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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    You just don't get a Crobat to like you after stealing it unless you're James (who had been able to get friendly with a Chingling he stole from a CotD). You battle Cyrus having a Golbat in early Platinum, it's obviously his bat. Besides, even if he stole it as a Golbat and evolved it, it just shows how he can bond with pokemon and get friendly anyways - he managed to persuade the pokemon to ditch its owner and like him.
    That could have been a different bat though. And even if it was, it's not like friendship isn't difficult to obtain. Just keep leveling up the Pokemon and don't make it faint too often. Or hell, use a bunch of vitamins on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    Ghetsis' Hydreigon is obviously his. How you even get your pokemon to hate you that much is unthinkable (because every basic action you do raises happiness - even simply carrying it around makes it friendly). He probably abused the poor dragon to the point of hating him, and that would've had to happen over many years. Even if it was stolen, it had been under Ghetsis' ownership for a long time, so its his Hydreigon anyways. Have you ever tried getting a pokemon use Frustration at full power? It takes a friggin long time even if you force feed it stuff it won't like and making it faint all the time. Imagine all the money it takes as well.

    Thus, Ghetsis is more evil
    Well, how low is his happiness level with Ghetsis? Is it at zero or seventy or what? Cause like, you say it's at full power but I don't really know because there's no place that states its power (from what I can find).

    I guess his whole argument is kind of moot because a character should be judge by their personality not by the Pokemon they use. It like saying Agatha likes killing people because she trains Ghost types, it's ridiculous.

    P.S. While looking up Ghetsis's page I noticed this:
    In Pokémon Black 2 and White 2, Ghetsis is the first antagonist in the main series games to try to incapacitate the player. He attempts to have Kyurem freeze the player with Glaciate, but that move cannot cause freezing when used in battle. Before the English releases of Pokémon Black 2 and White 2, this threat was mistranslated by various sources as a threat to kill and impale them using Kyurem's icicles.
    I haven't actually played W2 all the way through so I didn't know that this whole "he tried to kill the protagonist" thing, was actually a lie.
    Last edited by coolcatkim22; 17th June 2013 at 08:06 AM.
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  2. #32
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    @coolcatkim22;

    ...how many humans do you think might actually survive a hit coming from a legendary? Even if Ghetsis didn't directly order a kill, the attack itself would've been fatal anyways...

    Remember Hunter J ordering her Salamence to use Hyper Beam directly on Ash? Do you think she would've ordered that so Ash could walk out of that attack alive? Same thing.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    @coolcatkim22;

    ...how many humans do you think might actually survive a hit coming from a legendary? Even if Ghetsis didn't directly order a kill, the attack itself would've been fatal anyways...

    Remember Hunter J ordering her Salamence to use Hyper Beam directly on Ash? Do you think she would've ordered that so Ash could walk out of that attack alive? Same thing.
    Considering that a Caterpie could survive that kind of attack, I don't think that would happen. Especially if Pokemon have any sort of control over the lethal abilities of their attacks, which I assume they do since Pokemon aren't dying left and right in Pokemon battles.

    Oh yeah, the anime. You mean the same anime where a person can survive been burned and electrocuted without severe injuries. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that a Pokemon can't kill with their attacks unless they mean to.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
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  4. #34
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    @coolcatkim22;

    ...how many humans do you think might actually survive a hit coming from a legendary? Even if Ghetsis didn't directly order a kill, the attack itself would've been fatal anyways...

    Remember Hunter J ordering her Salamence to use Hyper Beam directly on Ash? Do you think she would've ordered that so Ash could walk out of that attack alive? Same thing.
    Considering that a Caterpie could survive that kind of attack, I don't think that would happen. Especially if Pokemon have any sort of control over the lethal abilities of their attacks, which I assume they do since Pokemon aren't dying left and right in Pokemon battles.

    Oh yeah, the anime. You mean the same anime where a person can survive been burned and electrocuted without severe injuries. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that a Pokemon can't kill with their attacks unless they mean to.
    I don't think they'd have any reason to hold back when attacking humans, though. Maybe Kyurem could pity the Caterpie and just faint it since it's a fellow Pokemon. But Kyurem doesn't have any reason to not kill humans.

    You said it just there, and Hunter J directly ordered her Salamance to use a Hyper Beam on Ash. Salamance doesn't have any reason to show mercy on Ash - who isn't a pokemon and a human that his owner wants to clear.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    I don't think they'd have any reason to hold back when attacking humans, though. Maybe Kyurem could pity the Caterpie and just faint it since it's a fellow Pokemon. But Kyurem doesn't have any reason to not kill humans.

    You said it just there, and Hunter J directly ordered her Salamance to use a Hyper Beam on Ash. Salamance doesn't have any reason to show mercy on Ash - who isn't a pokemon and a human that his owner wants to clear.
    I don't see any reason Kyurem would want to kill you ether. What would Kyurem gain out of killing you exactly? It's not like Pokemon just naturally go around killing people and even when they do it's always for a reason. The only reason Kyurem would in this situation is if Ghetsis ordered him to, which he didn't. In any case, this has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
    You said Ghetsis was trying to kill you, he wasn't. He might have killed you if you got frozen but that clearly wasn't his intent. He wanted you to watch him take over, so he at least thought or knew the attack wouldn't kill you.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by juiceboxxx View Post
    I'm going to bring something up that might be of interest:

    1: Cyrus has a Crobat, which evolves out of happiness, and
    2: Ghetsis' Hydreigon knows Frustration (and it's at full power)
    You know somebody else brought that up once. And I refuted it by saying that they could have gotten those Pokemon from other trainers, through theft or trade.
    You just don't get a Crobat to like you after stealing it unless you're James (who had been able to get friendly with a Chingling he stole from a CotD). You battle Cyrus having a Golbat in early Platinum, it's obviously his bat. Besides, even if he stole it as a Golbat and evolved it, it just shows how he can bond with pokemon and get friendly anyways - he managed to persuade the pokemon to ditch its owner and like him.

    Ghetsis' Hydreigon is obviously his. How you even get your pokemon to hate you that much is unthinkable (because every basic action you do raises happiness - even simply carrying it around makes it friendly). He probably abused the poor dragon to the point of hating him, and that would've had to happen over many years. Even if it was stolen, it had been under Ghetsis' ownership for a long time, so its his Hydreigon anyways. Have you ever tried getting a pokemon use Frustration at full power? It takes a friggin long time even if you force feed it stuff it won't like and making it faint all the time. Imagine all the money it takes as well.

    Thus, Ghetsis is more evil
    Plus there's the whole in-game mechanic of happiness levels resetting to 0 whenever a Pokemon switches trainers. Even if Ghetsis stole that dragon, it would've been neutral toward him at the beginning. Whatever he did to make Hydreigon hate him that much would have come afterward.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    You said Ghetsis was trying to kill you, he wasn't. He might have killed you if you got frozen but that clearly wasn't his intent. He wanted you to watch him take over, so he at least thought or knew the attack wouldn't kill you.
    Wait.

    So if Ghetsis wasn't trying to kill you, he was instead trying to trap you, completely immobilized, in ice for all eternity (or at least until you die), forcing you to watch helplessly as he began his reign of terror, without ever finding out what would happen to your loved ones or anyone else you met on your journey, even if it's just whether or not they're still alive and safe. Assuming your Pokemon are frozen with you, they're subject to the same fate; if they aren't, Ghetsis probably took them for himself and abused them the same way he abused Hydreigon.

    ...that's arguably worse than killing. Far worse.
    Last edited by juiceboxxx; 18th June 2013 at 02:56 AM.
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by juiceboxxx View Post
    Wait.

    So if Ghetsis wasn't trying to kill you, he was instead trying to trap you, completely immobilized, in ice for all eternity (or at least until you die), forcing you to watch helplessly as he began his reign of terror, without ever finding out what would happen to your loved ones or anyone else you met on your journey, even if it's just whether or not they're still alive and safe. Assuming your Pokemon are frozen with you, they're subject to the same fate; if they aren't, Ghetsis probably took them for himself and abused them the same way he abused Hydreigon.

    ...that's arguably worse than killing. Far worse.
    Who said he was trying to freeze you there for eternity? Where does he say in the game that he wants you to be frozen there forever?
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    I don't think they'd have any reason to hold back when attacking humans, though. Maybe Kyurem could pity the Caterpie and just faint it since it's a fellow Pokemon. But Kyurem doesn't have any reason to not kill humans.

    You said it just there, and Hunter J directly ordered her Salamance to use a Hyper Beam on Ash. Salamance doesn't have any reason to show mercy on Ash - who isn't a pokemon and a human that his owner wants to clear.
    I don't see any reason Kyurem would want to kill you ether. What would Kyurem gain out of killing you exactly? It's not like Pokemon just naturally go around killing people and even when they do it's always for a reason. The only reason Kyurem would in this situation is if Ghetsis ordered him to, which he didn't. In any case, this has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
    You said Ghetsis was trying to kill you, he wasn't. He might have killed you if you got frozen but that clearly wasn't his intent. He wanted you to watch him take over, so he at least thought or knew the attack wouldn't kill you.
    Kyurem eats frozen Humans for his late night feasts.
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Gotta reply to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Besides, as far as I can tell there wasn't any real abuse.
    You do not have to have bruises on your body to be abused. There are such things as psychological abuse and emotional abuse. A lot of abusers use this to break their victim's will so that said victim will do whatever the abuser wants. I am willing to bet that Ghetsis used this sort of abuse against N in order to further his sick twisted plan. How do I know?

    My mother abused me. Most of it was physical--she choked me when I was 14--but the rest involved screwing with my head to keep me obedient. To this day, I can barely make a decision for myself; my will has been pretty much completely shattered. That's why it made perfect sense to me that N complacently went along with Ghetsis' plans until the very end.

    Just on that front, Ghetsis takes it as the absolute most evil. The other evil teams had misguided ideas but they didn't throw a lovefest and tell everyone to hold hands while handing over what would be nature's equivalent to nuclear weapons. Ghetsis did just that, swearing he was trying to "save" the poor innocent abused Pokemon while in reality he was hoarding them as weapons of mass destruction. Ghetsis is truly evil in my eyes and completely unredeemable. The others can't even come close.



    And before you ask: No, I am not an N fangirl. I like the character, but I don't fawn over him. I do, however, understand some of the slag he went through.

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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    I feel really, really, bad for you. That must've been terrible- why couldn't you tell somebody else you trusted about it and have them help you, like a teacher, or etc. Or did she scare you into not doing THAT either?

    Somebody please check out my RP!!! Claimer of moody and present!

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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeveewithwings123 View Post
    I feel really, really, bad for you. That must've been terrible- why couldn't you tell somebody else you trusted about it and have them help you, like a teacher, or etc. Or did she scare you into not doing THAT either?
    Might wan to save that for VMs/PMs? We don't want his mother the next villlain after Ghetsis and Cyrus. (JK! :p) (I don't think you hate your mother, she's just imposing......I can understand that.)

    On Topic:There are two factors here: Intention and Impact

    How dangerous a villain is depends on these.

    Intention: Cyrus wants a gentler world, where he can run along the meadows naked without noone else to disturb him. He likes to enjoy the peace. He likes to sit alone and love how calm his new world is.

    Ghetsis is much terrible in this regard. He wants to rob people of the Pokemon they have and make them suffer. Just imagine what would have happened in N won.

    People would have to release with their dear partners: Pokemon. They will have to live in an opressed world where everyone dances to the tunes of Ghetsis's whims.

    Impact: People wouldn't even know if Cyrus hit them. Except Lucas and Co. in games, Ash and Co. in anime. They would all just die under the destruction.

    Ghetsis on the other hand wants people to suffer under him. He wouldn't destroy the world, but killing a person is better than cutting his leg off. Ghetsis is thus worse in both aspects.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    Kyurem eats frozen Humans for his late night feasts.
    Oh, it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    My mother abused me. Most of it was physical--she choked me when I was 14--but the rest involved screwing with my head to keep me obedient. To this day, I can barely make a decision for myself; my will has been pretty much completely shattered.
    .....
    Dude, wtf.

    I can't even respond to the rest of your post because you brought up something so personal and messed up.

    Jesus Christ...
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolcatkim22 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dracoflare View Post
    Kyurem eats frozen Humans for his late night feasts.
    Oh, it does not.
    From Bulbapedia:

    The Lacunosa Legend

    A long time ago, it is said that a large meteor came from the sky containing a terrifying monster. It was said that at night the monster would appear in the town along with the cold winds and take away humans and Pokémon to eat them. Eventually, the residents of the town surrounded Lacunosa Town in a wall to keep the monster out and a rule was then set on the town that forbade anyone from leaving at night and encouraged people to stay in their homes. Even though Lacunosa residents claim to no longer believe this old story, they still stay inside of their houses at night and the walls remain standing to this day.
    Now granted, this could simply be a myth but the fact that Kyurem was about to hurl a number of spear-shaped icicles at the PC in BW2 pretty much tells me he ain't friendly. Which leads me to think that if Ghetsis knew this, he's even more twisted and evil than I had previously thought. Seriously, that guy is screwed up in the head.

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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Ghestis was more evil. Cyrus was just deranged and lost it. Ghetsis is just a prick, period.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Who was more evil Cyrus or Ghetsis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverwynde View Post
    Now granted, this could simply be a myth but the fact that Kyurem was about to hurl a number of spear-shaped icicles at the PC in BW2 pretty much tells me he ain't friendly. Which leads me to think that if Ghetsis knew this, he's even more twisted and evil than I had previously thought. Seriously, that guy is screwed up in the head.
    That myth was contradicted in B2/W2, so I really doubt that.

    Also, when did he throw icicles at the main character? I haven't played the game all the way through, but I can't find any references to that happening.
    Computer: There's an e-mail message! ... The 3 legendary bird POKéMON are ARTICUNO, ZAPDOS, and MOLTRES. Their whereabouts are unknown. We plan to explore the cavern close to CERULEAN.
    From: POKéMON RESEARCH TEAM.
    That couldn't have ended well.

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