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  1. #61
    Crazy Automaton Lady Silverwynde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I'd have to go with Ghetsis here. He was abusive towards N, manipulating both him and other people with his lies in order to get what he wanted and tried to kill the playable character directly in B2/W2. Cyrus did try to do something bigger with making a new universe and that would have killed a lot of people too, but he wasn't out to kill people. He wanted to become a God, thinking that doing this was better than staying in this flawed and imperfect world. His plan and methods were evil, but Cyrus came off more as obsessed/deluded due to his own pain more than flat out evil.
    Exactly. Cyrus' plan screamed "I must burn the village in order to save it". Ghetsis wasn't trying to "save" anything. He just wanted power, no matter the cost.

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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Cyrus is definitely the more evil one. Everyone can say he was just misguided and such, but he wanted to destroy the WORLD, and on top of that, he wanted to become GOD. Him doing that, would kill a lot of people and Pokémon, and only an evil, power hungry, monster would even attempt something like that. Ghetsis only wanted to rule the world, not destroy it and become god.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Ghetsis manipulates N for his own gains and proceeds to insult him relentlessly when he fails to defeat the player. Cyrus was more honest in his approach since he genuinely believed that his goal would be beneficial for everyone so he did not have to use any ruses unlike Ghetsis. (This may sound off-topic but Cyrus' battle theme doesn't sound as evil or deadly as Ghetsis'). Not to mention Ghetsis has an underleveled Hydreigon (Which is probably a result of him constantly mistreating it). He also attempts to kill the player unlike Cyrus. As for fear factor, Ghetsis' battle got me quaking more than the battle with Cyrus since Ghetsis had higher level Pokemon.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Besides, as far as I can tell there wasn't any real abuse. All he did was give him Pokemon that were abused by trainers in the past. Sure, it's manipulative but the fact that Pokemon get hurt by people isn't exactly something untrue, and it's not like N would never see that some people treat their Pokemon nicely because as soon as he left the castle he'd find people like that. And he does.
    Ghestis abused him mentally. Abuse isn't always physical. By bringing all those wounded pokemon to N, he scarred him, probably for life. He then proceeded to manipulate his foster-son into trying to take Pokemon away from everyone, because Ghestis misguided N to believe that all trainers were like that, when in fact it was probably actually Ghestis who did the wounding.

    Ghestis=1, Cyrus=0

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    And trying to kill the protagonist is small potatoes compared to Archie and Maxie trying to kill a whole bunch of people and Cyrus trying to kill every body. And what do you think would have happened to the main character if they lost against the leaders? Most likely they'd be killed, maybe they'd leave them alive but none of the organization seem to have qualms about killing people. Maybe Team Rocket wouldn't, but they've killed a mother Marowak in the past, so I wouldn't put it past them.
    Ghestis purposely singled out the PC for killing/permanently freezing because he was tired of them getting in his way. Maxie and Archie just tried to keep them out of the way. I'm actually not certain that they ever realized that doing what they were trying to do was going to kill everyone. They were just that convinced that they had to do it. Cyrus, sure, he knew that everyone was going to be killed. In fact, he probably meant for that to happen. He was just THAT INSANE

    Ghestis=1, Cyrus=1

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by juiceboxxx View Post
    I'm going to bring something up that might be of interest:

    1: Cyrus has a Crobat, which evolves out of happiness, and
    2: Ghetsis' Hydreigon knows Frustration (and it's at full power)
    You know somebody else brought that up once. And I refuted it by saying that they could have gotten those Pokemon from other trainers, through theft or trade.
    The Crobat i can believe. it doesn't require any special attention of any sort once it evolves. And, Cyrus probably stole it. The Hydreigon though, I find hard to believe. Yes, he could have stolen the thing, but keeping Frustration at full power? That is insanely hard.

    Ghestis=2, Cyrus=1

    Also the lying thing. Ghestis is full of them in BW. He pretends to be a humble servant of a leader or an organization that has the good intentions of everyone at heart. The real him, behind that green hair? He has a red eyepatch and a ego bigger than the universe. He's the mastermind behind an infamous power grab plan, and lies even to his own son. He fools everyone, including the player, and then reveals his insanity. Cyrus on the other hand, lies until he can start his plan. No-one knows about his insanity until the red chains are activated and his plan is laid bare are the PCs feet. Then he reveals yet another lie, in that just he is going to enjoy this new realm. Then he jumps in and disappears into the distortion world once the player captures Giratina. Which is worse? it's opinionated. Ghestis fools way more people, even within his own organization, thus my opinion is that he gets a evilness point.

    Ghestis=3, Cyrus=2.

    Another thing. Cyrus wanted to do away with Emotions. sure, that means no fear, no loss, no sadness, none of the bad things we wish were gone. But it also means the good things, happiness, laughter, even love. And a world without love? where would the motivation be? we do things for the things we love, and do them well because of that. he didn't realize it, but he wanted to destroy emotions because he loved the ideal of a peaceful world

    Ghestis=3, Cyrus=3

    It's my opinion that Ghestis is the winner, but that might just be because he is more immediate, more in your face, more, I'm such an evil genus and you are going to die. Cyrus is more sneaky, more long-term, more hahaha i'm going to a new world that is free of emotions, smell ya later.

    EDIT: Silverwynde puts it perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    Exactly. Cyrus' plan screamed "I must burn the village in order to save it". Ghetsis wasn't trying to "save" anything. He just wanted power, no matter the cost.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    I think Ghetsis because he was truly evil in his plans whereas Cyrus wasn't doing his work to hurt people but because he thought he was making things better (or so I remember I only played the game once), the universe he wanted to rule was also so he could fix it. Ghetsis lied to everyone especially N and all his goals were for only himself.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Victini View Post
    Ghestis abused him mentally. Abuse isn't always physical. By bringing all those wounded pokemon to N, he scarred him, probably for life. He then proceeded to manipulate his foster-son into trying to take Pokemon away from everyone, because Ghestis misguided N to believe that all trainers were like that, when in fact it was probably actually Ghestis who did the wounding.

    Ghestis=1, Cyrus=0
    Look, I never said wounds can't be emotional. I was never implying as such. I said I can't tell. Meaning I don't have enough information. Like I don't know if he ever shouted at him or berated him or anything as a child. For all I know he could have just been cold and distant which considering how N acts towards him might be that. But I don't know, I'm not a psychiatrist, maybe that is how a kid who's been abuse acts towards their abuser, but again, I just don't what exactly happened.

    And okay, I'll level with you, if you count the abuse Pokemon that he was giving, okay. I still don't know what happened with that, and how scarred he came out because of it , cause they never go into that. But I'll concede that.

    The point of me arguing this point was because it didn't work on any level. It does't work as a fact because I don't know what happened, and though abuse was present I don't know the extent and I don't know how much that messed him up.

    It doesn't work as an argument that Ghetsis is worse then Cyrus because, well, as said before hurting one person does propel you to be worse then a guy that wants to kill everybody in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Victini View Post
    The Crobat i can believe. it doesn't require any special attention of any sort once it evolves. And, Cyrus probably stole it. The Hydreigon though, I find hard to believe. Yes, he could have stolen the thing, but keeping Frustration at full power? That is insanely hard.
    Well, maybe not if he recently stole it. I mean, I don't really know how stealing works but I would assume that the base friendship would reset to 0. But maybe I'm wrong but I don't know, it's kind of weird to talk about him being mean to his Pokemon while also talking about how it's hard to keep the friendship value low.

    If you're going to say he's mean to his Pokemon, show that by his actions in the game (which I'm not saying he's not, I'm just saying the Hydreigon isn't the way to make that point).

    If you can show anything by friendship being low with Hydreigon it's that Ghetsis uses a lot of herbs and has his Pokemon faint a lot (which could just mean he's cheap, a bad battler, or both.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Victini View Post
    Also the lying thing. Ghestis is full of them in BW. He pretends to be a humble servant of a leader or an organization that has the good intentions of everyone at heart. The real him, behind that green hair? He has a red eyepatch and a ego bigger than the universe. He's the mastermind behind an infamous power grab plan, and lies even to his own son. He fools everyone, including the player, and then reveals his insanity. Cyrus on the other hand, lies until he can start his plan. No-one knows about his insanity until the red chains are activated and his plan is laid bare are the PCs feet. Then he reveals yet another lie, in that just he is going to enjoy this new realm. Then he jumps in and disappears into the distortion world once the player captures Giratina. Which is worse? it's opinionated. Ghestis fools way more people, even within his own organization, thus my opinion is that he gets a evilness point.

    Ghestis=3, Cyrus=2.
    So he lied. What makes that worse than killing everybody?

    Oh my god, he has a big ego, someone call the police, somebody stop him please. I know you can't hear it but I said that in a very non-passionate voice. Do you think none of the leaders of any of the organizations had a big ego?

    Did he actually fool the hero? I guess I missed the part where that happened.

    Which is worse? I guess it is opinionated but the whole point of this debate is to try to justify one's own opinion, otherwise how can you know if it's one worth having?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Victini View Post
    It's my opinion that Ghestis is the winner, but that might just be because he is more immediate, more in your face, more, I'm such an evil genus and you are going to die. Cyrus is more sneaky, more long-term, more hahaha i'm going to a new world that is free of emotions, smell ya later.

    EDIT: Silverwynde puts it perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    Exactly. Cyrus' plan screamed "I must burn the village in order to save it". Ghetsis wasn't trying to "save" anything. He just wanted power, no matter the cost.
    I don't understand how that's worse but whatever. I'm more perturbed by the fact you think that's quotes any good.

    Seriously? You think someone who burns down a village is better then someone who wants power? How? Why?

    Oh, because he's heart was in the right place. Baloney.

    The best of intentions can make the worse things ever, and just because you had good intentions doesn't make what you did any better.

    You know, obtaining power isn't even a bad goal to seek out, it really isn't. It only becomes bad when you hurt people to get it, that's when it's a bad motivation.

    Same with trying to make the world a better place, not a bad goal, if you hurt people to obtain it then it is.
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  7. #67
    Crazy Automaton Lady Silverwynde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Seriously? You think someone who burns down a village is better then someone who wants power? How? Why?

    Oh, because he's heart was in the right place. Baloney.

    The best of intentions can make the worse things ever, and just because you had good intentions doesn't make what you did any better.
    It means that Cyrus has the one thing that Ghetsis will never have: a chance at redemption.

    It means that deep down, buried under twenty tons of crap, Cyrus still has some tiny shred of good within him. It means he isn't a lost cause like Ghetsis, who doesn't care about anyone except himself. It means that Cyrus has a chance to wake up and realize that what he's doing is wrong and could possibly turn his life around. Granted, it will probaby never happen but he does have that miniscule chance, which is something Ghetsis will never have or even hope to realize. That's the massive difference between the two.

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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Definitely Cyrus. All Ghetsis wanted to do was steal Pokémon and become a tyrant over Unova (BW)/freeze Unova and, once again, become its tyrant (BW2). Cyrus wanted to destroy the entire damn Pokémon universe and create a new one without emotions and rule as its god. That makes him 10X better than Ghetsis in my book. One of the reasons why Cyrus is my favorite villain.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    It means that Cyrus has the one thing that Ghetsis will never have: a chance at redemption.

    It means that deep down, buried under twenty tons of crap, Cyrus still has some tiny shred of good within him. It means he isn't a lost cause like Ghetsis, who doesn't care about anyone except himself. It means that Cyrus has a chance to wake up and realize that what he's doing is wrong and could possibly turn his life around. Granted, it will probaby never happen but he does have that miniscule chance, which is something Ghetsis will never have or even hope to realize. That's the massive difference between the two.
    Everybody has a chance at redemption. The only thing someone needs to redeem themselves is to apologize and try to do better in the future.

    Who's to say that Ghetsis doesn't have that ability? Just because he seem like strictly a pure evil character doesn't mean he is. I've seen it tons of times, a character does horribly evil things and then we find out that they had a "good" reason for doing so. That was the case with Cyrus. Most of the game he comes off like that then suddenly you find his Grandpa that gives sort of a reason why he did it and then 'poof' suddenly he's capable of being redeemed.

    In any case this has nothing to do with who was more evil. Everybody tries to do what they think is the right thing, how much you can sympathize with their views does not make their deeds better or worse. The measure of evil tends to be based on how heinous the crime is. You wouldn't say that a woman who kills her three children so they could go to heaven is better then a man who steals seven television sets because he wanted to, would you? I don't know, maybe you would, but the law system in my country (and maybe yours too) would probably be more favourable to the man then the woman (though they'd probably send the woman to a asylum instead of prison.)

    The point is, Ghetsis wanted to rule over a region, then freeze it. Bad, yes, worse then destroying the universe? No.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Cyrus didn't want to destroy the world for the benefit of mankind but rather for himself. I mean, he does say he's creating this new world for himself. No where does he say he legitimately cares about anybody else and is actually quite cold to everybody.
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  10. #70
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    I think evilness cannot be measured purely by the extent of one's ambitions. The person's morality and how far are they disposed to go are also factors that may turn even extremist ideas into good or bad. Cyrus' plan may have been broader in scope, but as an individual, he was far more reserved and mechanic in a way. He did order Team Galactic to do some extreme things like blow up lakes, and the creepy laboratory scene with the three Pixies, coupled with the unsettling music and how even the scientists are traumatized, really hits you and says that Cyrus is willing to go to the final consequences. However, he made his underlings get their hands dirty. He didn't dirty his own hands. Does that make him less evil? I would say yes. Maybe he cannot bring himself to do such horrible things by himself, meaning that behind his mechanical and emotionless demeanor, there remains a semblance of a moral sense. Another thing I find very important, is that Cyrus didn't pursue his scheme again. Platinum leaves it open in a way, making it sound like he stays in the Distortion World to find a way to materialize his ambitions again. However, unless we see Cyrus trying to reset the Universe in a future game, I think it's obvious that perhaps he found the solace he wanted in the lonely dimension, and, having been stopped, found no real gain or purpose in pushing for his original plan once again. Cyrus is a lot of an enigma, but I see in him less of a disposition to harm others. He had specific targets and made his Team do awful things, but he, himself, didn't seem capable of such acts, and never showed any disposition to go to the final consequences for his schemes by his lonesome.

    On the other hand, Ghetsis does. He took in stride to raise N the way he did so he could become the perfect pawn for his own gain. He had absolutely no remorse for his actions or ever showed any concern for N. Ghetsis warped his adopted son's perceptions of the world without any consideration. He was only an instrument. Cyrus may have also used his underlings as means to an end, but he never mistreated even a single Grunt under his command. He only sought the minimal losses for his scheme. Even his extraction of the Pixies' gems didn't go beyond that. I can't see Ghetsis stopping at the minimum impact. Much less during Black 2/White 2. And on that... Ghetsis pursued his scheme once more. He didn't dissolve the Team. He handpicked those loyal to him and kept on going to the final consequences. So much so, that he outright tries to practically kill the player character. Even after all N says, Ghetsis remains heartless and vengeful. In my view, Ghetsis is completely amoral, has absolutely no remorse for anything he does, and is clearly disposed to go as far as possible, even if he has to stain his own hands. Who says he would've stopped with Unova under his grasp? I see him going much further than that. Once he seized one Region, invading other Regions is not far off. His demeanor also displays he would clear the way out of anyone trying to stay between his ambitions in cold blood. I see him killing Pokémon and people left and right, even if it came to his lonesome. His fate as explained by the Shadow Triad shows that his ambition became his life, and failing twice over drove him to insanity, and basically lose the will to live.

    Also, Cyrus' scheme involved a painless death. Erasing the Universe would not be felt by anyone. They would just vanish. Cease existing. No pain. Only emptiness. Ghetsis was ready to scorch and freeze any opposition. Ice that cannot be thawed normally, let me stress. While those affected may be unconscious, they wouldn't survive. Ghetsis was ready to inflict pain to anyone. He didn't care at all. Cyrus, on the other hand, was much more humane in his approach. Cyrus' success would mean everything suddenly ends. Ghetsis' success involves fearing the day he comes, and face a painful, cold death until your body succumbs to hypothermia, or his punishing iron fist to your disagreement, had he succeeded in the first game.

    As such, regardless of scope, I see Ghetsis being infinitely more ruthless and merciless in his own pursuit. He wouldn't stop until the whole world was under his hand, submitted to his will, and unable to stand back. He cares for no one but himself, to a point that even Cyrus displays even a thread of concern for his own, until the time comes. Ghetsis cares for no one, his speeches all a ruse to sway people, as he seeks total domination, and anyone standing back would face the consequences. His amorality and merciless actions make him more evil in conjunction.

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  11. #71
    lol Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Look, I never said wounds can't be emotional. I was never implying as such. I said I can't tell. Meaning I don't have enough information. Like I don't know if he ever shouted at him or berated him or anything as a child. For all I know he could have just been cold and distant which considering how N acts towards him might be that. But I don't know, I'm not a psychiatrist, maybe that is how a kid who's been abuse acts towards their abuser, but again, I just don't what exactly happened.

    And okay, I'll level with you, if you count the abuse Pokemon that he was giving, okay. I still don't know what happened with that, and how scarred he came out because of it , cause they never go into that. But I'll concede that.
    You should visit N's playroom - especially the one in BW. N's playroom has all the signs of him having been mentally abused. He wasn't just treated coldly, he wasn't just given hurt pokemon - there's more to that.
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  12. #72

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion-Sama View Post
    I think evilness cannot be measured purely by the extent of one's ambitions. The person's morality and how far are they disposed to go are also factors that may turn even extremist ideas into good or bad. Cyrus' plan may have been broader in scope, but as an individual, he was far more reserved and mechanic in a way. He did order Team Galactic to do some extreme things like blow up lakes, and the creepy laboratory scene with the three Pixies, coupled with the unsettling music and how even the scientists are traumatized, really hits you and says that Cyrus is willing to go to the final consequences. However, he made his underlings get their hands dirty. He didn't dirty his own hands. Does that make him less evil? I would say yes. Maybe he cannot bring himself to do such horrible things by himself, meaning that behind his mechanical and emotionless demeanor, there remains a semblance of a moral sense. Another thing I find very important, is that Cyrus didn't pursue his scheme again. Platinum leaves it open in a way, making it sound like he stays in the Distortion World to find a way to materialize his ambitions again. However, unless we see Cyrus trying to reset the Universe in a future game, I think it's obvious that perhaps he found the solace he wanted in the lonely dimension, and, having been stopped, found no real gain or purpose in pushing for his original plan once again. Cyrus is a lot of an enigma, but I see in him less of a disposition to harm others. He had specific targets and made his Team do awful things, but he, himself, didn't seem capable of such acts, and never showed any disposition to go to the final consequences for his schemes by his lonesome.

    On the other hand, Ghetsis does. He took in stride to raise N the way he did so he could become the perfect pawn for his own gain. He had absolutely no remorse for his actions or ever showed any concern for N. Ghetsis warped his adopted son's perceptions of the world without any consideration. He was only an instrument. Cyrus may have also used his underlings as means to an end, but he never mistreated even a single Grunt under his command. He only sought the minimal losses for his scheme. Even his extraction of the Pixies' gems didn't go beyond that. I can't see Ghetsis stopping at the minimum impact. Much less during Black 2/White 2. And on that... Ghetsis pursued his scheme once more. He didn't dissolve the Team. He handpicked those loyal to him and kept on going to the final consequences. So much so, that he outright tries to practically kill the player character. Even after all N says, Ghetsis remains heartless and vengeful. In my view, Ghetsis is completely amoral, has absolutely no remorse for anything he does, and is clearly disposed to go as far as possible, even if he has to stain his own hands. Who says he would've stopped with Unova under his grasp? I see him going much further than that. Once he seized one Region, invading other Regions is not far off. His demeanor also displays he would clear the way out of anyone trying to stay between his ambitions in cold blood. I see him killing Pokémon and people left and right, even if it came to his lonesome. His fate as explained by the Shadow Triad shows that his ambition became his life, and failing twice over drove him to insanity, and basically lose the will to live.

    Also, Cyrus' scheme involved a painless death. Erasing the Universe would not be felt by anyone. They would just vanish. Cease existing. No pain. Only emptiness. Ghetsis was ready to scorch and freeze any opposition. Ice that cannot be thawed normally, let me stress. While those affected may be unconscious, they wouldn't survive. Ghetsis was ready to inflict pain to anyone. He didn't care at all. Cyrus, on the other hand, was much more humane in his approach. Cyrus' success would mean everything suddenly ends. Ghetsis' success involves fearing the day he comes, and face a painful, cold death until your body succumbs to hypothermia, or his punishing iron fist to your disagreement, had he succeeded in the first game.

    As such, regardless of scope, I see Ghetsis being infinitely more ruthless and merciless in his own pursuit. He wouldn't stop until the whole world was under his hand, submitted to his will, and unable to stand back. He cares for no one but himself, to a point that even Cyrus displays even a thread of concern for his own, until the time comes. Ghetsis cares for no one, his speeches all a ruse to sway people, as he seeks total domination, and anyone standing back would face the consequences. His amorality and merciless actions make him more evil in conjunction.
    Why do you assume Ghetsis was trying to rule the world? He never mentions the world and his plan would never work on that large a scale.

    Also, where are you getting this "painless death" and "never hurt his underlings" thing from? That's never mention in D/P/P. And of course he got his hands dirty, he was the one who summoned the dragon(s). Does that not count?

    Can you cite any of the stuff you're claiming or is it a "now that I've said it, it must be canon" kind of thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post
    You should visit N's playroom - especially the one in BW. N's playroom has all the signs of him having been mentally abused. He wasn't just treated coldly, he wasn't just given hurt pokemon - there's more to that.
    What signs?! And trust me, I've looked through that room extensively trying to find this supposed "abuse" people have been talking about. All I found was a lot of toys and like one that was gnawed and scratched on by Pokemon. How is that evidence of abuse?
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    That couldn't have ended well.

  13. #73
    lol Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Chocolate View Post
    You should visit N's playroom - especially the one in BW. N's playroom has all the signs of him having been mentally abused. He wasn't just treated coldly, he wasn't just given hurt pokemon - there's more to that.
    What signs?! And trust me, I've looked through that room extensively trying to find this supposed "abuse" people have been talking about. All I found was a lot of toys and like one that was gnawed and scratched on by Pokemon. How is that evidence of abuse?
    It's mental abuse, so it won't stand out. You have to look at things carefully. The signs are pretty subtle, so it's easy to miss them.

    Here are a few examples:

    You'll notice there's a train in the basketball hoop and a dart in the art panel. This probably means he doesn't know how to play with them. N was never taught how to play with toys, and he doesn't know the proper use. With all those people at his service - his sisters, the sages, the grunts, even Ghetsis - not a single person taught him how to play with toys. He was neglected and had no communication between humans.

    You can pick up a Rare Candy in there. It's not just some rare item lying anywhere - it has a special meaning. With a Rare Candy, you level up a pokemon, but the EVs remain unchanged. N is still a child at heart, and mentally a child - only his body grew up. Also, he's been given new toys to play with even as an adult - and there are signs of having played with recently. He wasn't given the right environmental stimulation to grow mentally - he was confined to that room for a long time, unaware of what was actually going in the world.

    Remember that N was only given hurt pokemon for friends. In other words, he didn't have any human friends. Like I said, with all the people at his service, not a single person was his human friend.
    This show knows

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Why do you assume Ghetsis was trying to rule the world? He never mentions the world and his plan would never work on that large a scale.

    Also, where are you getting this "painless death" and "never hurt his underlings" thing from? That's never mention in D/P/P. And of course he got his hands dirty, he was the one who summoned the dragon(s). Does that not count?

    Can you cite any of the stuff you're claiming or is it a "now that I've said it, it must be canon" kind of thing?
    The way Ghetsis acts and the way he's presented strikes me as the kind of person that won't stop until he owns everything. He doesn't needs to pull off the same plan. He would use persuasion once he seizes Unova's control and force people to fight for him if he so desired. It's what he did with N and his entire Team.

    And yes, nothing of that is said. I am just making educated guesses. If it's not mentioned or drawn attention to, it means it didn't happen or occurrences were sporadic or silenced. It doesn't say anywhere that Cyrus didn't mistreat his underlings, but it doesn't say anywhere that he did, either. Conversely, with Ghetsis there's clear signs of the psychological abuse he inflicted on N and his persuasive ways. The way he acts enraged when N and Colress two years later have failed also denotes he didn't tolerate failure. Cyrus either didn't care or never made big out of it. However, if it's not mentioned, it could have happened or not, so I am just making educated guesses in the emphasis given.

    As for the painless thing, tell me if you know what happens if you're erased from existence. Time and space are abstract concepts. That is merely my interpretation of how being erased from the continuum would feel like. I have no way to know, but the way it appears to me, it sounds painless. I am here, and suddenly I am not here anymore. Is it painful? Hell if I know. I interpret it is not. That's how I see such concepts.

    I never claimed anything of what I said was canon, either. I just made my own interpretations of both characters and analyzed them in a deeper light so my own concept of evilness can elucidate who was more evil. It's the same way you say Cyrus is more evil only because his scheme affects more people. For me that's a too basic interpretation and not at all compliant with how I, myself, interpret degrees of evilness in my mind. This is an opinion thread too, so yeah. This is my own opinion and analysis. Whether the game said it out loud or not is irrelevant. What it did say, I interpreted with my own perceptions, and hence my post. It doesn't make it canon or anything. A story, let alone a game, doesn't have to give us every single detail in a silver platter.

    "I'm sure that we and Pokémon have helped each other and enriched the world since ancient times. These memories have been engraved in each Pokémon's heart! So, I want Pokémon and people to get closer and closer! As the Champion, I want to tell that to everybody!"

  15. #75

    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis?

    After looking through all these posts, I just have one thing to say. While looking at all the arguments, most of them disagree on the meaning of evil. So I ask you guys then, what is your definition of evil?

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