Thread: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

It's not as if Iris being a strong trainer came out of nowhere given her abilities were alluded to. And let's take this into consideration, Drayden chose her to guard the DNA Link Pin after he's gone, that's something more important than any title.

And the irony of it being impossible for Iris to be champion given all the other trainers who managed it at her age, and had even less experience. I guess we can only accept natural prodigies when they're the PC...or Banjiro.

I mean, when it comes to an established character who had been alluded to as a prodigy, and the grandson of the Champion that came from nowhere? I can't believe people would prefer Alder being replaced by Alder Jr., and having higher levels is hardly justified since everything post-game is leveled up, and he only had a team of three.

I don't care what people say, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people's opinions were coloured by some Anime-bias.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

I don't care what people say, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people's opinions were coloured by some Anime-bias.

I'd say that's probably right. The anime ruined Iris' character from the games. They are completely different characters.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people's opinions were coloured by some Anime-bias.

Not really, as the anime has never been like the games. Besides the obvious reason for me, It rubs me the wrong way having a little kid with the most prolific position. I know she, like the player is suppose to be a prodigy, but to me, I just get the vibe that hard work and experience means jack shit, and you'd best hope to be born lucky. Lemme tell ya, if I was like Pryce, and had been training for 50 years, and got beaten by a random kid who hadn't even been training for 50 years, I'd eat a bullet out of shame.

EDIT: I also dislike children in real life. Whether that affects my opinion here, I don't know myself.

Originally Posted by Signas

Not really, as the anime has never been like the games.

Not being like the games doesn't change the fact that Iris exists in both mediums, and the most prominent portrayal is from the anime.

It rubs me the wrong way having a little kid with the most prolific position. I know she, like the player is suppose to be a prodigy, but to me, I just get the vibe that hard work and experience means jack shit, and you'd best hope to be born lucky.

Quite a strange thing to say given that you wanted Banjiro to be the champion instead and he appears to be the same age as Iris. Sure, he's stronger, but your gripe is that Iris is just a kid, and in that very same post, you wanted Banjiro for the possibility of having a "bratty" (i.e., mentally immature) Champion.

Having Banjiro as Champion also creates a worse message than "being born lucky", its being born to privilege. Yeah, Champion isn't technically a blood inherited title, but it has the same overtones as other genres like Naruto, where characters of high position are somehow all related to each other (i.e., success is in their blood). Iris was an adopted girl recognized for her talents, and rose to the top on her own merit. Obviously, she was lucky in that she got adopted by Drayden, and because of this, was given a chance to battle Alder. However, what got her to the point where she beat Alder and became Champion was because of her ability to hold her own against him.

Lemme tell ya, if I was like Pryce, and had been training for 50 years, and got beaten by a random kid who hadn't even been training for 50 years, I'd eat a bullet out of shame.

Too bad Pryce doesn't think that, as he gracefully embraces the new generation.

I'd ask "what's with the age-biased attitude" but you explained it already. Iris is young, so all her achievements must be because she's lucky and didn't work at it. Yes, Iris has natural talent, which probably helped propel her to where she is. However, to say she was "born lucky" and that she did not work or did not have experience is ridiculous. We don't know how long any of the trainers have been at it, for all we know, Grimsely could have been training after Iris got started (we know Iris had been training ever since Drayden adopted her), but his experience is not put into question because he is an adult.

Like it or not, Iris as the Champion likely has as much battle experience as Red did on Mt. Silver (2+ at least a year training with Drayden), and probably had much better training experience given that she has Drayden as a teacher.

All you're doing is disregarding any effort a person puts in to get to where they are simply because of their age. And its quite obvious there's more to it than just that given that you were so welcoming of Banjiro. Champion or not, you didn't even question how he got so powerful. Iris, its obviously luck. But Banjiro? It's fine. Given this, I'd say your natural bias against children has nothing to do with your dislike of Iris being the Champion, but simply because it is Iris who is the Champion.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

Originally Posted by Signas

Not really, as the anime has never been like the games.

Not being like the games doesn't change the fact that Iris exists in both mediums, and the most prominent portrayal is from the anime.

It rubs me the wrong way having a little kid with the most prolific position. I know she, like the player is suppose to be a prodigy, but to me, I just get the vibe that hard work and experience means jack shit, and you'd best hope to be born lucky.

Quite a strange thing to say given that you wanted Banjiro to be the champion instead and he appears to be the same age as Iris. Sure, he's stronger, but your gripe is that Iris is just a kid, and in that very same post, you wanted Banjiro for the possibility of having a "bratty" (i.e., mentally immature) Champion.

Having Banjiro as Champion also creates a worse message than "being born lucky", its being born to privilege. Yeah, Champion isn't technically a blood inherited title, but it has the same overtones as other genres like Naruto, where characters of high position are somehow all related to each other (i.e., success is in their blood). Iris was an adopted girl recognized for her talents, and rose to the top on her own merit. Obviously, she was lucky in that she got adopted by Drayden, and because of this, was given a chance to battle Alder. However, what got her to the point where she beat Alder and became Champion was because of her ability to hold her own against him.

Lemme tell ya, if I was like Pryce, and had been training for 50 years, and got beaten by a random kid who hadn't even been training for 50 years, I'd eat a bullet out of shame.

Too bad Pryce doesn't think that, as he gracefully embraces the new generation.

I'd ask "what's with the age-biased attitude" but you explained it already. Iris is young, so all her achievements must be because she's lucky and didn't work at it. Yes, Iris has natural talent, which probably helped propel her to where she is. However, to say she was "born lucky" and that she did not work or did not have experience is ridiculous. We don't know how long any of the trainers have been at it, for all we know, Grimsely could have been training after Iris got started (we know Iris had been training ever since Drayden adopted her), but his experience is not put into question because he is an adult.

Like it or not, Iris as the Champion likely has as much battle experience as Red did on Mt. Silver (2+ at least a year training with Drayden), and probably had much better training experience given that she has Drayden as a teacher.

All you're doing is disregarding any effort a person puts in to get to where they are simply because of their age. And its quite obvious there's more to it than just that given that you were so welcoming of Banjiro. Champion or not, you didn't even question how he got so powerful. Iris, its obviously luck. But Banjiro? It's fine. Given this, I'd say your natural bias against children has nothing to do with your dislike of Iris being the Champion, but simply because it is Iris who is the Champion.

Meh, you're right. I said Banjirou because I just really like him. I actually don't really have any personal bias against Iris. I'm totally indifferent to her. Though really, it's just a game. I'm not really that annoyed about it.

Originally Posted by Signas

Meh, you're right. I said Banjirou because I just really like him. I actually don't really have any personal bias against Iris. I'm totally indifferent to her. Though really, it's just a game. I'm not really that annoyed about it.

Could have fooled anyone given that you were one of the major posters trying to justify Alder's loss and invalidate Iris' position.

Y'know, I gotta wonder if Iris wasn't an NPC, would we have as much 'she doesn't deserve her position' going on? Consider any of the player characters. None of them have been training for even a year and they can defeat Leaders/E4s/Champions and catch all sorts of Legendary Pokémon, yet they never seem to get flak for it. Why is that?

Originally Posted by The Outrage

Originally Posted by Signas

Meh, you're right. I said Banjirou because I just really like him. I actually don't really have any personal bias against Iris. I'm totally indifferent to her. Though really, it's just a game. I'm not really that annoyed about it.

Could have fooled anyone given that you were one of the major posters trying to justify Alder's loss and invalidate Iris' position.

That's just because I really like Alder. Not hate Iris. And hey, this is a forum for discussion. It was my input/opinion. I'm not losing sleep over it or nothing.

Originally Posted by Crysta Blade

Y'know, I gotta wonder if Iris wasn't an NPC, would we have as much 'she doesn't deserve her position' going on? Consider any of the player characters. None of them have been training for even a year and they can defeat Leaders/E4s/Champions and catch all sorts of Legendary Pokémon, yet they never seem to get flak for it. Why is that?

Yes, it's obvious that her being an NPC is the reason some people distinguish her from the player characters. It seems that a lot of fans don't view the player characters as being more than avatars for themselves. It doesn't help that only Red has been established as a canon character, who still remains silent.

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Originally Posted by Garulu

Corless is just... bad.

And now it's actually Colress. It's worse now. :(

Colress is definitely the weirdest name I ever heard... but I don't know, it sounds better than Corless.

Originally Posted by Mantis

Originally Posted by The_Doctor

Originally Posted by Garulu

Corless is just... bad.

And now it's actually Colress. It's worse now. :(

Colress is definitely the weirdest name I ever heard... but I don't know, it sounds better than Corless.

Not that it makes any difference, as they've already decided, I always though Professor Chrome would be a great name for him. It's similar to the japanese name, plus it kinda represents his looks and his pokemon.

Why are people under the impression that Achroma is an actual Pokemon Professor? Did I miss something?

Originally Posted by smalllady

Why are people under the impression that Achroma is an actual Pokemon Professor? Did I miss something?

I'd like to know why we're talking about Colress in this thread in the first place.

On topic, I'd like to know where it explicitly states Brycen retired from being a gym leader. His Memory link with Alder only implied that he was going back to the movies (whereas Alder specifically decided to step down), and we know people can hold two jobs at once in this game. His gym is also fully intact with Clyde, so at most I'd say he's on sabbatical while working on movies.

For some reason, the topic of names was brought up a few pages back. Probably gym leader names...then other character's names were brought up.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

On topic, I'd like to know where it explicitly states Brycen retired from being a gym leader. His Memory link with Alder only implied that he was going back to the movies (whereas Alder specifically decided to step down), and we know people can hold two jobs at once in this game. His gym is also fully intact with Clyde, so at most I'd say he's on sabbatical while working on movies.

He's actually at the end of the gym once you work through the puzzle. He just says a few words and then walks off. So I'll probably agree with you.