Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes
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  1. #1

    Default Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    This is just a topic to discuss some changed to the meta-game/gameplay I've seen over the years. I've gone through some of the most recurring ones and wanted to hear opinions about them all in one place.

    Expanding The Amount of Moves Known:

    1) Universal Tackle Replacing Struggle
    One of the things I often hear suggested is making Tackle a universal move. That is, all Pokemon learn Tackle, get infinite PP for it, and can always use it. Often, this is just suggested to replace the clumsy Struggle feature of the games, to make Pokemon without offensive moves easier to raise. I think it would protect people from situations where they are locked into a conflict of infinitely Hardening Metapods - a situation so stupid that the anime made fun of it in the first 5 episodes.

    2) Universal Defend and Evade Commands
    A set of commands, like in a lot of console RPGs, that would give Pokemon a "Defend" that raised their defense sharply for one turn and/or an "Evade" that raised their evasion sharply for one turn. Presumably to buy stalling time for stallers or buy time for a quick switch-in attack. I don't really have much of an opinion on this, save that it is prolific in a lot of RPGs.

    3) Hidden Power
    Hidden Power is such a big part of competitive battling that it's almost annoying. Nearly all Pokemon can learn it, and it's often used as a band-aid for Pokemon with poor movesets.

    Now for the problem with it - it's a clumsy mechanic. You have to search and search for Pokemon with the right HP, there's no way to know ahead of time, and it just feels like busy work.

    3a) Hidden Power Tutor
    Most commonly, I hear people ask for a tutor in the game who can change a Pokemon's Hidden Power type in exchange for mushrooms or Heart Scales. Any thoughts? I don't think making the mechanic easier to use would necessarily affect the games negatively at all.

    3b) Universal Hidden Power
    I've also heard infrequent suggestions about making Hidden Power universal (as in, a move every Pokemon knows inherently) to just embrace it's complete ubiquitous.


    Held Items:

    1) Eviolite 2
    Eviolite has become one of the darlings of the fandom now that many unevolved Pokemon are viable. There has been some call for a counterpart hold item. That is, an item that boosts Sp. Attack and Attack by 50% if the Pokemon is unevolved. Basically, a Light Ball for everyone. Any thoughts on this?

    2) Hold-Item + Berry
    Gen V has a huge focus on hold items never before seen, with myriad effects. This is just my personal opinion, but I've often wondered if the game couldn't use the complexity for a Pokemon to be able to hold an equipment item and a berry at the same time, and making the item management a lot easier too. It's something interesting to think about.

    I'd be interested to see what people think of these ideas I hear discussed from time to time.
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  2. #2
    back to the start Arc Blader's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post

    Expanding The Amount of Moves Known:

    1) Universal Tackle Replacing Struggle
    One of the things I often hear suggested is making Tackle a universal move. That is, all Pokemon learn Tackle, get infinite PP for it, and can always use it. Often, this is just suggested to replace the clumsy Struggle feature of the games, to make Pokemon without offensive moves easier to raise. I think it would protect people from situations where they are locked into a conflict of infinitely Hardening Metapods - a situation so stupid that the anime made fun of it in the first 5 episodes.
    I suppose this is logical. I hate Struggle-offs as much as the next guy, and I wouldn't mind seeing the abolition of the move altogether
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    2) Universal Defend and Evade Commands
    A set of commands, like in a lot of console RPGs, that would give Pokemon a "Defend" that raised their defense sharply for one turn and/or an "Evade" that raised their evasion sharply for one turn. Presumably to buy stalling time for stallers or buy time for a quick switch-in attack. I don't really have much of an opinion on this, save that it is prolific in a lot of RPGs.
    Hmmm... not so big on the Defend option, but the Evade one seems like a good idea. I think it would work better than Defend because it would help Glass Cannons like Rampardos and Jynx more, and would be a bit harder for stallers to abuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    3) Hidden Power
    Hidden Power is such a big part of competitive battling that it's almost annoying. Nearly all Pokemon can learn it, and it's often used as a band-aid for Pokemon with poor movesets.

    Now for the problem with it - it's a clumsy mechanic. You have to search and search for Pokemon with the right HP, there's no way to know ahead of time, and it just feels like busy work.

    3a) Hidden Power Tutor
    Most commonly, I hear people ask for a tutor in the game who can change a Pokemon's Hidden Power type in exchange for mushrooms or Heart Scales. Any thoughts? I don't think making the mechanic easier to use would necessarily affect the games negatively at all.

    3b) Universal Hidden Power
    I've also heard infrequent suggestions about making Hidden Power universal (as in, a move every Pokemon knows inherently) to just embrace it's complete ubiquitous.
    This I like. Yes, Hidden Power is an important signifier of hidden data and whatnot, but in-game, it's far too random to be used effectively. Isn't that the point of a move? To actually be useful?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post

    Held Items:

    1) Eviolite 2
    Eviolite has become one of the darlings of the fandom now that many unevolved Pokemon are viable. There has been some call for a counterpart hold item. That is, an item that boosts Sp. Attack and Attack by 50% if the Pokemon is unevolved. Basically, a Light Ball for everyone. Any thoughts on this?
    This one actually seems like it might eventually happen. GameFreak typically seems to enjoy making counterparts to preexisting moves and items. Seems like a good idea, although it might have to accompany an increase in Light Ball's effectiveness (in order to keep it "special" :P)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    2) Hold-Item + Berry
    Gen V has a huge focus on hold items never before seen, with myriad effects. This is just my personal opinion, but I've often wondered if the game couldn't use the complexity for a Pokemon to be able to hold an equipment item and a berry at the same time, and making the item management a lot easier too. It's something interesting to think about.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this one. Berries are pretty different from other hold items, and are bordering on obsolete in the presence of perpetual healers lke Leftovers. I think this would certainly add a good deal of complexity to preparation, and could provide more assistance to underpowered Pokémon.

  3. #3
    ◓Gypsy Vanner Horse Kyuuketsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    I am against all of these ideas.

    Struggle is exactly what it sounds like: struggle. The Pokémon can't muster the strength to attack anymore, so they struggle to do so.

    Defend and Evade are probably one of the worst thing to be added. It could easily make the game too easy for anyone.

    Hidden Power is a move I never cared for, and since it does play an important part in the competitive field, the power to control what type it is could make it too easy. It should be hard to get what you want.

    The held items would too make it easy for everyone.

    And that is my main argument: It would be too easy. If we were to do everything the fandom wants, we would have Master Balls sold for 100, Legendary Pokémon available by the masses in the wild with an easy catch rate, all Pokémon will be part of an evolution family, and an item that makes everything you encounter shiny.

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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    I am not sure if Struggle should be changed to Tackle as a last-ditch move, because by doing so, the lack of recoil will make the battle drawn out. There's a reason the recoil is in place: some Pokemon can have a weak attack and not do much, which may be covered by Leftovers. Wobbuffet in Generation 3 is a great example, because in the case of Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet, the battle may not even end because of Leftovers stalling out on the other's defeat. That's not even mentioning that they cannot escape from each other, essentially making it unwinnable.

    Hidden Power's easier accessibility I agree, mainly because getting the right Hidden Power and desired nature can be quite a workout. As for Defend and Evade, I predict these commands will cause very defensive Pokemon who stalls to be harder to deal with, but if they are presented as moves that take up a slot, that will be a different story.

    Hold Item + Berry seems like a good idea too.

    You know, I thought that the most commonly suggested Metagame change is Type Chart change, for the sake of balancing. Of course, I may be wrong here.

    Thanks for reading.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    I am against all of these ideas.

    Struggle is exactly what it sounds like: struggle. The Pokémon can't muster the strength to attack anymore, so they struggle to do so.

    Defend and Evade are probably one of the worst thing to be added. It could easily make the game too easy for anyone.

    Hidden Power is a move I never cared for, and since it does play an important part in the competitive field, the power to control what type it is could make it too easy. It should be hard to get what you want.

    The held items would too make it easy for everyone.

    And that is my main argument: It would be too easy. If we were to do everything the fandom wants, we would have Master Balls sold for 100, Legendary Pokémon available by the masses in the wild with an easy catch rate, all Pokémon will be part of an evolution family, and an item that makes everything you encounter shiny.
    I'm not sure how it makes the game easier when your opponents - NPC or player, would be able to access all of this as well. In fact, the very nature of Pokemon ensures that global buffs to everyone cannot make the game easier as a whole.

    When you mean "easier", it feels to me like you're actually saying "Reduce grinding". Which are not the same things despite what you may think.
    You know, I thought that the most commonly suggested Metagame change is Type Chart change, for the sake of balancing. Of course, I may be wrong here.
    Yes, but that requires so much in-depth rebalancing I don't even think a forum topic could cover it.
    It should be hard to get what you want.
    Difficulty is not the same as "loads and loads of grinding". That is filler, or unnecessary padding to extend gameplay time.
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    ◓Gypsy Vanner Horse Kyuuketsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    What I meant by easier is easier to get the stuff you need to go into competitive playing. If Hidden Power plays such a decisive part, then it shouldn't be easy to acquire and change.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    What I meant by easier is easier to get the stuff you need to go into competitive playing. If Hidden Power plays such a decisive part, then it shouldn't be easy to acquire and change.
    If everyone needs it, the people who can't get it or don't have the patience to get it will simply abstain from competitive playing. Simple as that. I hope you're not arguing that more people playing competitively is a bad thing?
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    Based Mod Dan's Avatar Social Media EditorModerator
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    If everyone needs it, the people who can't get it or don't have the patience to get it will simply abstain from competitive playing. Simple as that. I hope you're not arguing that more people playing competitively is a bad thing?
    I'll argue that making it easier, while drawing in more people, would also push away fans. The ability to have a special move of any type you'd like would be absolutely broken. The whole idea of Hidden Power is that you need to work in order to draw it out. It takes effort to get the one you like because being able to freely choose an attack of whatever type you'd like is so significant that it has to be difficult.

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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    If tackle replaced struggle then say there are a steelix and scarmory with both a +def nature high def and hp IVs and max def and hp EVs and both are holding leftovers and there both the last pokemon of each trainer.

    It would be like Wobbafet VS Wobbafet(both with leftovers) in gen III no one would be K.Oed until a trainer gave up.

    Also then rock,ghost and steel type wall would be a bit broke and proably Evo stone Duskclops would be the worst as it has pressure,huge def and could just keep resting and resting until the foe's pokemon is out of PP and then just poison/burn it and let it die while it rests of any HP left in the end and start all over again until it dies from rests PP running out or is K.Oed by a strong attack. Steel and Rock walls would just have to stall util the foe is out of PP and then just heal any danmage from tackle and kill the foe and it would be very hard to K.O any of them with instant recovering move(such as roost,recover and so on)

    I think struggle is much better as it makes sure that some one can win.

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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    Regarding your thoughts on Hidden Power... you can also make an argument that IVs ought to be standardized or made easier to obtain somehow, since you need to "search and search" for Pokemon with the best IVs.

    However, a lot of competitive players get the best Hidden Power the same way they get the best IVs: RNG abuse.

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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta View Post
    2) Universal Defend and Evade Commands
    A set of commands, like in a lot of console RPGs, that would give Pokemon a "Defend" that raised their defense sharply for one turn and/or an "Evade" that raised their evasion sharply for one turn. Presumably to buy stalling time for stallers or buy time for a quick switch-in attack. I don't really have much of an opinion on this, save that it is prolific in a lot of RPGs.
    Just no.

    That's reserved for the anime, I would not like battling if this was possible. Giving a random boost to a Pokemon is fucking absurd. Here Blissey, have some extra Special Defense or something.

    -_-
    3) Hidden Power
    Hidden Power is such a big part of competitive battling that it's almost annoying. Nearly all Pokemon can learn it, and it's often used as a band-aid for Pokemon with poor movesets.

    Now for the problem with it - it's a clumsy mechanic. You have to search and search for Pokemon with the right HP, there's no way to know ahead of time, and it just feels like busy work.

    3a) Hidden Power Tutor
    Most commonly, I hear people ask for a tutor in the game who can change a Pokemon's Hidden Power type in exchange for mushrooms or Heart Scales. Any thoughts? I don't think making the mechanic easier to use would necessarily affect the games negatively at all.

    3b) Universal Hidden Power
    I've also heard infrequent suggestions about making Hidden Power universal (as in, a move every Pokemon knows inherently) to just embrace it's complete ubiquitous.
    That actually doesn't sound that bad.


    Held Items:

    1) Eviolite 2
    Eviolite has become one of the darlings of the fandom now that many unevolved Pokemon are viable. There has been some call for a counterpart hold item. That is, an item that boosts Sp. Attack and Attack by 50% if the Pokemon is unevolved. Basically, a Light Ball for everyone. Any thoughts on this?
    Eh it could work I guess. It would probably make Baton Passing more popular.
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    I'm going to have to disagree with all of these ideas.

    - A Universal Tackle replacing Struggle? I'm not a fan of that. How many players actually get down to Struggle anyway?
    - Defend and Evade? The battling formula has been the same in 15 years (with slight changes, like Steel and Dark, Physical/Special split). If it's not broken, don't fix it.
    - Hold Item + Berry. No! Can you imagine how evil a Choice Scarf + Wacan Berry Kyogre would be?

    The only ideas I had to think about:
    - Hidden Power. I admit, the reason I don't use HP is because it's a pain to get. As Hidden Power is calculated by IVs; then surely the only way to change it would be to seperate the depency on IVs in deciding it's original type or changing the Pokémon's IVs? I can see both of those ideas being unpopular. With the former, that would mean trained Pokémon sent to newer games would have the type changed, which could render it useless until you can meet the requirements to change it. The latter would have more devastating results competetive players. Besides, it's called "Hidden Power" for a reason.

    - Eviolite 2. I think the only reason GF got away with making the original Eviolite is because it increased the defences; there are only so many Pokémon that can do with only good defences. However, attack stats are needed for almost all Pokémon.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    1) Universal Tackle Replacing Struggle
    the only thing i'd change about struggle is not having to use it after you select "Fight" i mean seriously that p's me off but other than that i think it does it's job well enough

    2) Universal Defend and Evade Commands
    protect works well enough for defending stallers & that's one of the downsides of using tanks (deciding whether to use a move slot for protect) but hey that's life - same for evading (just use protect)

    3) Hidden Power
    imo there should be someone in the games that can tell you IV's & HP type near the daycare (after the E4 obviously) rather than adjusting the mechanics - that way you could work at getting the IV's you want & be rewarded for your patience rather than getting frustrated

    (an EV checker would be nice too)
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    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    Stealth Rock stays up only for a certain amount of turns, a certain amount of switch-ins, or is otherwise more easily disposed of than just Rapid Spin.

    I'm glad they indirectly nerfed the amount of pokemon with access to the move this generation, but I would've liked it if they went a little farther.
    Oh?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Commonly Suggested Meta-Game Changes

    2) Universal Defend and Evade Commands
    A set of commands, like in a lot of console RPGs, that would give Pokemon a "Defend" that raised their defense sharply for one turn and/or an "Evade" that raised their evasion sharply for one turn. Presumably to buy stalling time for stallers or buy time for a quick switch-in attack. I don't really have much of an opinion on this, save that it is prolific in a lot of RPGs.
    A lot of these other RPGS don't have PP for every move though. This would be broken in the Pokemon games.

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