Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

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Thread: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

  1. #1
    (-, - )…zzzZZZ Reila's Avatar
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    Default Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    I always wondered if he is a Bug-type specialist, since he have three Bug-Type in his team.
    After the B2W2 release, I think it is even more likely now.

    The reason for this is within the spoiler, for those who did not play the new games yet:


    Also, Steven was Steel Type specialist, but he had only three Steel Pokémon in his team. One can argue that he is not, since the only Bug in his PWT team is Volcarona, but we don't know for sure if the feature is canon.

    Well, the main reason I am creating this thread is because there are people who don't agree with Alder being a Bug Master and I want to see other people opinions about this subject.
    So, what you think??

  2. #2
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    From a game mechanics perspective, there are obviously limitations to what can be considered canon in the Pokemon World Tournament. For instance, your ability to challenge it at any time and multiple times a day would fall under game mechanic limitations. The randomized genders of Pokemon who should have set genders (i.e., Red's Pokemon) is an oversight seemingly carried from how these Battle Facilities (like the battle subway) is programmed, as well as the level-cap, is obviously another game mechanic limitation to canon.

    However, the Pokemon World Tournament has been referenced outside of the facility by Cynthia in BW (much like how the Battle Castles in Johto and Sinnoh both exist in canon due to Caitlin's mention of them), and evidently by other PC's who participate outside of the tournament itself would mean it is canon, and thus there is no reason to assume the teams they use aren't canon either (apart from gender as mentioned above). Furthermore, from in-story events, we know the PWT is held once a year, but for obvious gameplay reasons, you can challenge it at any time. It does not mean that the tournament itself isn't real.

    Now onto the topic in question, the PWT clearly had no problem having type specialist Champions, and Iris isn't the first "type specialist" to only have half her team consisting of the type she specializes in. She is preceded by both Lance and Steven in that regard. However, the common factors between Iris, Lance, and Steven is that their non-type specialized members all have a common theme to them. Both Lance and Iris use Pokemon whose designs were influenced by dragons (and in Iris' case, dinosaurs) even if they are not typed that way. Steven, as a rock collector, has Pokemon who are themed either from rare stones and stone relics (Metagross, his fossil Pokemon, Claydol) or Pokemon that help him excavate rare stones (Excadrill; Aggron, who can supposedly chew through rock). Alder's PWT team seems to reference more of the fact of how the Elite 4 respects him and how he respects them back, seemingly moreso than other Champions. He is the only one who actually seems to have a casual relation with them.

    Alder's non-bug Pokemon fail to hold a common theme between them. Indeed, the only common theme is with the two other bugs he uses. Both Escavalier and Accelgor are thematically related to one another, which explains their co-occurrence in his team. I'd say it is a mere coincidence that he uses three bug types. Unlike other specialists, his affinity for bug types is not referenced anywhere else.

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    maglev maglev's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    I consider Alder as trainer that emphasises bug Pokemon but doesn't focus on them. I think that if he had 4 bug type Pokemon then he would be a bug type specialist, instead of only half the team being bug.
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    (-, - )…zzzZZZ Reila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    However, the Pokemon World Tournament has been referenced outside of the facility by Cynthia in BW
    However, this happened in the post game and can be seen as non-canon, if it contradicts some happening in the main game of any of the games (And it does). I have not much to say about this canon or non-canon subject, but there are some evidences that points to it not being canon and one of these is the fact that the none of the characters aged/changed clothes in more than 5 years. Also, Giovanni's presence on the PWT is very weird.

    Anyway, you have a point about Steven's team, but... about Lance's team: Different from Iris' case, he used other types in his team because in GSC times, there weren't six fully evolved Dragon Types and his team would be boring and repetitive with 6 Dragonite and/or Dragonair. Also, he could have used Kingdra, but he didn't, even though the Pokémon is a Dragon Type. In Alder's case, I have a feeling that he did not have a team of 6 Bug-Types because: First, the type was never really popular with the fandom and a lot of people would groan about Alder being "so easy to beat" if he had 6 Bug Pokémon; So the reason for him having Bouffalant and the others was to balance his team (And different from Iris' case, there isn't bug-looking non-Bug type Pokémon in Unova to put in his it instead of Bouffalant/Druddigon/Vanilluxe. Dinosaur-looking Pokémon fits with her Dragon-Types, but what would fit with Alder's bugs?). Second, there were other Bug-Type specialist in Unova and it would be redundant to have two self-called specialists in the same game (That also explains why Iris did have three non-Dragon-Types in her team). Also, even though his 3 non-bug type Pokémon share no traits, the only really random is Vanilluxe. Both Bouffalant and Druddigon fits the character in some way.

    But yes, there were no mentions about he being a specialist in a specific type (in Black & White, at least).

    Alder being a master in the Bug-Type isn't an impossible hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobdylan View Post
    I consider Alder as trainer that emphasises bug Pokemon but doesn't focus on them. I think that if he had 4 bug type Pokemon then he would be a bug type specialist, instead of only half the team being bug.
    Yeah, maybe he just have a huge preference for Bug-Type Pokemon, but prefer not to use only them.

    Just like me.

  5. #5
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garulu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
    However, the Pokemon World Tournament has been referenced outside of the facility by Cynthia in BW
    However, this happened in the post game and can be seen as non-canon, if it contradicts some happening in the main game of any of the games (And it does). I have not much to say about this canon or non-canon subject, but there are some evidences that points to it not being canon and one of these is the fact that the none of the characters aged/changed clothes in more than 5 years. Also, Giovanni's presence on the PWT is very weird.
    And I've given a comprehensive argument each and every time these "non-aged" sprites are brought up. Here's the points in brief:

    1. The Pokemon World Tournament is first, and foremost, Game Freak's attempt to pander to its base, hence why all these cameos appear

    2. Since all these cameos are to appear, it is logical to use their most recognizable design. Note how drastic some changes in designs are (e.g., Sabrina, Morty, Red) in the remakes. Sabrina also participates in Pokéwood, in which her sprite did get a redesign for her role, and her identity was debated. Therefore, the use of new sprites would undermine the true purpose of the PWT in terms of gameplay purposes despite not making sense in-story. Again, this is simply one of those gameplay and story segregation things we must accept and move on.

    3. Cynthia and Looker have both had canon appearances outside the games with unchanged sprites, thus, it is evident that Game Freak would prefer recognizability over overhauling a design for minor appearances (note: Caitlin's role as the Elite 4 member gives her a much larger role than Cynthia)

    4. The World Tournament is referenced in the story, plays a purpose in the story, and members who participate cameo outside of it, and thus the institution of the Pokemon World Tournament exists in-canon, and there is no reason to believe the teams the NPC's have are not Pokemon they own (i.e., these teams do not contradict canon) anymore than there is no reason to believe rematch teams are non-canon, regardless of Game Freak's choice to not update the sprites. Unless there is a contradiction in using these Pokemon one cannot dismiss that these gym leaders and Champions own them (other than the gender oversight). You can only go so far as to say their physical appearance is non-canon, as Cynthia has already referenced in-story that this World Tournament will invite Champions from around the world (and evidently Gym leaders too) to compete once a year--a statement that does not contradict existing canon either.

    There are no other inconsistencies evident, and if you're going to claim there is, then provide the examples. Anyone can say "something is wrong" but that statement is ultimately meaningless unless there is something to back it up. It is canon as well that the World Tournament is inviting former Champions. Steven and Wallace both enter, with Steven referenced as former Hoenn Champion, and Wallace being the active one. Giovanni has also managed to hold a seat as gym leader in the Kanto League, and not just gym leader, the gym leader in the city right beside the Pokemon League HQ. I don't see why its suddenly so weird he'd be able to reclaim his position in the first place, especially since he didn't actually go with the new Team Rocket.
    Alder being a master in the Bug-Type isn't an impossible hypothesis.
    It's not an impossible hypothesis, but there is a very clear distinction between "not an impossible hypothesis" and a hypothesis backed up with evidence.

    Going back to the PWT, regardless of its canon, I would like to note the instances in which there were Pokémon substitutions in their teams. Note that when substitutions were made for Lance, it was to (finally) bring his team up to the generic "dragon specialist" team. However, when Steven had his Skarmory replaced, it was replaced by another Steel type, and his Claydol was replaced by a fossil, thus maintaining the overall theme. However, for Alder, both his bugs were replaced, but they were not replaced by equivalent Pokemon (i.e., more bugs).

    The claim that Game Freak avoided giving him an all-bug team so he's not easy is unfounded. If we were to assume they were replacing the bugs, there are many bug Pokemon now that are or have been top-tier, and Game Freak has had no problem making Aaron, a bug specialist, an Elite 4 member.

    Finally, you say it is redundant to have two bug type specialists in the game, but both Iris and Drayden openly specialize in dragon types in BW2, while Alder makes no mention of his bug specialty. Second, given Alder's reduced role in BW2, being open about his bug specialty would not affect much given that he is post-game material, yet his bug speciality, as far as we know, is still unmentioned.

    Both Bouffalant and Druddigon fits the character in some way.
    So you say they "fit in some way", so I ask, how so? I'm not a mind reader, so you'll need to explain this claim. Even Flint's non-fire Pokemon had very obvious fire themes--Steelix's armor is tempered by the Earth's heat, Drifloon is a hot hair balloon, and Lopunny is the odd one out but somehow gets away with using a fire move, but yet its fluffy fur could reference his hair. What's the relation between Bouffalant and Druddigon that fits the character "in some way"? Finally, if this relation exists, then surely it extends to both Braviary and Conkeldurr as well given that they replaced Drudiggon and Vanilluxe.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 5th July 2012 at 10:07 PM.

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    Marukaite Chikyuu~ ShinySceptile1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    I do think that he somewhat likes/focuses on Bugs, and that was pretty undeniable logic there, even though Alder never said anything about Bugs... Or it is all just a coincidence. I personally think he likes Bug a bit more than other types.
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    I thought it was meant to show his love for the bugs in all honesty. At least that is the theme they tried to throw at you.

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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    But the games never specify that Alder is a Bug type specialist - whenever there is a trainer who specializes in a certain type, the games always state them in one or way or another.

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    My Sword Hand Twitches! Owain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    I actually think he can be considered a Bug-Type specialist, even if he uses the type on only half of his team, and with his other Pokémon not sharinga theme, since I'm pretty sure Alder has something of an author avatar for Satoshi Tajiri, Pokémon's creator, somewhere, and he was a bug-collector when he was tyke, I think it is a pretty cool fact actually, more people should realise the Bug-Type's awesomeness!
    Reila likes this.

  10. #10
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    You can't really be an author avatar when you weren't involved with the game's creation apart from approving designs. And that whole "author avatar" thing seems to have no other basis to it other than people saying Alder's a bug specialist. In essence, this is circular logic: Alder's a bug specialist because he's Tajiri's author avatar, and he's Tajiri's author avatar because he's a bug specialist. Give me more concrete evidence that he is other than speculation (such as an interview) or a more well structured argument.

    Besides, Tajiri's favourite Pokemon was Poliwhirl. It would make sense for Alder to have at least been given one on his ranch if they're trying to make a shout-out to him.

  11. #11
    (-, - )…zzzZZZ Reila's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgo Asmita. View Post
    I actually think he can be considered a Bug-Type specialist, even if he uses the type on only half of his team, and with his other Pokémon not sharing a theme
    I agree. He obviously have three bugs in his team for some reason. It is not a coincidence and they didn't put the three strongest Bug-Types of Unova in his team just for the lulz.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShinySeviper1 View Post
    I do think that he somewhat likes/focuses on Bugs, and that was pretty undeniable logic there, even though Alder never said anything about Bugs... Or it is all just a coincidence. I personally think he likes Bug a bit more than other types.
    I don't think there is such thing as coincidence in video-games...

    Quote Originally Posted by GallifreyanGallade View Post
    But the games never specify that Alder is a Bug type specialist - whenever there is a trainer who specializes in a certain type, the games always state them in one or way or another.
    Yes, and this is the exactly reason I created this thread... If there were some confirmation about his specialist, this thread would be very pointless.

  12. #12
    Marukaite Chikyuu~ ShinySceptile1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alder: A Bug-Type Specialist?

    True.... I guess, like you said, he has three bugs for a reason. ^^
    Reila likes this.
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