Thread: Gym Leader/Elite 4/Champion Discussion

Originally Posted by The Outrage

There wasn't foreshadowing on Marshal's part. All he said was:

Marshal: My master told me about this, so I came to see. Do you understand? Even if you lose in battle... As long as you surpass your past self, you've still achieved a victory over yourself. So for that purpose, through battle, we see opponents! We see Pokémon! And we see ourselves!
Cheren: ...I suppose that's a line you're passing down from Alder?
Marshal: ...Well, yeah. What I want is to fight a Trainer who sees themselves that way... In associating with such a Trainer, I know I and my Pokémon would get even stronger...

For Marshal, surpassing oneself is victory enough. He doesn't need a title. Just like how Banjirou doesn't need a title. There's got to be a lot of irony for Marshal to be passing on those words of Alder, and then wanting to be Champion when Alder himself gave up the role of being the active Champion during the BW-era to travel the region, only returning to that seat in an attempt to foil Team Plasma's plan.

Also, if Alder wasn't beaten, then it would make sense that the next strongest trainer in the League, one of the Elite 4, to replace him until a Champion is found and another trainer get promoted. Saying Iris didn't beat Alder just makes it seem like they plucked a random trainer who had not proven her qualifications to beat the league. Yes, Iris had potential, but unless she showed it by beating the League, I doubt the League would have chosen her over Drayden.

He was beaten. By Hilbert/Hilda. I'd say they gave up their position to look for N, and Alder re-claimed his title. But Iris? I HIGHLY doubt, even in the two years between games, that she would be strong enough to take on the Elite Four and Alder. And if she did, then it would be the biggest fluke in the history of Pokemon.

You know , Now I really wanna read B2W2 Manga !
Because I wanna how ''Champion Princess Iris'' appear and act in that Manga !
By the way , Iris team seem too vicious for a Girl team !
It feel like Iris has the team Draydan Should has while Draydan have a team Iris should have!
For Example , Iris Should have a Altaria instate of Draydan both as a Girl and Champion !

Originally Posted by Garulu

Lapras looks like a dinosaur and Iris clearly have a dinosaur/dragon-based team. It is a better choice than Milotic, which is based on Sirens. I am very pleased with her non-dragon Pokémon. Lapras is one of the most interesting Kanto Pokémon, Aggron is the freaking boss and Archeops isn't bad, plus it have a stunning design.

But Lapras can't move without water !
Plus , There are English Dragon & Chinese Dragon !
Shouldn't Iris have a Pokemon that based on a Chinese Dragon! or a Pokemon that look like a Chinese Dragon such as Gyarados or Milotic !
Anyway
I want Another B2W2 Animated Promo which shows Champion Princess Iris!

Originally Posted by Taiyou

He was beaten. By Hilbert/Hilda. I'd say they gave up their position to look for N, and Alder re-claimed his title. But Iris? I HIGHLY doubt, even in the two years between games, that she would be strong enough to take on the Elite Four and Alder. And if she did, then it would be the biggest fluke in the history of Pokemon.

Actually, when I look at the dialogue again regarding Alder's reluctance to return being the Champion, I think I'd have to agree with you that he may simply have just retired. Perhaps its a scenario similar to how Blue won the Championship*, where Iris simply needed to beat the Elite 4 because there was no other Champion available. Obviously all fan theory, but it makes a bit more sense given Alder's personality.

I personally don't understand why you don't think Iris could develop so quickly over two years (she was a qualified gym leader) when her talent has been explicitly stated, and that trainers just as young as her, with less experience battling have become Champions in far less time (e.g., Red, Blue, Ethan, to name a few). Her team's rematch levels certainly seems to suggest she may have the potential to be stronger than Cynthia (Game Freak has actually used rematch levels in the past to hint at this), and it seems like its nothing but Alder fanboyism and bias against Iris that makes you think this. The argument that two years (plus how many years Iris has already been in training) isn't enough is pretty much a moot point given what we know about past Champions in other leagues. There's absolutely nothing to support that game-canon Iris couldn't have done this, and a lot of evidence that she could have. Her exceptional talent has been noted by a veteran trainer in Drayden's house, she was strong enough for Drayden to allow her to be a trainer's eighth gym challenge, and she's been training at an earlier age than most trainers even start, and had two years afterwards to beat the League. Other trainers have achieved this, and more, in the span of one year without prior training experience. Prodigies exist in the Pokemon World, and Iris is one of them. You're just going to have to accept that.

*

"I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, <player>! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead.

Why would Lance say the last line if its a standard Elite 4 + Champion battle? The only explanation I can think of is that there was no active Champion to challenge Blue.

My thoughts on what I've seen of Gym Leaders E4 and Champion

-Cheren: Love the new design and the more mature role and outlook he has in this game. His gym was a bit underwhelming in terms of look and puzzle, but also very refreshing in terms of actually making use of the trainer school as something other than that building that serves no real purpose. His team is underwhelming, I like that you get to rebattle him later on as part of the main storyline with a fully evolved team and a Chillaccino to complete his normal trio. The one think that rebuked me a bit was that Cheren's most iconic pokémon was Choroneko/Lepardas in BW, while Musharna and Mooland were Bianca, so it feels weird to see him with a Mooland now. XD
- Homika: Really love the gym design, her team and design is interesting.
- Arti: Love the new gym design, except for the acid trippy rainbow room. His team is disappointing. As much as i like Kurumayu as a pokémon, why put him there if you have Hahakomori as a pokémon. There's so many bug types in Isshu, it really makes no sense to go for the same evolutionary line in the same gym.
- Kamiture: Looooooove the new look. Girl is fierce. She is such a troll too. At first, I was disappointed there had been no change to her gym, but that's because at the end, after beating all the gym trainers, you learn that she's not at the gym and you have to beat some models/trainers on the runway to get to her. Troll. XD
- Yacon: New puzzle is ok, but I feel like his team is less interesting this time around. Sandpan is pretty bland and offers very little variety.
- Fuuro: Love the new design and that they kept her sadistic thing where the player actually gets flown across the gym and crashes into stuff. Not a huge skarmory fan, but I like the variety it brings to her team.
- Shaga: Best Gym animation out of the bunch. I like there's no longer two members of the same evolutionary line on his team. Really like his whole role as in the Plasma storyline.
- Shizui: I really like his gym design and puzzle. His team is good, but I would have liked to see a bit more challenge in there. None of Pokémon are fast and resist electricity, so it's pretty much a slaughterhouse if you have a strong grass or electric type at your disposal.

- Shikimi: Love the new animation for her room. Good call with switching out Burungel for Fuwaride.
- Giima: Creepy stairs are awesome. No team change is a bummer.
- Cattelya: Wow, ok, emerging from a rose made up of sparklez looks good, the lack of change in her team is underwhelming as well. Plus, without the bed, it makes her yawning image feel a bit weird.
- Renbu: Same as Giima and Cattelya. Didn't really feel fresh.

- Iris: I don't really mind Iris being the Champion, she had a similar role as Adeku in the both games where as Shaga and every other leaders were very tied to their cities due to their primary occupations. That being said, it's the first time where it feels like there's no novelty with the Champion. Someone the player's age was done in gen I, Dragon/Fossil/Dragonlike water type was done in Gen II, 8th gym leader that later becomes champion was done in Emerald, Female Champion was done in DP, there's nothing really that's never been done before and it feels like a mash of everything that's been done before rather than go into a different direction. I would actually have liked to have a Wallace-like Champion that's single type but not water, but really shows off the variety of that type through secondary typing and different movesets or a Champion that really focused on status moves. The room looks good, wonder if that's a statue of the Original Dragon? New look is better than old look, but just okay, nothing more. Her team looks okay but a bit predictable. That there's two repeat dragons with Shaga is a bummer, kinda like it was in Johto with Clair and Lance.

@Taiyou;

Looks like we were both right. New information regarding Memory Links. Alder chooses to retire to search for te meaning of living with Pokemon.

However, he also challenged Iris to a battle and lost. Basically, Alder chose Iris as his successor and tested her, and she passed.

The clothes were also Drayden's idea, so Iris isn't being a pretentious prick so much as humouring Drayden.

Originally Posted by Hurricane Kishore

But Lapras can't move without water !

So...? It still looks like a dinosaur.

Originally Posted by Hurricane Kishore

Shouldn't Iris have a Pokemon that based on a Chinese Dragon! or a Pokemon that look like a Chinese Dragon such as Gyarados or Milotic !

Maybe, but I am glad she don't have a Gyarados. Nothing against the species, though.
And Milotic is based on Sirens, not Chinese Dragons.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

However, he also challenged Iris to a battle and lost.

What a loser. I like Alder a lot, but man. He can't ever win anything, can he?

Originally Posted by Signas

Originally Posted by The Outrage

However, he also challenged Iris to a battle and lost.

What a loser. I like Alder a lot, but man. He can't ever win anything, can he?

He's also old. Logic dictates that it's the job of the young to take over from where the old left off.

Huh. I just realized. Alder is the oldest Champ we've ever had. Makes sense if you think about it.

Originally Posted by Eitarou

Originally Posted by Signas

Originally Posted by The Outrage

However, he also challenged Iris to a battle and lost.

What a loser. I like Alder a lot, but man. He can't ever win anything, can he?

He's also old. Logic dictates that it's the job of the young to take over from where the old left off.

Huh. I just realized. Alder is the oldest Champ we've ever had. Makes sense if you think about it.

Just because you're old, doesn't mean you're battling ability declines--especially if you're continually raising new Pokemon. Alder technically didn't need to retire, and based on the memory link, if Alder had not approached Iris, she wouldn't have bothered to take the title in the first place. Besides, he didn't "retire" really, he stepped down as Champion so that he can learn how to better improve the relations between humans and Pokemon. It's the same reason Brycen "retired" from being a gym leader. The only difference is Alder doesn't have a formal job.

I heard from somewhere that before you go on Plasma's boat near the end game, Shizui had secretly snuck on to open the door/lower the ramp for our heros. Some talk happens and then he leaves.
"Will you come with us?"
"lol noep *walks off"
Something like that.

Another thing I wanted to say is that Iris being a Champion is better than Caitlin being an Elite 4. THAT was out of bloody nowhere, and I'm annoyed she's still an E4 when Darach is nowhere to be seen. :< At least Giima is still there.

I'm looking forward to BW2, but there is just one thing in the game that I dread; they're replacing Cilan, Chilli, and Cress with Cheren! One of the most unique gym in the series with CHEREN. I can see why people might like this change, but they're also ruining Cheren's look and reputation! Also, his team is a PATRAT AND A LILLIPUP. What happened to his epic line-up?

In the animated preview it shows Cheren with a stoutland fighting alongside the the protagonist and rival, so he may have a bigger role. I also saw a list thing that said Pokemon trainer Dent, and he had a simisage, so he may reappear.

Of course, the first gym leader should challenge beginning trainers with level 60+ Pokemon. Makes sense.

Try playing through the game more, then you'll find his epic line up.

Originally Posted by The Outrage

Of course, the first gym leader should challenge beginning trainers with level 60+ Pokemon. Makes sense.

You know, that actually works in my favour. If he has an epic line-up of level 60+s, how come he's only the first Gym Leader?