RU).

    Nerfing those abilities will not accomplish anything positive and, basically, turn two somewhat useful Pokemon into useless gimmicks.

    Why would you want that?

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    70% Critical Hit Rate Stratago's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Heatmor C. Dawson View Post
    That's counter-intuitive. Rain's entire purpose to begin with was to boost Water-type attacks, and it's a must for good Water teams. With your idea, not only would it remove that benefit, but actually boost one of Water's weaknesses. Kyogre and Drizzle Politoad would be worse than useless because they'd be constantly boosting their opponent's moves and not doing anything with their own.
    One of the main problems with Rain teams in the current metagame is that Rain is the best weather because Water-types have their cake (Swift Swim) and eat it too (damage boost), while Pokemon under Sun teams do not share that trait (Grass-types with Chlorophyll get a speed boost, while Fire-types get a damage boost) and even Sandstorm and Hail teams are far better balanced than Rain teams.

    It's not "counter-intuitive". It's a logical solution to the very real problem of Rain's utter dominance in Generation V.

    I'd also like them to change or remove Huge Power and Pure Power. They just double the user's Attack, with no added effects or conditions. It could either have a one-in-three chance of boosting a physical attack by 50% when such an attack is used (like in Mystery Dungeon), or just be removed entirely and replaced with something new.
    Only one Pokemon family has Huge Power and only one Pokemon family has Pure Power. Azumarill (Huge Power) and Medicham (Pure Power) are only useful because of their signature abilities, and it is the only thing preventing them from falling into complete obscurity (Azumarill being UU, Medicham being RU).

    Nerfing those abilities will not accomplish anything positive and, basically, turn two somewhat useful Pokemon into useless gimmicks.

    Why would you want that?
    Not everyone cares solely about Smogon's Metagame.
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratago View Post
    Not everyone cares solely about Smogon's Metagame.
    Smogon's metagame is a slightly more organized version of the regular metagame.

    The problems are the same. Smogon just adds rules to solve the metagame's problems.

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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    One of the main problems with Rain teams in the current metagame is that Rain is the best weather because Water-types have their cake (Swift Swim) and eat it too (damage boost), while Pokemon under Sun teams do not share that trait (Grass-types with Chlorophyll get a speed boost, while Fire-types get a damage boost) and even Sandstorm and Hail teams are far better balanced than Rain teams.

    It's not "counter-intuitive". It's a logical solution to the very real problem of Rain's utter dominance in Generation V.
    It's a matter of principle. Rain Dance is a Water type move designed to buff its generally Water-type user. Simple enough. But if it were changed to buff Electric-types instead, then Water, Flying, and Ice-type users would be hosed. 100% accurate Thunder is a good enough Rain Dance/Drizzle counter for me, especially if Jolteon uses it. Rain Dance does need to be fixed, but making it buff the user's primary weakness is not a good way to do it.

    Only one Pokemon family has Huge Power and only one Pokemon family has Pure Power. Azumarill (Huge Power) and Medicham (Pure Power) are only useful because of their signature abilities, and it is the only thing preventing them from falling into complete obscurity (Azumarill being UU, Medicham being RU).

    Nerfing those abilities will not accomplish anything positive and, basically, turn two somewhat useful Pokemon into useless gimmicks.

    Why would you want that?
    Because simply buffing their respective base Attack/Special Attack would accomplish the same thing for every Marill/Medi-whatever, rather than just the ones that have Huge/Pure Power. Got an Azumarill with Thick Fat or Sap Sipper? Too bad! Medicham with Telepathy? Useless outside Double/Triple battles. If anything, they are useless and gimmicky already; their gimmick is Huge/Pure Power.
    Keep in mind that totally removing the abilities would be the extreme option. Changing them to PMD's version would give them a one-in-three chance of a 50% damage boost with a physical move. It's a rational choice considering their best movesets use physical attacks almost exclusively. I would rather have all Azumarill/Medicham be slightly stronger via stat buff and a tweaked Ability than a few be extremely strong and the others pathetic due to an Ability like they are now.
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    Call me Yusuke Venator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Heatmor C. Dawson View Post
    It's a matter of principle.
    Principles are more important than balance?

    Rain Dance is a Water type move designed to buff its generally Water-type user. Simple enough. But if it were changed to buff Electric-types instead, then Water, Flying, and Ice-type users would be hosed.
    Are Water-types entitled to an overpowered strategy because the alternative would be balance?

    100% accurate Thunder is a good enough Rain Dance/Drizzle counter for me, especially if Jolteon uses it.
    Jolteon cannot fight Drizzle/Swift Swim. Even if he could (which he can't), one Pokemon still would not (and did not) make Drizzle/Swift Swim balanced (especially if you remember Kingdra).

    Rain Dance does need to be fixed, but making it buff the user's primary weakness is not a good way to do it.
    In my opinion, it is a good way to do it.

    My way solves the issue entirely, and makes Drizzle/Swift Swim equal to Drought/Chlorophyll.

    Do you have a better suggestion? I'd like to hear it, if so.

    Because simply buffing their respective base Attack/Special Attack would accomplish the same thing for every Marill/Medi-whatever, rather than just the ones that have Huge/Pure Power. Got an Azumarill with Thick Fat or Sap Sipper? Too bad! Medicham with Telepathy? Useless outside Double/Triple battles. If anything, they are useless and gimmicky already; their gimmick is Huge/Pure Power.

    Keep in mind that totally removing the abilities would be the extreme option. Changing them to PMD's version would give them a one-in-three chance of a 50% damage boost with a physical move. It's a rational choice considering their best movesets use physical attacks almost exclusively. I would rather have all Azumarill/Medicham be slightly stronger via stat buff and a tweaked Ability than a few be extremely strong and the others pathetic due to an Ability like they are now.
    While I can appreciate attempting to balance alternative versions of the Pokemon, nerfing Huge/Pure Power alone would not accomplish balance of any sort, especially if it's changed to RNG-based.

    This particular topic is more fitting for "Retconning Pokemon", but I'd rather have the "extreme option" be the solution. Double Azumarill/Medicham's base Attack stat, remove Huge/Pure Power as we know them. That way, all Azumarill/Medicham are equal stat wise but can vary in utility through abilities.

    That's balance.

    RNG-based bs isn't.

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    Default Re: Modification of Mechanics in Moves and Abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Run Away allows the user to escape from all trapping abilities, and moves, and renders the user immune to Pursuit while switching.
    OMIGOD THIS

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