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  1. #16
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rellik View Post

    On point, yes, I do feel that the Third Version is canon. There seems to be too much evidence not to think so.
    That and Black and White explicitly reference Platinum's plot.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage View Post
    That and Black and White explicitly reference Platinum's plot.
    There's that, yes, which is probably the most definitive piece of evidence to put a Third Version as canon. But there are things in the other games as well. For example, Emerald was able to perfectly combine the two opposing storylines of Ruby and Sapphire. If it wasn't for that game, then either Team Magma or Team Aqua would have to be considered non-canon. HeartGold and SoulSilver both included certain elements from Crystal that weren't in the original Gold and Silver versions. Red's team in G/S/C/HG/SS only makes sense if we acknowledge the fact that he's using his team from Pokemon Yellow.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    I didn't even know there was room for discussion on this one!

    I was simply under the impression that:

    FRLG/Y occur at the same time as Emerald
    - Proof is seen through the ability to trade without the time capsule, or events that cross both regions. Yellow is semi-canon in that Red's Championship team is clearly derived from Pokémon he received from others in Yellow (Lapras/Espeon both fit this bill), but that's the only element that seems to serve as canon evidence.

    HGSS/C occur at the same time as Platinum.
    - Reasons aforementioned, particularly by Silktree.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    On the subject of whether or not [Japanese] Blue or Yellow is the "true" third version I think Blue is really the special edition one (despite what the advertising might say), since JB was really just a slight debugged, suped up japanese RG game, which is really what the non-japanese Red & Blue versions were too (and you don't hear people calling those the fourth installment of Gen I, do you). Yellow was the one that had all the hallmarks of a proper third version and should be seen as such.

    I actually hold the view that the third version is more canon than the preceding one but on the same level of canon as any remakes, with different protagonists acting as the hero/ine for each one. For instance, below are the following games I consider most canon and their corresponding hero/ines:

    Yellow = Red
    Crystal = Crys
    Emerald = May
    FrLg = Leaf
    Platinum = Dawn
    HGSS = Ethan/Lyra
    BW = Blair/Rhitlea

    I consider the remakes to take place only a few months after the originals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    The other HGSS plot additions (the Sinjoh Ruins and Ilex Forest events) are perfectly compatible with Crystal. In fact, the GS Ball would serve to explain how Celebi arrived in Ilex Forest, which the HGSS event does not do.
    How so? When the GS ball is placed in the shrine in gen II it starts shaking and celebi drops on you from the sky, not out of the ball. It doesn't seem likely to me that the GS ball did contain celebi at all, just that celebi intervened to stop you opening it, so from this outlook we still don't know how celebi came to the forest (then again, it does seem to like forests, so its probably just one of those things).



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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    In my opinion, the most recent incarnation always overrides the previous ones. This means the third version is the canon version. In cases where there is no third version, I think of the primary version (i.e. FireRed, HeartGold) as the canon version.
    Yeah, agreed with this.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    i agree, third games are canon, not only because of a better story, but because the references we have to them

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Slowpoke View Post
    The games never clearly state how much time there was between Emerald and HGSS.
    HGSS takes place three years after RSE.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunsie View Post
    HGSS takes place three years after RSE.
    I think we know that, since RSE are clearly around the same time as R/G/B/Y/FR/LG and R/G/B/T/FR/LG takes places 3 years before G/S/C/HG/SS, but it was never said outright.

    Anyway, I do have to go with the 3rd version being canon, Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and Gray/Grey/Gen V 3rd Version. Though I do think some aspects of Heart Gold, but not Soul Silver, make it sort of cross canon with Crystal.
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  9. #24
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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    How so? When the GS ball is placed in the shrine in gen II it starts shaking and celebi drops on you from the sky, not out of the ball. It doesn't seem likely to me that the GS ball did contain celebi at all, just that celebi intervened to stop you opening it, so from this outlook we still don't know how celebi came to the forest (then again, it does seem to like forests, so its probably just one of those things).
    I definitely don't think the GS Ball contained Celebi, but we know that the GS Ball made Ilex Forest restless (for some unknown reason), which is why Celebi appeared there. The HGSS event has no discernible point of origin to speak of: Where did that Celebi come from? A movie download is obviously not a sufficient answer when discussing the story. Of course, one could argue that the GS Ball appeared out of the blue in Crystal, but that's not accurate. It was given to the player for having obtained all 16 badges, and like any event item it was conceivable that it had been kept for a special person.

    But I'd say it's the events in Ecruteak that lend more credibility to Crystal than to HGSS. It is far more believable that Suicune would be encountered before Ho-Oh, and that the legendary beasts (as opposed to the Kimono Girls) would be the ones to test the player's worthiness. Ho-Oh's connection to the beasts is barely referenced in HGSS... Are we really to believe that this detail has been retconned? It seems far more feasible that Game Freak simply needed to make Ho-Oh and Lugia symmetrical for promotional reasons, and since they never had any interest in the idea that Lugia was the master of the legendary birds, they opted to make the remakes' plot shallower in this particular regard.

    Don't get me wrong: I do consider the Giovanni and Sinjoh Ruins events to be canon, as well as any other elements added in HGSS. But Crystal's take on of the story of Ecruteak is undeniably richer than that of HeartGold, let alone SoulSilver.
    Last edited by Silktree; 21st March 2011 at 10:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    I still struggle to get where fans get this opinion that Kanto and Hoenn happen at the same time and that Johto and Sinnoh happen 3 years later. There is very little evidence to support this view but it seems that it has been widely accepted. It seems that we have a case of what I like to call opiniondomino. Meaning? When a large amount of people share the same opinion, it suddenly becomes fact. Sort of like back in the day when every thought the world was flat and if you said otherwise you were called crazy lmao
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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    Saying that HGSS overwrite Crystal is good and well, but HeartGold and SoulSilver don't have identical stories: They differ from each other in exactly the same way as the main versions of recent generations do. To put a fine point on it, in HeartGold the Kimono Girls regard Ho-Oh as the restorer of the relationship between people and Pokémon, and in SoulSilver that role is given to Lugia; both versions neglect to mention what the role of the other version mascot is.
    Other than that particular difference, they are exactly the same. My guess here makes me think of two possible scenarios:

    1. Since they don't mention any role at all for the other mascot, instead of assigning it a totally different one (thus effectively making them contradictory), it could be argued that both Ho-oh and Lugia were the restorers of such relatonship, so either one could achieve the role in the game, just that in HG's scenario the Kimono girls first thought about Ho-oh and in SS Lugia was on their minds.

    2. In Black and White (or at least in Black, the version I owned) it is said that the Pokémon 'verse is actually a multiverse and that version differences (i.e. Opelucid being rural and traditional-looking in White, but futuristic and technologically developed in Black) are caused due to differences in such universe's continuities. Going by this, both HG and SS's stories happened, and in HG's continuity Ho-oh was the one who restored the relationship between humans and Pokémon, whereas in SS it was Lugia who did this.
    ...Which in turn would make ALL the versions (or at least all paired versions) canon, and this thread's topic would change form "which version is canon?" to "which continuity is the main one?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree
    If Crystal didn't exist, there would be no way to tell that the people of Ecruteak are more concerned with Ho-Oh than they are with Lugia; anyone who is eager to remove Crystal from the Generation IV universe should keep that in mind.
    Considering that Ho-oh did come back to Ecruteak but Lugia stayed in the Whirl Islands, it's still logical to assume that indeed Ecruteak has a stronger bond to Ho-oh than to Lugia, it's just that this time is not so obvioulsy stated. This way Crystal's removal doesn't hurt Johto's myths and the series story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree
    Frankly, Crystal's story makes more sense than HeartGold's does; the legendary beasts are a more logical catalyst for Ho-Oh's return than the Kimono Girls are.
    How so? The Kimono Girls live in Ecruteak and are implied to be somehow the guardians of the city and a long running clan, so they could well have been present (albeit not the current Girls) when Ho-oh did its legendary tasks and they formed a bond with it back then.

    Plus, as you already said, in HG it is said that Ho-oh was the one who restored the relationship between Pokémon and humans. Taking this into account, there MUST be at least one human bonded with Ho-oh, if you want to reflect this in the game, it is better to be a human (albeit a special human) than other Pokémon the catalyst for making Ho-oh come back. This way. being the Kimono Girls and not the beasts the ones who summoned it, not only makes sense, but actually makes more sense. Consider that the beasts, while related to Ho-oh, have nothing to do with the Pokémon-humans relationship (actually, it is the other way round, seeing that they're always running away from people). Long-short story: if it were by the beasts's influence, Ho-oh would not appear to people, but rather run away from them.

    After all, the franchise's focus is the relationship between humans and Pokémon, not between Pokémon and Pokémon.

    The other HGSS plot additions (the Sinjoh Ruins and Ilex Forest events) are perfectly compatible with Crystal. In fact, the GS Ball would serve to explain how Celebi arrived in Ilex Forest, which the HGSS event does not do.
    These events alone, by linking HGSS with Platinum, automatically make them the canon games, overwriting -for the good or the bad- GS and Crystal, whether we like it or not.

    ----------------------

    Anyways, my personal belief is that the canon version is the latest to come out, which means the third version for nonremade games, and remakes of the early ones, thus:

    1. FRLG
    2. HGSS
    3. Emerald
    4. Platinum

    The 1st Gen games were outconed by FRLG because of gameplay additions being more consistent with the cirrent mechanics than the original ones. And in future games (both GSC and HGSS) Red's Pikachu is inside its ball, which means its not Yellow Version's Pikachu (which makes me think that even before the remakes, Yellow was never canon). Plus, since FRLG don't add to the main story, it doesn't bring continuity problems that future remakes and third versions bring, and thus, this is a safe one.

    Gen II was outconed because, with FRLG being canon, it brought issues to GSC's story in which the Gen II Pokémon as well as Pokémon eggs were supposedly newly discovered whereas in FRLG both features are present despite taing place 3 years before their alleged discovery. And since these issues were fixed by HGSS by introducing a regional Dex (thus removing the "new Pokémon" issue) and Elm saying that eggs have been sighted for al long time. Furthermore, the Arceusand Cynthia event Cynthia make it clear that they share continuity with Pltinum and the Gen IV story.

    On Gen III, there is no actual proof of which is the true story other than logic and convenience.

    Finally, for Gen IV, although personally I'd wish that DP were the canon story (because of the game's opening making them an indirect sequel to GSC/HGSS instead of a mere new, independent installment like most games in the series), it is obvious that Platinum is the canon one because that is explicitly said in Black and White (and by extension, it confirms that HGSS overwrote GSC).


    Quote Originally Posted by Rellik View Post
    Red's team in G/S/C/HG/SS only makes sense if we acknowledge the fact that he's using his team from Pokemon Yellow.
    Not true. All the Pokémon he gets make sense even without taking Yellow into account. All of them are obtainable within RGB as well. The only thing that can be an issue is having the three starters instead of only one, but that can beinterpreted to be more because of version neutrality (the same reason both teams are villains in Emerald) and to represent the entire generation (after all, those starters weren't random Pokémon unlike future games'starters -they were also the version mascots and thus leaving one of them out would be neglecting such game, and since in 1999 there was no continuity issues, it was best to take all games into account that only one) thanto make Yellow cannon. Actually, it is the opposite: Yellow'c canonity wouldn't make sense, as Jessie and James are nowhere to be seen in GSC/HGSS, and Red's Pikachu is inside its ball and not outside. So I think that before FRLG, the canon version was either Blue, or the three RGB altogether.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo10 View Post
    I still struggle to get where fans get this opinion that Kanto and Hoenn happen at the same time and that Johto and Sinnoh happen 3 years later. There is very little evidence to support this view but it seems that it has been widely accepted. It seems that we have a case of what I like to call opiniondomino. Meaning? When a large amount of people share the same opinion, it suddenly becomes fact. Sort of like back in the day when every thought the world was flat and if you said otherwise you were called crazy lmao
    Right now I'm writing an essay on that topic, I wish I can finish it today. But yeah, I somehow agree with you, I don't see much undeniable proof of that. But that's for another thread.
    Last edited by VeggiePopper; 21st March 2011 at 01:42 PM.


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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo10 View Post
    I still struggle to get where fans get this opinion that Kanto and Hoenn happen at the same time and that Johto and Sinnoh happen 3 years later. There is very little evidence to support this view but it seems that it has been widely accepted. It seems that we have a case of what I like to call opiniondomino. Meaning? When a large amount of people share the same opinion, it suddenly becomes fact. Sort of like back in the day when every thought the world was flat and if you said otherwise you were called crazy lmao
    I agree with this, too. RGBY and RSE can't be happening at the same time. Differences in technology, for one. FRLG, despite being remakes, are much further ahead in technology than RGBY, so THOSE two games might take place at the same time. But not Gen I and Gen III.

    I think the games go in the order they came out in. Like this:
    RGBY -> GSC -> RS -> FRLG -> E -> DP -> Pt -> HGSS -> BW

    I consider remakes to be part of the timeline too, lining up like so. That's how it works in my story, anyway, a bit like PokeSupe, where each game that comes out gets its own arc. D| Not that it matters to me what the official timeline is, as I'll just follow my own like I always do.
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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    I agree with this, too. RGBY and RSE can't be happening at the same time. Differences in technology, for one. FRLG, despite being remakes, are much further ahead in technology than RGBY, so THOSE two games might take place at the same time. But not Gen I and Gen III.

    I think the games go in the order they came out in. Like this:
    RGBY -> GSC -> RS -> FRLG -> E -> DP -> Pt -> HGSS -> BW

    I consider remakes to be part of the timeline too, lining up like so. That's how it works in my story, anyway, a bit like PokeSupe, where each game that comes out gets its own arc. D| Not that it matters to me what the official timeline is, as I'll just follow my own like I always do.
    NO. Just no. FRLG are remakes, not sequels, to RGBY, they're the same story retold, unlike Adventures, where the FRLG arc was a new story rather than the RGB arc happening again. The change in technology is because of updated techonology in real life. But they're still the same story. So the remakes either don't happen, happen at the same time of the originals, or instead of them, but not after them.

    Saying that FRLG happened "at a different time than RGBY" is like saying "my entire life happened after my own life" or "I lived twice" because you're practically saying that RGBY happened, then happened again in FRLG (which means that Red and Red are different characters, Cinnabar island rebuilt itself and was destroyed again, Lavander Tower was turned into a radio tower, then a cemetery again and finally a radio tower again, and so on). Which obviously, is nonsense. It's like making a new Titanic movie and say that it means the Titanic was rebuilt, then hit an iceberg again and sank again.

    Yes, remakes are part of the timeline, overwriting their original namesakes and not being sequels of them.


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  14. #29
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo10 View Post
    I still struggle to get where fans get this opinion that Kanto and Hoenn happen at the same time and that Johto and Sinnoh happen 3 years later. There is very little evidence to support this view but it seems that it has been widely accepted. It seems that we have a case of what I like to call opiniondomino. Meaning? When a large amount of people share the same opinion, it suddenly becomes fact. Sort of like back in the day when every thought the world was flat and if you said otherwise you were called crazy lmao
    As far as Johto goes, its stated that it took place 3 years after Kanto. At the start of diamond and pearl the red gyrados from Johto was mentioned. This sets the games to take place around the same time as Johto's.

    I've always believed that the third versions were the canon ones. As people have said, platinum is referenced in Black and White so that adds some credence to the idea.

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    Default Re: Do you suppose the third games are canon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    As far as Johto goes, its stated that it took place 3 years after Kanto. At the start of diamond and pearl the red gyrados from Johto was mentioned. This sets the games to take place around the same time as Johto's.
    I think he was not arguing against Johto and Sinnoh, but about Kanto and Hoenn


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