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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    While BW didn't have the very best plot in RPG history by any means, I personally feel that it was enjoyable for what it was worth and the characters were sorta likable and not just mere plot devices (though they still need some work). Honestly, I don't mind the " kid saves the world" plot if each take on it show variation and offers something new to the table. Pokemon does just that, though I feel like BW could've been so much more.

    Besides, we might get an improved plot in Pokemon Gray if it's hopefully released. I mean, you know how the third version is usually an improvement over the first two versions.

    Of course, I can like smaller plots but I like a grand plot when it's good.

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandoise Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by hurristat View Post
    I like the larger, more involved plots? Why? Because they're ultimately more interesting. Compared to Team Plasma's goals, TR's goals are incredibly ill-defined (well, I always thought they were but that is neither here nor there), and their scheme to take over Kanto is merely pathetic. I don't know how they came so close to regional domination and how no one noticed or cared except a 10-year-old, but it has always been that way and it always will.

    So, long story short: Longer, more complex plots. They make the game more interesting.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    I like the smaller story. I hope GF can make a small story more interesting, but stay away from the whole save the world/universe from [insert team name here].

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Human_Umbreon View Post
    On a bit of a side note, I also would like it if there were LESS LEGENDARIES! Geez! There were about, oh, 5 legendaries in Generation I. Now, in Generation V, I'm sure there are at least over 15. Having less legendaries makes the legendaries that do appear in the games seem even more legendary.
    I hate it when people say that. ._. The Kanto legendary Pokemon were hardly legendary. Ooh, Mewtwo is a clone of the ancestor of Pokemon, Mew. Wow.

    Meanwhile, there are deep and compelling legends surrounding Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres that prove why they're "legendary". You know, like Articuno, he.....
    Well, never mind, we know Zapdos's legend is all about...something....
    Hehe, it's fine, because Moltres's legend surpasses them because...!

    ...oh wait, there is no legend to them, is there? ._. How can they be legendary when there's no legend surrounding them? I'd rather have a lot of legendaries who actually have legends to them (therefore making them LEGENDary), than some random Pokemon that is slightly stronger than other Pokemon and go "look legendary pokemons, yay".

    The bird trio are such bland and boring legendaries that it makes me laugh today to think that people think that they somehow have more worth than more fleshed-out legendary Pokemon, when they have NOTHING to back up how "legendary" they are.

    I think having more legendary Pokemon makes the Pokemon world more full and interesting, that there is so much folklore and actual LEGENDS surrounding them. The Genie Trio have more story to them than the Bird Trio. .-.

    ...

    So, on-topic now. I prefer a "save the world" plot. It makes the boring road of Being A Master much more interesting, because now I have something else to do. It adds drama and tension along the way, something I love. And it makes for much more interesting villains than "lol look at me I steal Pokemon". I want something bigger to fight for.

    I like that each Pokemon game has gotten a better and better plot as they went. Using Legendaries in the plot helps make us understand how important they are, and the disastrous results that could happen if someone misuses them or their powers; something the player character would never do. It adds another deep element to the Pokemon world.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post

    So, on-topic now. I prefer a "save the world" plot. It makes the boring road of Being A Master much more interesting, because now I have something else to do. It adds drama and tension along the way, something I love. And it makes for much more interesting villains than "lol look at me I steal Pokemon". I want something bigger to fight for.

    I like that each Pokemon game has gotten a better and better plot as they went. Using Legendaries in the plot helps make us understand how important they are, and the disastrous results that could happen if someone misuses them or their powers; something the player character would never do. It adds another deep element to the Pokemon world.
    THIS! I like save the world plots since they create a sense of urgency. As for a kid-saving-the-world plot, I'd like to imagine that the kid is a child prodigy with a lot of potential and saving the world helps him grow as a Trainer and a person since he's saving everything he holds dear to him. Plus, the BW protagonists are teenagers (though Hilda's kinda flat).

    Though to be honest, I think that BW's plot was good for Pokemon games but it was sorta lacking. I hope that Gray fixes these problems and that Gen. 6 does better.

    I do like smaller plots when they're done correctly but I like complex plots with great twists and everything else. Maybe a little bit of both like, say, Dragon Ball (Z).

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    The Kanto legendary Pokemon were hardly legendary. Ooh, Mewtwo is a clone of the ancestor of Pokemon, Mew. Wow.
    I see your point about legendary birds,I believe they're only there to trick you into using your Masterball before Mewtwo,but Mewtwo's legends is greater than any of those coming later.

    GF basically created a maze-like dungeon full of rare and powerful Pokemon which is only accessible after beating the game.
    At the end is an extremely-hard-to-catch,owerpowered and completely broken Pokemon that can beat anything.
    GF then only had to watch fandom creating the legend to their own preferences.

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    I would love to have a complex storyline, while saving the world is a universal storytelling concept that nobody can escape from, I wouls love to see the game writers to at least ONCE move away from the "get 8 badges, win Pokemon League" storyline we have been using for 15 years. Black and White got very close, but it still had the 8 Badges plotline, not to mention that I think it could have been done a lot better since the story was too fast paced in my opinion. That's what I would like to see in Gen 6, a long, nicely paced storyline that is detailed and not simple and rushed, and not abuse the infamous excuse plot of getting 8 badges for the 6th time in a row...
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    I hate it when people say that. ._. The Kanto legendary Pokemon were hardly legendary. Ooh, Mewtwo is a clone of the ancestor of Pokemon, Mew. Wow.
    Well, you have a funny way of putting it. I'd say that a pokémon that's a offspring of one of the ancestors of pokémon, created in an attempt to create the world's most powerful pokémon, rioting and razing a lab and then flee to settle in a dark cave worthy as a legend, if only an urban legend. A legend isn't just some stupid deity. I do believe that a plot revolving around Mewtwo and it's origin and creation can be way more interesting than Diamond and Pearl ever dished up with the legendaries. It's simply a more interesting pokémon, as these deities get boring pretty fast. Mewtwo is just too damn mystic.

    Any chance of this, however, is probably long past now, so it doesn't matter much. Shame, it has potential.

    Also, pokémon can be legendary just because they're really rare, and it's an accomplishment to catch them (in most cases, it isn't, though that can be just me). They don't have to have a background story to appreciate the fact that they're legendaries.


    I'm a big fan of a better plot in pokémon games, but I do believe that warrants my thoughts on what actually makes a story great. You've got the basic, interesting setting, deep, complex persons and the ability to keep it moving without it being stale.

    However, that's hardly enough. If there's something that's important, it's a sense of morality. Being the good guy is okay, but sometimes you just want to be a douche. I, for one, usually play as the good guy, but I don't mind cutting down people with a lightsaber for no reason at all. Most of all, this adds replay value. The only thing I really want to replay pokémon for is a: to get new pokémon (usually gen III to gen IV) and b: to experiment with new teams. Not once have I thought "yeah, I want to see Team Galactic again!".

    Having the option to be the bad guy usually automatically makes the game deeper. It usually implies connection to the game world, with variables that depends on the way you're acting in the game. This leads to a changing world that you help shape. That's by far a better starting ground than simply going through a world that's exactly the same the last time you played it.

    On the subject of the game world, the matter of side-quests and sub-plots must be brought up. Side-quests can make a valuable distraction to the main plot-line, and can give you additional benefits, not to mention the way it can influence the world and the main plot as well. Pokémon suck at this. Really hard. Even in a world like pokémon, it could be easy to implement more side-quests. I'm not very interested in talking to people, because I know they usually don't do a shit, or they say something you already knew. Another issue is sub-parts of the bigger plot. Pokémon isn't very flexible in this. The option to do things in a different way also makes for replay-value, but can influence the plot (for instance, by not doing a part of the plot before another, options might be locked or opened for you etc.). A strict, linear game can be interesting, but I prefer games that say; "here's your goal, this you have to do to get there, now go!". No stress to do this or that. In fact, I'd say it's more the standard in major RPGs to have this approach if you ask me (though it could be just the games I'm playing...).

    In addition, character development (well, pokémon has at least pokémon development) and a bit of humor. In fact, emphasis on humor, at least on the right places. Even in the most serious game, is good to laugh sometimes. When is the last time you laughed of a NPC in pokémon (besides when they say something really, really stupid. You know the type)? Rarely.

    I mean, I love pokémon, and I haven't planned stopping playing the games anytime soon, but man do they suck story-wise. If anything, it's too narrow and too repetitive.
    I would welcome a rather drastic approach. Remove the gyms, the evil team (emphasis on this one), the focus on all-powerful legendaries (by all means, a plot delving into the origin of a mystic pokémon is very welcome, what I mean is the current legendary copy-past plot) and perhaps even the pokémon league and rethink the concept. (Could fuck up the anime though, but then again, I don't care about that any less...). Or not cutting the gyms and all that, at the very least expand on the plot (or do something new) post-game. But not just some thoughtless island with a bunch of trainers and a legendary, but more for those that don't like the Frontier/Tower/Subway as much.
    Last edited by H-con; 25th August 2011 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Here's the problem with the current grandiose plots: Little thought was put into them, as evidenced by the fact that they don't quite mesh with the other parts of the games. Even in regard to Black and White, where N's plot was arguably more important than the badge quest, Game Freak weren't too concerned about creating a good story. As per Ken Sugimori's own admission:

    Sugimori: Yeah. Another thing is a certain down-to-earth characteristic. Until now, the stories have been small in scale—set in Japan, telling the tale of one young boy's summer. That's the basis for the Pokémon games.
    Iwata: The story of a young boy catching bugs in the summer.
    Sugimori: Yeah, it's like an extension of that. The basis for the Pokémon games is development of a story in a land the size of part of Japan about a regular boy without any special powers who sort of goes out and catches bugs and grows up a little in the process. This time, the setting is a place like New York, so the scale is big, but we kept that basis in mind when designing all the characters, and um, how should I put it? We tried not to do anything too out of place or to veer too much into fantasy. I think a sense of being grounded and of being an extension of the real world is important.
    This statement is very weird in light of the fact that a large part of the story isn't realistic at all. What I take this to mean is that not enough thought was put into the story; it was just there to make things more interesting occasionally, without detracting too much from the "bug-catching" concept. For people like myself who would actually like to see the mythology in the games be handled well, Game Freak's current approach is irritating in that it is aimed at the lowest common denominator. Some players can pass this off as quality writing using extremely mitigating criteria, while others can pretend the story just doesn't exist and focus on the gameplay. The rest are out of luck, at least for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by H-con
    I mean, I love pokémon, and I haven't planned stopping playing the games anytime soon, but man do they suck story-wise. If anything, it's too narrow and too repetitive.
    I would welcome a rather drastic approach. Remove the gyms, the evil team (emphasis on this one), the focus on all-powerful legendaries (by all means, a plot delving into the origin of a mystic pokémon is very welcome, what I mean is the current legendary copy-past plot) and perhaps even the pokémon league and rethink the concept. (Could fuck up the anime though, but then again, I don't care about that any less...)
    I agree, but I would say that the continued focus on the League is an even bigger problem than the presence of the evil teams. Gyms shouldn't be removed altogether, but they need to become an optional sidequest. They've never been a challenge and we've come to a point where we shouldn't be forced to go through the same tired quest; any Pokémon game should have a variety of bosses, but why should they always take the form of people whose job is to test other trainers? In some regards playing Pokémon games is like never graduating from elementary school.

    As for the legendaries, the correct way to include them in the story is to make them sentient characters in their own right. Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Reshiram and Zekrom just did the villain and/or the player's bidding; they were little more than plot devices. The Lake trio and Giratina were better handled, but in the latter's case no explanation was ever given for its being banished to the Distortion World, nor was any light shed on whether or not it was trying to save the normal world.

    It's a shame that not enough people give Crystal and HGSS credit for their handling of the Ecruteak legendaries. Granted, they weren't involved in any grandiose plot, but they didn't have to use their supernatural abilities (alluded to in the myths) to be relevant to the story. To date, the Johto legendaries are the only ones that seem to have not only an awareness of the world but also a sense of morality, and it is a pity that their plot potential remains untapped.

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed
    The Genie Trio have more story to them than the Bird Trio. .-.
    What little story the Kami trio have actually makes them uninteresting, and the same goes for Latias and Latios; I'd say that it is better to leave things to the fans' imagination than to come up with something really bland. Also, Jirachi, Deoxys, Cresselia, Manaphy (Phione) and Shaymin don't have any story to them. The Regis, Heatran, Victini and Meloetta leave a lot to be desired, as well; Darkrai and Genesect just barely make the cut for having an acceptable story.

    Mewtwo and Mew were enough for their time. The only pity is that their story with Mr. Fuji could have been expanded in FRLG, but instead Game Freak just added more hints.
    Last edited by Silktree; 25th August 2011 at 10:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by IelloAdventure View Post
    The thing about RPGs is most of the time youre one of the select few people who can use (monsters , magic, weapons, etc)
    In pokemon the save the world theme doesnt work out because, quite frankly, theres nothing special about the PC at all. you can catch pokemon and build an implied friendship with them, just like every other trainer out there.

    In my opinion id like to see more "normal kid" themes like in I and II, get rid of the evil team altogether, and just go about my daily life as a trainer looking for badges or something like that.
    while I do agree that it's pretty insane for the PC to manage all this stuff when he/she doesn't seem all that different from everyone else in the world, I gotta ask: if you're still involving badges, wouldn't that still lead up to eventually becoming the champion of an entire region? And doesn't that make the PC seem a bit more extraordinary? Really, it seems as if the best way to go about portraying a "normal" character is to have a game work something like Harvest Moon. There's not particularly an end to the game (though I guess the credits roll after so much time has passed in-game), and if you do accomplish anything grand, like win a festival or beat a champion, it's just kinda passed off as a side extra that doesn't really affect much. The main problem I can see with having a "normal" character, though, is legendary Pokemon. Obviously, legendaries can't go to just anyway, but at the same time, a Pokemon game shouldn't prevent a player from collecting every Pokemon there is, so I gotta wonder how that could possibly work out.

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Well, I LOVE the more grandiose plots. Frankly, BW's WAS good. I hear people on here saying that it doesn't fit, but if you pay CLOSE attention to character dialogue; they state that your character looked like they were going through ALOT. And they WERE. They weren't like Ash, who can take them head on with a straight angry face. And Cheren was frazzled by not only things dealing with Plasma, but more things internally. The Champion was in a brief state of emoness and Bianca, despite being sad and affected the worst, tried to stay upbeat.

    Frankly, there is NOTHING grandiose about it; considering the only thing Reshi and Zek could do was permaban a region. Dialga and Palkia could go through time and space, destroying all of existence. Hoenn did small in the beginning, until Groudon and Kyogre came out. It let you know about the HEFTNESS of the issue at hand.

    If you think about it, GROWN MEN couldn't even deal with that. Just chalk it up to video games. It's like Kingdom Hearts; nobody complains about a 14 year old boy saving the world from shadow demons with a giant key. Why? Cause it's awesome :D (please feel free to disagree, as this is mine and many other's opinions ^^;;).

    Just take your animals, go to the ring, and put them in a death match for some money. Save the world so that there's an ACTUAL PLOT. Think about it, would you all really LIKE pokemon if it weren't for the grandiose plots? It'd just be organized cockfights between superpowered mutant creatures (Which is awesome XD)

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    The plot for the earlier games were the weakest, in my opinion. They weren't as present in the game as they should have been for an RPG. You would only pass the villains on your way, as if they were placed specifically for you, and their only job is to hunt you down. In the later games, you actually have to travel to the enemies, instead of passing them by, and they had other motivations, and more goals than just being bad and defeating the kid.

    Regarding just training your Pokémon; who said battling the villains isn't part of that? You battle the villains as frequently as normal trainers. A game of just catching and training would be boring.

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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuujux View Post
    The plot for the earlier games were the weakest, in my opinion. They weren't as present in the game as they should have been for an RPG. You would only pass the villains on your way, as if they were placed specifically for you, and their only job is to hunt you down.
    On the contrary, you hunted them down because they were in your way. There was honestly no reason given for fighting Rockets excavating fossils in Mt. Moon other than they were in your way. Sure, you can say that it takes away from the museum, but its not as if normal trainers weren't there to take fossils either.

    Then a TR recruit on the nugget bridge only got battled because they were in your way.

    You only fought them in Celadon because you needed the Silph Scope to go up Pokemon Tower.

    You only scaled Pokemon Tower because you needed a Pokeflute, they just happened to be there, and Mr. Fuji indicated that he did not feel that he was in any danger.

    I guess you get where I'm going. As a criminal organization, I don't think they were bad, it was just the implementation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis View Post
    Seriously, guys, the lackluster story is suppose to separate the franchise from other RPGs, since it's a Nintendo game after all, and who the heck plays the games for the plot? This is like giving New Super Mario Bros. Wii or any Kirby game a bad score for a weak storyline. Do I still need to repeat myself?
    I think we should sit back and think about what you just said.

    Pokémon is setting itself apart from other RPG's, not because of any good qualities you can attach to it, but because of its mediocrity? Mario and Kirby for the most part are platformers, they are defined by that feature. What you are saying is comparable to saying that what separates Mario from other platformers is its inferior platforming. Yes, Pokemon is also a monster battling franchise, and in that respect, they are succeeding, however we cannot forget they are also marketing to us a story and an entire universe to go along with it. To say that an RPG separates itself from other RPG's because its story sucks, is to say the RPG itself sucks.

    Stories themselves of course don't have to be grandoise to be good, they could also be on a smaller scale. Too long have people been conditioned to think that if the big bad isn't out to destroy the multiverse, then the story is not worth telling. That attitude is much too apparent in this franchise, when fans believed that there could be no GenV, because there was no way to top the creator of the universe. What's worse, is rather than fans just pointing out the ridiculousness of that logic, they would much rather argue how Arceus isn't the creator of the universe thus can be topped.

    SO what I want is a good story. Sure, they've been getting better as the generations progressed, but they still leave a lot to be desired.

    But then again, when we look at earlier Zelda games, the stories aren't as well written as current ones either, and Pokemon has never been that good a story teller. BW was good for Pokemon, but anywhere else, the story would be fairly shallow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    It's a shame that not enough people give Crystal and HGSS credit for their handling of the Ecruteak legendaries. Granted, they weren't involved in any grandiose plot, but they didn't have to use their supernatural abilities (alluded to in the myths) to be relevant to the story. To date, the Johto legendaries are the only ones that seem to have not only an awareness of the world but also a sense of morality, and it is a pity that their plot potential remains untapped.
    I really liked the way the legendaries were set out. They weren't part of the main quest, yet managed to integrate themselves. Going back to what Sugimori said about telling the tale of one young boy's summer, I think HgSs captured that the best while including the legendaries.

    What started off as what seemed to be nothing more than a normal trainer's journey through the region began to unfold as part of a greater story of the one person who could bring Ho-Oh back, a beacon of hope. It seems quite fitting that they emphasized the walking-with-Pokemon feature and friendship in these games, because that's where the story culminates, a young boy who manages to touch the heart of a despondent god in search for hope. That's the story that seems to get lost for most people since its simple, basically just a result of a good kid living is life as normal, and people tend to focus on the not-so-good TR plot.

    Though, say what you will about how bad they were (which, I think actually plays to the part where they claim that they need Giovanni, thus being an example of Game Freak actually showing rather than just telling), at least the interactions did not seem like the "just passing through" interactions in RB. You first meet them because you want to help an old man and some Pokemon--something completely in-character for the boy who would one day touch the heart of Ho-Oh.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 26th August 2011 at 12:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    I prefer the "bigger" plots because they make the gameplay much more interesting.
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    Default Re: Do You Like Smaller or More Grandiose Plots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    I agree, but I would say that the continued focus on the League is an even bigger problem than the presence of the evil teams. Gyms shouldn't be removed altogether, but they need to become an optional sidequest. They've never been a challenge and we've come to a point where we shouldn't be forced to go through the same tired quest; any Pokémon game should have a variety of bosses, but why should they always take the form of people whose job is to test other trainers? In some regards playing Pokémon games is like never graduating from elementary school.
    Point taken, and I think I'll agree more. The reason to why I would rather want the evil team removed is because I associate that more with the plot than I ever did with the gyms. Why the concept of the pokémon league is the exact same in every region is beyond me, you'd think they could at least make it a bit more interesting. You don't need gym badges to prove that you're a good trainer. In addition, I don't feel you get the recognition you should deserve when rising to the rank of the region's best trainer. Seen from a spectator, you'd think that it would raise some attention... A petty problem, this is, compared to a lot others, but it just bugs me.

    A bigger problem with the current system of gyms and the league is that it distracts you from what would be considered the main plot. This makes at least me less interested in the main story, at least from personal experience. There's nothing wrong with a good side-quest or sub-plot, but it should add something useful or influence the world around you. What it does at the moment is that it drives on a linear story.


    Removing the gyms and the league to focus solely on mythology could be a very interesting twist, because I don't doubt that pokémon could dish up an interesting plot revolving legends if they only wanted to do that. It could lead to some problems when it comes to progression (I'm thinking mostly about level-wise), but it would be a fresh breath and a change to a series that I feel is locked into a pretty bad track. I guess it would be pretty problematic with parts of the fan-base, but the bigger question is; would it sell? As much as I would see that rather than a "regular" game, I have no illusions that it would be made if it wasn't going to sell.

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