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  1. #406
    Registered User Purellian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaphlare View Post
    Anyone know why giovanni is aloud to compete he kinda tried to overthrow a nation.
    Not really, all he tried to do with Team Rocket was to make a profit by using Pokemon.

    Anyway, my theory on the Tournament is that it's a non-canon opportunity to have a super awesome epic tournament with everyone who's ever been a Gym Leader or Champion, ever. Notice that we have both Giovanni as the Viridian GL and Blue as the Kanto Champion as in Gen I, but also Janine as the Fuchsia GL and Lance as the Johto Champion as in Gen II. If this were canon, then we couldn't have both pairs going on at the same time. If Lance is the Champion, then Blue should be the Viridian GL, and Giovanni should be not included, yet he is, and as the Viridian GL. I honestly think it's just a chance to have a grand ol' tourney with everyone who was ever an important trainer in the past games.
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  2. #407
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaphlare View Post
    Still find it fucked up that a guy who had a full diverse team with a Gigalith and Haxorus to suddenly have a Patrat. Also look at his rematch quotes.

    Straight from bulbapedia


    After first move
    "I know all my strengths and weaknesses now. Soon, I will also know all yours!"
    Sending out last Pokémon
    "It's not over yet. My Pokémon are with me!"
    Last Pokémon on low health
    "I believe in my Pokémon's strength, so I don't lose my calm."
    After defeat
    "Thank you! I saw what was missing in me."

    I never interrupted the ending as Cheren not being obsessed with power I saw it as him trying to find a purpose and being a little more chill about it. Hell the first time you fight him in victory road his goal was still to become champion and this was encourage by Marshall.
    You're using Cheren's battle lines >_>

    His character development is better portrayed with his other lines, particularly his line right before he heads to Victory Road.

    From: http://vgboy.dabomstew.com/other/BlackAndWhite.txt

    << Oh right, but on Route 5 >>
    Cheren: ...Strength was the sole value of my existence. When I met Alder here, of that I was convinced. ...But winning in Pokémon battles isn't everything. Ever since I've been shown that, I've seen so much more. In a way, everyone is strong... People and Pokémon possess their own unique strengths. Strength to make dreams come true, strength to protect things... I've come to think that because of you, White. Thanks to you and Bianca... and Alder, and all the rest. ...It would have been nice if N could have seen the same thing. I'm going to take a look at myself on Victory Road. What can I accomplish, and what should I become...? If you want, you can come too. I'd like to have Pokémon battles with you.
    Sorry, but you can't possibly have "never interrupted the ending as Cheren not being obsessed with power" (the double negatives are confusing, but I'm assuming you're saying Cheren's obsessed with power)


    You also said that the first time you fight him i Victory Road, his goal was to become Champion and was encouraged by Marshall (Marshall being there indicates this is the post-game battle). We can see from the lines preceding this encounter that this was not the case. You've given us his lines in the battle. Here's the lines surrounding it:

    << At the top of Victory Road >>
    Cheren: ...White. It's difficult... confronting myself. I keep noticing parts of myself I dislike, or even hate.
    ???: That's right. And no one can ever run from their true self.
    (Marshal comes in.)
    Cheren: ...Marshal?
    Marshal: My master told me about this, so I came to see. Do you understand? Even if you lose in battle... As long as you surpass your past self, you've still achieved a victory over yourself. So for that purpose, through battle, we see opponents! We see Pokémon! And we see ourselves!
    Cheren: ...I suppose that's a line you're passing down from Alder?
    Marshal: ...Well, yeah. What I want is to fight a Trainer who sees themselves that way... In associating with such a Trainer, I know I and my Pokémon would get even stronger... Well, I'll be awaiting your challenges at the Pokémon League! Cheren: ...Well then. Okay, White! Show me a Pokémon battle!

    [Battle lines that you've already quoted]

    Cheren: ...Fighting with so many Trainers and Pokémon... Once you establish what you are, a straightforward road materializes. And that road exists so that I can be myself. You and I both have Pokémon who are there for us. And our precious Pokémon walk these roads alongside us...
    Again, nothing here suggests obsession with power, and nothing about him wanting to become Champion. Marshall simply telling him that he awaits his challenge is simply him saying "when you understand these words, come see me" not saying "go be Champion". There's also no lines from Cheren indicating this was still his goal. And for all you know, Cheren was at some point the Champion but chose to be a gym leader so he would have more chances battling trainers. Blue, after all, was a Champion-turned-Gym leader, as was Wallace apparently. Cheren was one battle away from becoming Champion himself.

    Given Marshall's lines:

    "So for that purpose, through battle, we see opponents! We see Pokémon! And we see ourselves!What I want is to fight a Trainer who sees themselves that way... In associating with such a Trainer, I know I and my Pokémon would get even stronger..."

    It makes perfect sense why he'd become a gym leader. The only thing that doesn't make sense, as you said, is why he's a normal-type specialist. But other than that, nothing else you claim is out of character unless you ignore his entire character development.

  3. #408
    Allons-y! PKMN Trainer Faye's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaphlare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    A lot can happen in 2 years. D: It's not too unreasonable for Cheren to change his mind.
    True but to suddenly become a specialist and not use his beloved team anymore feels weird
    The first time you battle a Gym Leader, they don't use their full real team, as leader rematches in Pt show us. I'm sure Cheren's team is still around, he just can't use them against new trainers.

    Plus, there are three possible teams he could have, depending on H/H's starter in BW. We can avoid having to cut branches if we never see his full team.
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  4. #409
    Crimson Fighter Phoenixphlare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    @The OutrageOkay Okay I guess I just forgot or fucked it up in my head because him being a gym leader felt weird to me. I tried to remember what happened so I looked and bulbapedia and jumped to conclusions
    Last edited by Phoenixphlare; 12th May 2012 at 01:40 PM.

  5. #410
    THE Pokemon Master TheMonster6893's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    I think people are thinking about the whole tournament thing a little too much. To me it seemed more like an alumni tournament where anyone who was at one point or still is either a gl or E4 member can compete. Even if the tournament isn't canon anyway.

  6. #411
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    @TheMonster6893;

    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the facility as non-canon given that Akuroma was shown there in a trailer.

  7. #412
    THE Pokemon Master TheMonster6893's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    @The Outrage;

    I didn't mean that I thought that it wasn't canon, I just meant that in either case the tournament was more of an alumni thing, rather than who's currently in place as gl and E4 members

    Edit: the whole idea is still pretty cool though. I'm glad they finally did something like this with gl's and E4

  8. #413
    Jun
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    We can explain both Giovanni & Blue at the same time. Blue became the Kanto League Champion, Giovanni came back to his gym, a league opened in Johto with Lance.
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  9. #414
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    @Jun;

    The only thing I don't like about that theory is that it's making too much of an assumption with too little information (right now anyway).

    If anything, @TheMonster6893's explanation is the cleanest with regards to fixing up this continuity snarl. Besides, Akuroma is seen in the facility, and he's supposed to be studying Pokémon strengths (seems like we forgot this amongst all the 'Akuroma is evil' debacle) so it makes sense that he'd invite anyone who has previously held a high-ranking league position (e.g., Gym leader, Elite 4, Champion)

  10. #415
    Prince of Renais FinalArcadia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    If not every gym leader makes a reappearance, I wonder what they used to base their choices on? Who seems most popular, I guess? I'm really hoping to see Morty and Falkner show up again...

  11. #416
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    They have to make new sprites for characters that haven't appeared in HGSS and DPPT, right? Then I wonder why they didn't update everyone else.

  12. #417
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    If Morty shows up, then I will actually care about this world tournament.

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  13. #418
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Somari View Post
    They have to make new sprites for characters that haven't appeared in HGSS and DPPT, right? Then I wonder why they didn't update everyone else.
    There's a difference between creating new sprites based on old designs like they'd do for RSE trainers, then there's having to redesign and make new sprites. If Steven is any indication, they are simply making new sprites (you can see him on the page) which is much easier. Their previous designs are also more iconic.

    As for why they didn't "update" everyone else, its because there's nothing to update. The sprites are the correct size.

  14. #419
    PDL
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    What I find a bit strange is that they are using the exact same sprites despite these games taking place at least a decade afterward.

    Something just occurred to me though. Perhaps you really aren't fighting these gym leaders and champions themselves, but AIs and holograms of them. "Simulations" so to speak. It might be crazy, but the Pokémon World does have access to this kind of technology.
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  15. #420
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Black & White 2 Character Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PDL View Post
    Something just occurred to me though. Perhaps you really aren't fighting these gym leaders and champions themselves, but AIs and holograms of them. "Simulations" so to speak. It might be crazy, but the Pokémon World does have access to this kind of technology.
    I was literally about to post something like this just now lol.

    Except I was thinking more along the lines of the Final Fantasy XIII-2 DLC Coliseum Battles, if anyone is familiar with those. The world tournament isn't DLC so just ignore that part. In some of the battles, you get to battle some of the characters from XIII. It's not really the character themselves, but rather their essence that you are battling, and it doesn't affect canon at all.

    So I thought maybe this world tournament thing is sort of like that, and there is no canon involved. The only doubt I have is that Akuroma shows up at this facility, so this facility might not be able to be canon-free, if you will.
    Last edited by smalllady; 12th May 2012 at 09:40 PM.

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