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Thread: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

  1. #1981
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by Grass Type Trainer View Post
    Here's a crazy idea. If we assume that Youkai are similar enough to Fairies to be considered their eastern equivalent, it's possible that we'll get some Youkai-based Fairies in the future.

    Also, how about some of the Youkai Pokemon that already exist gaining a Fairy subtype? Obviously things like Espeon (an Eeveelution) and Shiftry (already dual typed) are highly unlikely, but what about things like Ninetales and Zoroark?

    Wouldn't it be cool if Ninetales became a Fire/Fairy type (although that might severely affect the metagame, taking Drought into account,) or Zoroark became Dark/Fairy? I know these are unlikely retcons, but still, it's something to think about.
    Maybe. Though youkai is term more commonly used for stuff like demons and malevolent spirits. From what I've come across the term "yosei" seems to be used for mythological beings we would call fairies.
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  2. #1982
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    As far as youkai go, Mawile could be retyped. Given that it's in the Fairy group anyways and as been in quite a few rumors at this point, I wouldn't be surprised.
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  3. #1983
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweilous View Post
    We don't know if Sylveon's not stronger then Gardevior, for all we know it shares Espeon's Spatk stat (which beats Gardevior's)
    By five points. Out of 130. Oh that will make all the difference between 50% damage and a OHKO all right....

    Ultimately, I don't think we have enough data to write it off completely as a weakness yet.
    No, I think we almost do have that data. GTT crunched numbers using no IV or EV or Nature influence. Giving Gardevoir any investments would only increase the damage it did, while the attack was shown from Hydreigon's perspective so we know its HP; so the only unknown variable is any investment in its Sp.Def (which, between the min and max values shown on Bulbapedia could reduce the damage taken by almost half).
    Last edited by Stratelier; 15th June 2013 at 12:25 AM.

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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    The Japanese page about the Fairy type says that some old Pokémon have been re-classified by scholars.
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  5. #1985
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    We can't forget about Snubbull! It's classified as the Fairy Pokemon already, so I'm thinking it HAS to be part Fairy now.
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    The Japanese page about the Fairy type says that some old Pokémon have been re-classified by scholars.
    I thought that would be the only justification given. When Gold and Silver came out, they tried to play off Steel and Dark as literally new types. Which made games set before that time nonsensical (GIII) and they dropped that entirely in the HGSS games.



    We can't forget about Snubbull! It's classified as the Fairy Pokemon already, so I'm thinking it HAS to be part Fairy now.
    At this point Clefairy and Snubbull's lines are the only ones that would UPSET me if they weren't re-typed.
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  7. #1987
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by Stratelier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zweilous View Post
    We don't know if Sylveon's not stronger then Gardevior, for all we know it shares Espeon's Spatk stat (which beats Gardevior's)
    By five points. Out of 130. Oh that will make all the difference between 50% damage and a OHKO all right....
    Never said it did, I just said that it could be stronger and have Espeon's stat. Nitpicky sure, but it was to make a point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stratelier View Post
    No, I think we almost do have that data. GTT crunched numbers using no IV or EV or Nature influence. Giving Gardevoir any investments would only increase the damage it did, while the attack was shown from Hydreigon's perspective so we know its HP; so the only unknown variable is any investment in its Sp.Def (which, between the min and max values shown on Bulbapedia could reduce the damage taken by almost half).
    And if it could reduce the damage by half with enough investment, couldn't that be enough to throw off the data?

    Again, I'm just being hypothetical, I like looking over all the pieces before I make a claim and some of these pieces are missing, which can affect the outcome.

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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Regarding the Fairy Wind move, I have a feeling it really does do incredibly low damage. 20 or 25 sounds about right. Considering Furabebe was shown using the same move, I think it's the "generic low-level starter move" for the type. Basically the Fairy equivalent to Pound/Peck/Water Gun/Vine Whip/etc. I believe Game Freak showed it in the trailers because it will be a very common move for fairy pokemon like Furabebe and Gardevoir to learn as they level up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grass Type Trainer View Post
    On the other hand, finding a non-Pokemon with access to offensive Poison type moves is relatively difficult. Finding one who is actually a good Pokemon in their own right is even more difficult. I don't know how many Dragons can learn Sludge Bomb or Gunk Shot, but I imagine not many.

    Where am I going with this?

    The point I'm trying to make is that, if Fairy is indeed weak to Poison (and resisted by Poison,) Dragon users would be heavily compelled to include a Poison type on their teams, which is a major selling point that Ice just does not have the luxury to get.
    I know this was a while ago that this was written, but I already crunched the numbers for Dragon Pokemon and the Steel and Poison moves they learn (poison and steel because those are the types the rumor claims are super affective against Fairy. As I said before, "So as of this very second, there are only 3 dragon pokemon that can't learn a damaging Steel or Poison Type move in one way or another by the time they are fully evolved (Reshiram and the Latis). Coincidentally, all three, from the leaked info we currently have (which may or may not be true) actually take Neutral or Resistant Damage from fairy attacks."



    So while what you said is definitely true and could be good news for poison pokemon, it's not exactly the only option that will be out there. Dragons are just that versatile.

    And for all of you people still arguing that Immunity to Dragon is just too much, it's TOTALLY NOT. Even with STAB super-effective attacks, it doesn't have a chance without that immunity. Is there any pokemon a competitive trainer packing a fully-evolved Dragon pokemon would even blink at, especially if their pokemon had even one swords dance buff or a substitute up? If you aren't a competitive battler, then I'll tell you the answer I've come to from my experience there: NO. The primary strategy for Dragon pokemon in the competitive sphere is to throw your dragon pokemon out during an attack they resist (like fire, for instance), use a swords-dance boost while the opponent freaks out and tries to switch in something that can maybe kill it. So once that pokemon is in, the dragon either A) uses a move that's super-effective and boosted by that swords dance and the dragon's monster attack, and it doesn't matter what moves it's opponent knows because it nearly always hits first with boosted speed from the swords dance and naturally monster stats, and anything fast enough to out-speed it can't deal enough damage to OHKO it nor has enough defense to live through the super-effective attack, B) uses that STAB Outrage that does 120 base damage, boosted from the swords dance and sky high attack stat, and pretty much kills the vast majority of pokemon in one hit, except for a couple steel pokemon that are defensively oriented, or C) if you have a priority move (like Ice Shard) it's a little leery of, it may use some kind of priority move like Extreme Speed to outspeed you every time, take a single hit and shrug it off because of it's great defensive stats, and then just extreme speed you again for a quick 2HKO.

    So basically a vast majority of the time, unless you have another dragon, you lose, and unless your dragon is faster than the other dragon, you're still going to lose. A Fairy NEEDS that immunity just to Survive option B, the dragon still has option A to kill it off, which works really damn well, let me tell you, and makes option C more chancy.

    If Fairy is immune to dragon and has the capability to be a threat, you will actually be able to make the opponent consider a switch-out (unless the dragon learns a priority move that's super-effective against the Fairy pokemon, in which case you're still probably fucked, and considering a bunch of dragon pokemon learn poison and steel moves right now, even without a lot of movepool modification they have a few aces in their sleeve already), which could give you're team a fighting chance. Still, if that opponent has a pokemon set-up for killing fairies, it can switch that pokemon in, take out your counter, and then blow through the rest of your team with his dragon like usual. Making Fairy alone super-effective AND immune to dragon, isn't going to nerf dragons completely. It's just going to give players more options to counter them and a fighting chance to actually take one out without havign to rely on getting lucky.

    Because Dragon as a type isn't overpowered because of type-matchups. For crying out loud it's only super effective against itself. It's over-powered because a characteristic of pokemon of that type is that they are extremely powerful, stat, ability and move-pool wise. Other than the steps GF has taken, the only way to bring them down to size would be to limit their move pool, bring down their stats, or give another type super-effective status. As fans of dragon type have argued, dragons are powerful and they are supposed to be that way, so those other options, as the E3 round-table confirmed, weren't something they wanted to do, and after that basically a new type or extreme reconfiguring of the type-chart was pretty much the only option. Hence, Fairy type.
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  9. #1989
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by NoirGrimoir View Post
    Regarding the Fairy Wind move, I have a feeling it really does do incredibly low damage. 20 or 25 sounds about right. Considering Furabebe was shown using the same move, I think it's the "generic low-level starter move" for the type. Basically the Fairy equivalent to Pound/Peck/Water Gun/Vine Whip/etc. I believe Game Freak showed it in the trailers because it will be a very common move for fairy pokemon like Furabebe and Gardevoir to learn as they level up.
    Pound and Water Gun have a base power of 40, while Peck and Vine Whip's number is 35. Even if Fairy Wind's power were as low as 35, it would still take at least 112 points from Hydreigon assuming 4x effectiveness and no investment.

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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Poison Sting, an intro poison move has only 15, Pin Missile only does 20, Absorb does 25 and Astonish does only 30. That those particular moves I mentioned aren't quite as low as the 20 or 25 I said, doesn't really mean anything. I was comparing Fairy Wind to the moves because of the purpose they serve as a sort of "first STAB move". I wasn't really comparing their bps specifically. Sorry if that was misleading.

    It wouldn't really surprise me either way if Fairy turned out to be super-effective against dark or not. I think Dark could stand to have another weakness, though I agree that based on that trailer scene Fairy Wind has either very low bp (which I think is at least decently possible), or Dark takes neutral damage from Fairy.

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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by NoirGrimoir View Post
    it nearly always hits first with boosted speed from the swords dance and naturally monster stats
    Just saying, but Swords Dance does not boost speed. It "only" boosts ATK by two stages :P
    I assume you meant Dragon Dance.

    Anyway, I agree with everything you said. I can kinda understand people that think Dragons should be the powerful game centering forces they are now. They are dragons after all.

    But I just can't see how some people against the existence of the Fairy type believe that dragons are currently balanced and the type chart is mostly fine.
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  12. #1992
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    I wonder if Arceus is going to appear to get his Fairy Plate !
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    I was trying to listen for a difference of sound indicating what type alignment is happening in the trailers. I couldn't hear any difference, even for the established alignments. They don't show the damage being done to Litleo, so that's inconclusive as well.
    Step into the Fairy circle

  14. #1994
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyGaga View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirGrimoir View Post
    it nearly always hits first with boosted speed from the swords dance and naturally monster stats
    Just saying, but Swords Dance does not boost speed. It "only" boosts ATK by two stages :P
    I assume you meant Dragon Dance.

    Anyway, I agree with everything you said. I can kinda understand people that think Dragons should be the powerful game centering forces they are now. They are dragons after all.

    But I just can't see how some people against the existence of the Fairy type believe that dragons are currently balanced and the type chart is mostly fine.
    I love the Dragon type, it's one of my favourite types, however I'm definitely not against the introduction of a new type, even if it is super effective against the Dragon type. Dragons are powerful, and I understand why they need to be taken down a little, although they do have set backs which don't make them indestructible like a few people make them out to be. I don't believe their stats alone make them overpowered, they would be quite weak if they had the same average stats as the other types, as it is not super effective against anything, besides itself, which the stats make up for. They need those stats. I agree they have a wide movepool, however, plenty of other Pokemon do too. They do have a lot of resistences though and only two weaknesses, and adding the Fairy type will give it three weaknesses, which will help even out the Dragon Type more.

    I'm quite Glad the Fairy type is super effective against the Dragon type in a way. I've found a positive in that a lot of Dragons have a 4x weakness against the Ice type, particularly my favourable Dragonite. The Fairy type being introduced will hopefully have more trainers going for the Fairy type, and less will opt for the Ice type, particularly if the fairy type will be super effective against the Ice type, as some speculate. Having more trainers choose the Fairy type over the Ice type will hopefully mean my Dragonite will face more Fairies and less Ice, which will be beneficial. My Dragonite also knows Iron head, so if the Steel type is super effective against the Fairy type, which is likely, then ha ha f*ck you Fairies.

  15. #1995
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    Default Re: The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

    Wheee long post :D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grass Type Trainer View Post
    Or they could just spam Scizor's Bullet Punch and exploit the Steel weakness.
    They could, except for Scizor's poor Speed which allows it to be outsped by pretty much every Dragon, most of which can at least learn Flamer or Fire Fang or some other Fire move to make Scizor's day shitty. Unless a LO/Technician-boosted Bullet Punch from an Adamant Scizor with 31 Atk IVs and 252 Atk EVs can OHKO most Dragons (or maybe even any Dragon) without a critical hit (or without getting a SD/free move in from a Dragon switch-in, which who'd switch a Dragon in to a Pokemon they're weak to?), I don't think Scizor would be the best bet for taking out Dragons if they do turn out weak to Steel.

    All that being said, GIVE MAH POISONS A VIABLE STRENGTH.


    Quote Originally Posted by Draco111115 View Post
    I can understand the reason behind why they would make a new type to try and check some imbalances, but have you guys every thought they made ice imbalanced on purpose and have no desire to change it. If that chart were truly fair, that would take much of the strategy out of it. If they specifically designed ice to be the "glass-cannon type" I don't particularly understand why they would go out of their way to give in any resistances. Just because you like it doesn't mean it shouldn't suck.
    Ice really does need to have a few more resistances and strengths imo. At the very least make it resist Grass and Bug, since most plants and insects fare badly in colder weather. Also make it resist Water; Water resisting Ice but not vice versa always annoyed me and seemed imbalanced. It should also be SE on Rock, since ice forming in the tiny cracks and crevices causes rocks irl to split and crack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grass Type Trainer View Post
    Here's a crazy idea. If we assume that Youkai are similar enough to Fairies to be considered their eastern equivalent, it's possible that we'll get some Youkai-based Fairies in the future.

    Also, how about some of the Youkai Pokemon that already exist gaining a Fairy subtype? Obviously things like Espeon (an Eeveelution) and Shiftry (already dual typed) are highly unlikely, but what about things like Ninetales and Zoroark?

    Wouldn't it be cool if Ninetales became a Fire/Fairy type (although that might severely affect the metagame, taking Drought into account,) or Zoroark became Dark/Fairy? I know these are unlikely retcons, but still, it's something to think about.
    IDK if we'd be getting a retype on things like Ninetales, it just seems awkward, but I can totally see Zorua/Zoroark gaining Fairy as a secondary type. After all, "Fairy" doesn't have to imply girly, delicate things that are inherently cute and such. Fairies, in typical lore, are very mischievous and such (even malevolent in lots of cases), so things that are mischievous or cunning in nature could easily gain Fairy as a main or secondary type.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoirGrimoir View Post
    I know this was a while ago that this was written, but I already crunched the numbers for Dragon Pokemon and the Steel and Poison moves they learn (poison and steel because those are the types the rumor claims are super affective against Fairy. As I said before, "So as of this very second, there are only 3 dragon pokemon that can't learn a damaging Steel or Poison Type move in one way or another by the time they are fully evolved (Reshiram and the Latis). Coincidentally, all three, from the leaked info we currently have (which may or may not be true) actually take Neutral or Resistant Damage from fairy attacks."



    So while what you said is definitely true and could be good news for poison pokemon, it's not exactly the only option that will be out there. Dragons are just that versatile.

    If Fairy is immune to dragon and has the capability to be a threat, you will actually be able to make the opponent consider a switch-out (unless the dragon learns a priority move that's super-effective against the Fairy pokemon, in which case you're still probably fucked, and considering a bunch of dragon pokemon learn poison and steel moves right now, even without a lot of movepool modification they have a few aces in their sleeve already), which could give you're team a fighting chance. Still, if that opponent has a pokemon set-up for killing fairies, it can switch that pokemon in, take out your counter, and then blow through the rest of your team with his dragon like usual. Making Fairy alone super-effective AND immune to dragon, isn't going to nerf dragons completely. It's just going to give players more options to counter them and a fighting chance to actually take one out without havign to rely on getting lucky.
    The problem with Iron Tail is its bad accuracy. Steel Wing is just as bad, and Metal Claw has too low of a BP to be worth a slot. Iron Defense doesn't count as it's not even a damaging move, and Toxic doesn't count because it's a status that does set damage over time, rather than a set amount of damage all at once. Gyro Ball hardly works because Rayquaza will outspeed most foes, making it do considerably less damage than other possible attacks. Flash Cannon/Iron Head/Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb are really the only viable moves Dragons can learn, but even then you're a) staying in against a type you've got a weakness to, which most players in the metagame don't do even if they have a SE move against the foe (unless they know for sure they outspeed and can OHKO the threat), and b) not getting full use out of the move since no Dragon has a Steel or Poison secondary type (excluding Palkia and Dialga) to get STAB from. You'd be better off switching to a Poison or Steel Pokemon, ESPECIALLY if Fairy ends up resisting Dragon, which shuts down most Dragons' STAB move (unless you run, say, AA and Outrage on a Nite or Dragon Claw/EQ on a Chomp).

    Actually, I just realized I'd LOVE a Poison/Steel Pokemon, especially if its design lent it to having Levitate as an Ability.


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