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Thread: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

  1. #76

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post
    It's mental abuse, so it won't stand out. You have to look at things carefully. The signs are pretty subtle, so it's easy to miss them.

    Here are a few examples:

    You'll notice there's a train in the basketball hoop and a dart in the art panel. This probably means he doesn't know how to play with them. N was never taught how to play with toys, and he doesn't know the proper use. With all those people at his service - his sisters, the sages, the grunts, even Ghetsis - not a single person taught him how to play with toys. He was neglected and had no communication between humans.

    You can pick up a Rare Candy in there. It's not just some rare item lying anywhere - it has a special meaning. With a Rare Candy, you level up a pokemon, but the EVs remain unchanged. N is still a child at heart, and mentally a child - only his body grew up. Also, he's been given new toys to play with even as an adult - and there are signs of having played with recently. He wasn't given the right environmental stimulation to grow mentally - he was confined to that room for a long time, unaware of what was actually going in the world.

    Remember that N was only given hurt pokemon for friends. In other words, he didn't have any human friends. Like I said, with all the people at his service, not a single person was his human friend.
    Interpretation is not a great source of evidence because you can interpret it to mean almost anything you want.

    For example:

    Maybe N got bored and started using them inappropriately. Maybe his Pokemon were fooling around with his toys. Maybe somebody came in his room while he was away. (Also, you're trying to tell me that nobody told him how to use any of this stuff? Not even the goddess? They taught him about numerous amount of things, but not how trains work.)

    Maybe the Rare Candy was in there cause he or his Pokemon, I don't know, likes to eat candy *shrugs*. (Seriously, you're really stretching.)

    Maybe. I thought those two ladies were his friends but again, I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion-Sama View Post
    The way Ghetsis acts and the way he's presented strikes me as the kind of person that won't stop until he owns everything. He doesn't needs to pull off the same plan. He would use persuasion once he seizes Unova's control and force people to fight for him if he so desired. It's what he did with N and his entire Team.

    And yes, nothing of that is said. I am just making educated guesses. If it's not mentioned or drawn attention to, it means it didn't happen or occurrences were sporadic or silenced. It doesn't say anywhere that Cyrus didn't mistreat his underlings, but it doesn't say anywhere that he did, either. Conversely, with Ghetsis there's clear signs of the psychological abuse he inflicted on N and his persuasive ways. The way he acts enraged when N and Colress two years later have failed also denotes he didn't tolerate failure. Cyrus either didn't care or never made big out of it. However, if it's not mentioned, it could have happened or not, so I am just making educated guesses in the emphasis given.

    As for the painless thing, tell me if you know what happens if you're erased from existence. Time and space are abstract concepts. That is merely my interpretation of how being erased from the continuum would feel like. I have no way to know, but the way it appears to me, it sounds painless. I am here, and suddenly I am not here anymore. Is it painful? Hell if I know. I interpret it is not. That's how I see such concepts.

    I never claimed anything of what I said was canon, either. I just made my own interpretations of both characters and analyzed them in a deeper light so my own concept of evilness can elucidate who was more evil. It's the same way you say Cyrus is more evil only because his scheme affects more people. For me that's a too basic interpretation and not at all compliant with how I, myself, interpret degrees of evilness in my mind. This is an opinion thread too, so yeah. This is my own opinion and analysis. Whether the game said it out loud or not is irrelevant. What it did say, I interpreted with my own perceptions, and hence my post. It doesn't make it canon or anything. A story, let alone a game, doesn't have to give us every single detail in a silver platter.
    Don't use educated guesses as examples. It doesn't help your arguments cause anybody can do the same thing to refute your claims. I won't because it'll just be my educated guesses against yours and that'll just go around in a circle.

    I don't claim to know what pain a person is in when a dragon that controls time, space, or dimensions destroys the universe but you don't either. You can claim that's painless but it's really a baseless claim, and I don't think even Cyrus knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pikachu View Post
    After looking through all these posts, I just have one thing to say. While looking at all the arguments, most of them disagree on the meaning of evil. So I ask you guys then, what is your definition of evil?
    When someone purposely goes out of their way to cause harm to others, directly or indirectly, against their wishes.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
    From: POKéMON RESEARCH TEAM.
    That couldn't have ended well.

  2. #77
    Hyping over Steven Stone Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Interpretation is not a great source of evidence because you can interpret it to mean almost anything you want.

    For example:

    Maybe N got bored and started using them inappropriately. Maybe his Pokemon were fooling around with his toys. Maybe somebody came in his room while he was away. (Also, you're trying to tell me that nobody told him how to use any of this stuff? Not even the goddess? They taught him about numerous amount of things, but not how trains work.)

    Maybe the Rare Candy was in there cause he or his Pokemon, I don't know, likes to eat candy *shrugs*. (Seriously, you're really stretching.)

    Maybe. I thought those two ladies were his friends but again, I don't know.
    Okay. I agree you're right that meanings can be interpreted in any way the player wishes to view.

    HOWEVER, N doesn't seem like the person to use toys/tools inappropriately just because he's bored. Also, remember he was given hurt and abused pokemons - I doubt they'd be happy enough to fool around with toys when there's a skateboarding rack that's been clawed. Also, N was supposedly raised by Ghetsis to be the King of Team Plasma - I doubt Ghetsis would allow anyone 'lowly' to interact with N... and Ghetsis certainly doesn't seem like the kind of person to teach N how to play basketball....

    The goddess were caretakers of N - NOT his friends. They're more like sitters. And looking at how Ghetsis raised N, it's possible their actions were restricted. Concordia mentions that they offer peace and comfort to N... but I don't think that would mean in a friendly sense. N was locked up in that room for years with abused pokemon, and that doesn't sound like anything joyous. The goddesses probably nursed N in case a pokemon hurt him, and comforted him in case he came crying to them.


    About N's past, here's a quote from them:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthea
    Trainers battle to practice their skills and to grow in experience, but never to hurt their Pokémon. My lord N has realized this, deep down in his heart...but he has spent too much painful time here in this castle to admit it...
    Note that she said N spent too much painful time in the castle. Sure, meanings can be interpreted in any way, but what Anthea said certainly indicates that N wasn't living a happy life as a kid.

  3. #78

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post

    Okay. I agree you're right that meanings can be interpreted in any way the player wishes to view.

    HOWEVER, N doesn't seem like the person to use toys/tools inappropriately just because he's bored. Also, remember he was given hurt and abused pokemons - I doubt they'd be happy enough to fool around with toys when there's a skateboarding rack that's been clawed. Also, N was supposedly raised by Ghetsis to be the King of Team Plasma - I doubt Ghetsis would allow anyone 'lowly' to interact with N... and Ghetsis certainly doesn't seem like the kind of person to teach N how to play basketball....

    The goddess were caretakers of N - NOT his friends. They're more like sitters. And looking at how Ghetsis raised N, it's possible their actions were restricted. Concordia mentions that they offer peace and comfort to N... but I don't think that would mean in a friendly sense. N was locked up in that room for years with abused pokemon, and that doesn't sound like anything joyous. The goddesses probably nursed N in case a pokemon hurt him, and comforted him in case he came crying to them.


    About N's past, here's a quote from them:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthea
    Trainers battle to practice their skills and to grow in experience, but never to hurt their Pokémon. My lord N has realized this, deep down in his heart...but he has spent too much painful time here in this castle to admit it...
    Note that she said N spent too much painful time in the castle. Sure, meanings can be interpreted in any way, but what Anthea said certainly indicates that N wasn't living a happy life as a kid.
    Okay, again your interpretation is not valid. Especially not here because I have an opposite interpretation of it all.

    You think N wouldn't play with his toys that way, I think he would, least he might have a child. Just cause Pokemon are abused doesn't mean they'd never be curious or play around, real life people and animals recover from abuse after all. Also, he did have a Zorua and a Darmanitan that he brought with him from the wild that probably weren't abused, so at the very least it could have been them.

    You think sitters can't be friends. Well, with my experience with baby sitters I think that they can, and be life long friends as well.

    And yes it wasn't a happy childhood, I already conceded that point. I'm saying I don't know what happened and neither does anyone else.

    But again, this getting away from the topic of this thread and it's kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things cause no amount of pain that a person inflicts on one person can equal the devastation of destroying the entire universe.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
    From: POKéMON RESEARCH TEAM.
    That couldn't have ended well.

  4. #79
    Hyping over Steven Stone Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post

    Okay. I agree you're right that meanings can be interpreted in any way the player wishes to view.

    HOWEVER, N doesn't seem like the person to use toys/tools inappropriately just because he's bored. Also, remember he was given hurt and abused pokemons - I doubt they'd be happy enough to fool around with toys when there's a skateboarding rack that's been clawed. Also, N was supposedly raised by Ghetsis to be the King of Team Plasma - I doubt Ghetsis would allow anyone 'lowly' to interact with N... and Ghetsis certainly doesn't seem like the kind of person to teach N how to play basketball....

    The goddess were caretakers of N - NOT his friends. They're more like sitters. And looking at how Ghetsis raised N, it's possible their actions were restricted. Concordia mentions that they offer peace and comfort to N... but I don't think that would mean in a friendly sense. N was locked up in that room for years with abused pokemon, and that doesn't sound like anything joyous. The goddesses probably nursed N in case a pokemon hurt him, and comforted him in case he came crying to them.


    About N's past, here's a quote from them:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthea
    Trainers battle to practice their skills and to grow in experience, but never to hurt their Pokémon. My lord N has realized this, deep down in his heart...but he has spent too much painful time here in this castle to admit it...
    Note that she said N spent too much painful time in the castle. Sure, meanings can be interpreted in any way, but what Anthea said certainly indicates that N wasn't living a happy life as a kid.
    Okay, again your interpretation is not valid. Especially not here because I have an opposite interpretation of it all.

    You think N wouldn't play with his toys that way, I think he would, least he might have a child. Just cause Pokemon are abused doesn't mean they'd never be curious or play around, real life people and animals recover from abuse after all. Also, he did have a Zorua and a Darmanitan that he brought with him from the wild that probably weren't abused, so at the very least it could have been them.

    You think sitters can't be friends. Well, with my experience with baby sitters I think that they can, and be life long friends as well.

    And yes it wasn't a happy childhood, I already conceded that point. I'm saying I don't know what happened and neither does anyone else.

    But again, this getting away from the topic of this thread and it's kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things cause no amount of pain that a person inflicts on one person can equal the devastation of destroying the entire universe.
    The point still stands that what Ghetsis did to N was horrible and inhumane and that's more than enough to be called evil.

  5. #80

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post
    The point still stands that what Ghetsis did to N was horrible and inhumane and that's more than enough to be called evil.
    I never said he wasn't. I said he wasn't as evil as Cyrus.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
    From: POKéMON RESEARCH TEAM.
    That couldn't have ended well.

  6. #81

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Jeez this place is fiery....
    Anyway.... Ghestis seems more evil to me. Cyrus isn't so bad actually, especially in the manga :> I'd even go so far as to say he's just hurt and misunderstood. Ghestis on the other hand is a complete dick, the way he treated N, and the fact that he's probably the source of the hypocritical/evil part of team plasma. I actually think he's less bad than Lysandre though, simply because Lysandre wanted to destroy all pokemon!! Just.....please no.... don't go there ok.....?
    BUGS!!
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