Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion - Page 32

View Poll Results: Iris is fit to be the champion?

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  • Totally! She's earned it!

    64 54.70%
  • Nah, she's still too childish.

    31 26.50%
  • Meh... I'll still sweep.

    22 18.80%
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Thread: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

  1. #466
    Cranky Curmudgeon Signas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Signas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rubinek View Post
    Hmm, I wonder how does it fare on challange mode. The normal one was an easy 6-0 for my Liligant.

    I did like that she had Haxorus with Focus Sash though.
    I'm confused are you saying you beat all her Pokemon with a Liligant?????
    Not too far fetched. I've swept Red and Cynthia with a Starmie.
    But Starmie is awesome, I too have swept many a battle with a Starmie. But Liligant? Either it was extremely over leveled, or I have been grossly under estimating it lol.
    Never underestimate a Lilligant with Quiver Dance my friend.
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    Still the Unova Champion in my book.

  2. #467
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    While I admit that her team shares too many weakness, it's still a cool team appearance and theme wise.

  3. #468
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Seems like an alright team. The three on the right are cool the three on the left aren't - would be nice to come up against a legendary but meh.

  4. #469
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Signas View Post
    Nah. It's just because I just dislike children. And I think there were others more deserving. inb4 you're wrong
    Uh huh, and like I said last time you made that claim, you not only wanted Banjirou as Champion, but you wanted him to have the stereotypical "bratty child" personality.

    I don't care if you say you actually like Banjirou, the whole "I wanted to see a bratty Champion" completely contradicts any statement made about "disliking children" as the reason you don't like Iris. It's more like, you're using that as a thinly veiled excuse to just not like Iris, which is fine, but don't pretend its because you dislike children (regardless of whether you do) when you wanted a stereotypically bratty child Champion out of Banjirou. You may dislike children, but that's clearly not the reason you don't want Iris as Champion when you're advocating a "bratty child" persona for Banjirou.

    And there's a lot of irony in the claim that Drayden "is just a gym leader" when people also much preferred Drayden becoming Champion, suggesting they believe he is already "someone of Champion caliber"

    You know who else is just a gym leader?
    -
    Volkner, He's actually stated to have beaten the Unova league (implied to at least have challenged them in BW, I think it was mentioned in a magazine that he beat them)
    - Wallace, actually the Hoenn Champion
    - Blue, also a former Champion
    - Clair...though she may have just been bragging about her ability, she at least doesn't claim to be stronger than Lance

    That's like, an "Eighth" gym leader for every region. There is a very good reason why Drayden would never leave his gym to be Champion even if he could have done it: His gym guards the Gene Wedge. I doubt Drayden's planning to die anytime soon, so he can let his successor be a Champion in the mean time.

    Just admit it, you're an Alder fanboy and if Alder can't be Champion, then you'd much rather have a photocopy of him be one. Failing that, any one of his proteges. You keep talking about how other people are more worthy. You go on about how Banjirou and Marshal was trained by Alder. But guess what? Alder looked around for a Champion, and as Silktree has already said, it is not unfeasible that Alder actually did test any one of his Elite 4 members (and Banjirou!) and they failed to beat him.

    But you know who didn't fail to beat him? Iris.Who cares if Banjirou was trained by Alder. Iris was the one who passed his test. Iris wasn't even technically full gym leader in White and Drayden told her to battle the PC in his place (ironically preceded by the line: I promised Alder you'd win; perhaps Black version Iris was actually the stronger of the two?). You know what that means? Iris' only recorded loss was against the previous Champion who also beat Alder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Signas View Post
    Cheren because a big part of his development in the previous game was his desire to become powerful and finding a way to go about it.
    Translates to: I misread Cheren's character development.

    Cheren was asked why he wanted to be Champion, and his reason? To be on top. Then he learned being powerful for the sake of being powerful wasn't the right way to go about in his life, and it reflects in being a gym leader.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 3rd August 2012 at 08:38 PM.
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  5. #470
    Cranky Curmudgeon Signas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    Just admit it, you're an Alder fanboy and if Alder can't be Champion, then you'd much rather have a photocopy of him be one.
    I would have thought that was obvious by now. Personal bias is playing a part in this.

    Look, we have differing opinions on this issue, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm simply giving mine opinion/preference. You can think it's wrong all you want, and that's fine! But to constantly go in circles like this when both of us are adamant in our own belief is totally pointless. At the end of the day, remember that this is just a fictional game.

    Still the Unova Champion in my book.

  6. #471
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Signas View Post

    Look, we have differing opinions on this issue, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm simply giving mine opinion/preference. You can think it's wrong all you want, and that's fine! But to constantly go in circles like this when both of us are adamant in our own belief is totally pointless. At the end of the day, remember that this is just a fictional game.
    You're the one dragging us around in circles by saying Iris is a child and unfit to be Champion, yet openly preferring a Bratty-Banjirou, and then going around saying Marshal and Banjirou is more fitting because they were trained by Alder. While its subjective to not like Iris as Champion, the reasoning for the latter spits in the face of objective truth.

    While it is subjective opinion on who your preference is, I am pointing out an objective outcome that occurred in these games: Alder chose to fight Iris to see if she is ready to be Champion, and Iris won, proving to Alder she was.

    You can have your subjective opinion that you'd prefer Marshal or Banjirou, but don't subvert the truth by saying they are more fitting because "they were trained by Alder" when the reality is, Alder tested Iris and Iris passed. To ignore this objective truth and to say that other people are better simply because they were trained by Alder is pointless, because Iris was tested by Alder.

    Also, while you can subjectively not like the direction Cheren's characterization has done, it is objectively true that Cheren's development in BW went from "I'm going to be strongest for the sake of being strongest" to finding something else to fight for. Sure, he could have maintained those sentiments while being Champion, but its hardly good writing.
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  7. #472
    Cranky Curmudgeon Signas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    I can totally see where you're coming from here, and I am totally aware of what objectively happened in the game. I am also totally aware that my opinion means absolutely nothing, and changes nothing as well. It doesn't mean I have to like what transpired though. It's similar to displeasure at a sports team you like losing. And I'm not trying to subvert the truth, I am once again, just giving my opinion, or what I would have chose to do if I had been in charge of what would change in BW2. I perhaps could have worded my preference of Marshal or Cheren better by saying that I believe they were more fitting, and not implying anyone else should or must think that.

    Still the Unova Champion in my book.

  8. #473
    Hariyama Fan Hariyama5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    I think Iris is fit to be Champion, but Banjirou would be also okay. I think maybe there should of been two champions and which champion you battle depends on the version you get. The champion that you don't battle at the Pokemon League maybe could make a small appearance in the post-game, but hey are just my opinions.

  9. #474
    Registered User Ivysaur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    I kind of like the idea about Iris/Banjirou being version-exclusive Champions. Both are associated with areas that differ depending on the version.

  10. #475
    Hariyama Fan Hariyama5's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

    I think Banjirou is Alder's grandson, so maybe he passed on his role was passed onto him by Alder. In the other version maybe Drayden spreads good word about Iris to Alder.

  11. #476
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Lancearl View Post
    Seems like an alright team. The three on the right are cool the three on the left aren't - would be nice to come up against a legendary but meh.
    Lapras, Haxorus and Hydreigon aren't cool? It's obviously a matter of opinion, but I'm pretty sure that most people prefer them to the other three members.

  12. #477
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    I think the game should work a bit closer with the anime, they can do it, for Yellow, but yellow should have been the template, not a one off. Obviously they didn't have enough Gen 5 dragons to fill her team with, but why couldn't they make Haxorus a boy and replace Aggron with Excadrill and give her a Dragonite to replace one of the other none Dragon;s that way.

  13. #478
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    replace Aggron with Excadrill
    I'd say that Aggron at least looks like a monster that is vaguely dragon-like, whereas Excadrill doesn't. Besides, it is a good thing that Iris has two Pokémon from previous generations.

    and give her a Dragonite to replace one of the other none Dragon;s that way.
    When the initial spoiler didn't reveal Iris' sixth Pokémon (Lapras), I thought that it might a Dragonite since it had been shown in one of the game commercials for some strange reason (despite not being added to the Unova Pokédex), but I'm glad that isn't the case. Dragonite is already associated with two dragon specialists (Lance and Clair).

    I don't see why the anime should affect the games, especially when it comes to Iris.

  14. #479
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    I think the game should work a bit closer with the anime, they can do it, for Yellow, but yellow should have been the template, not a one off. Obviously they didn't have enough Gen 5 dragons to fill her team with, but why couldn't they make Haxorus a boy and replace Aggron with Excadrill and give her a Dragonite to replace one of the other none Dragon;s that way.
    I don't see how anything can follow off of Yellow's template when the anime is based on the games. Yellow was a special edition that was released much later in the series, and we can see that even then, the anime didn't affect its full development past Cinnabar (Yellow was released before then).

    You're wondering why they couldn't make Haxorus a boy. Iris had a Haxorus in B/W, and it was female. Why couldn't the anime be consistent with the games in that regard? Should the game's canon have been completely rewritten for the sake of the anime?

    I don't see how or why the source material should be closer to other mediums that derive from it, and make the conscious choice to deviate in their retellings.
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  15. #480
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    Default Re: Iris's Team

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    I think the game should work a bit closer with the anime, they can do it, for Yellow, but yellow should have been the template, not a one off. Obviously they didn't have enough Gen 5 dragons to fill her team with, but why couldn't they make Haxorus a boy and replace Aggron with Excadrill and give her a Dragonite to replace one of the other none Dragon;s that way.
    I don't see how anything can follow off of Yellow's template when the anime is based on the games. Yellow was a special edition that was released much later in the series, and we can see that even then, the anime didn't affect its full development past Cinnabar (Yellow was released before then).

    You're wondering why they couldn't make Haxorus a boy. Iris had a Haxorus in B/W, and it was female. Why couldn't the anime be consistent with the games in that regard? Should the game's canon have been completely rewritten for the sake of the anime?

    I don't see how or why the source material should be closer to other mediums that derive from it, and make the conscious choice to deviate in their retellings.
    Well the key part of my post was " think the game should work a bit closer with the anime" that doesn't mean the anime should be dictating the game, but they should BOTH be working together, obviously I'm not arguing for them to be the same with one just being on tv, but examples you pointed out such as the anime could have made Axew a girl.

    Also I agree it's a bit hard for the games to follow the anime when the games come out first, but BW2 came out after the BW episodes we have seen, when they were working on BW2, I think they would have known about Iris' Dragonite and Excadrill.

    I'm speaking from a personal point of view here, but I think fans would like to battle the Iris from the anime, and be able to imagine that this is the girl who started with her Axew in the village of Dragons and now became the champion even if you never see that in the anime.

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