Pokemon Magicians

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    Default Pokemon Magicians

    Here you can discuss Pokemon Magicians in general. You can also talk about magic and alchemy, and what role this plays in the Pokemon World.

    In the anime, there seems to be two different types of Pokemon Magicians:

    - magicans who perform simple illusions and tricks to entertain people

    - magicans like Lily, who carry around a spellbook and gather ingredients from Pokemon (chants or incantations also seem to be required). Apparently, this kind of magic is very powerful, because it was able to turn Ash into a Pikachu (and change him back too).

    Personally, I like the character Lily, and I wish they would've had her return in another episode. It was so interesting, learning about how she performs her magic in "Hocus Pokemon". For one thing, Lily's spellbook has been in her family for generations, and it's been passed down to each generation. So we know for a fact, that the history of this kind of magic must go WAY back!

    That's pretty interesting, if you ask me! ^^

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    A black and white world Blackjack Gabbiani's Avatar
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    I'm interested in Butler because he was also a scientist, and that's a very awesome combination.

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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    I was thinking Lily was like the Hex Maniac trainer class in RSE.

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    I wonder... If there were magicians of the kind that control elements, would they have fire-water-grass atributes? probably, as those would be the elements they would manipualte... Maybe a highly skilled one could even make a move like Flamethrower or Ice Beam.

    Actually, I think there could have been a clan or something of these magicians that were able to face troublesome pokemon, before the concept of capturing them and using them to fight was around... Also, considering that some pokemon highly resemble humans, maybe these pokemon actually come from some these clans, that specialiced too much in a kind of magic... In japanese mythology humans can turn into yokai after all...

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    Magic that doesn't exert from the Pokemon themselves or science is pretty interesting, even in Pokemon. Though there is more than one way to be a Pokemon.

    Crystals, Jirachi, Nuclear reaction, drugs, the list goes on.

    Not that most of these would ever occur in the anime. xD


    I wouldn't mind, or rather, I would love another Ashachu appearance. Since DP loves to remake some Johto episodes, why not re-feature Ashachu? Though, he needs another method.

    But yeah, we need some spellcasters in this series. It may not make a whole lot of sense, but then again, when has Pokemon ever made sense.


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    Good for Lisa to make this thread, because I was about to comment on the posts made on the DP 070 thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonTrainerLisa View Post
    I mean, they treated the storyline of Ash's transformation more like it was something that happens all the time in the anime, rather than something which was really unique and original.
    Again, the writers weren't the smartest of the bunch back in Johto.

    And then all of a sudden, there is a cloud of white smoke and Ash changes back. The expression on his face is just priceless! XD He's like, "O.O"
    I vaguely remember this episode. It felt like a "...what just happened?" when they did that. Poorly done.

    Imagine if a random trainer happened to pass by when that was happening. They would think they're seeing things! LOL.
    Then he'd be in the smoke too. And watch him turn into a Pokemon! XD

    In that case, I should probably see the rest of the HP movies I haven't seen yet. I don't know anything about Animagi. ^^;
    Heh, are you sure you want to use the movies as your reference? They do a poor job of explaining what Animagi are.

    Apart from HP, have you heard of the Animorphs series?

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    I like most of the magician episodes, but I culdn't understand it at all.

    Off topic: I have JB88, and I have almost all the books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnoo View Post
    But yeah, we need some spellcasters in this series.
    Ooh, I just thought of something...

    Does Aura = magic? I mean, do you think Aura could be the writers' way of including "magic" into the D/P series, without actually including magic or Pokemon Magicians?

    Then again, I'm still not sure what exactly Aura is. Actually, I was waiting to find out Aura's explanation in the upcoming Riolu episodes (it's a shame they're skipping those episodes for now). ^^;

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Again, the writers weren't the smartest of the bunch back in Johto.
    I know! This makes it even more surprising how they came up with the idea in the first place. XD

    I mean, when I first saw "Hocus Pokemon", I was amazed at what happened at the end of the episode. I swear, it felt like a dream or something!

    It was almost like the writers took a storyline from a fanfic and decided to make it REAL! XD Because in my opinion, that's how incredibly unique Ashachu was. ^_^


    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    I vaguely remember this episode. It felt like a "...what just happened?" when they did that. Poorly done.
    Heh, I can send you both "Hocus Pokemon" and "As Clear As Crystal", if you need the episodes. XD Just PM me if you want them. ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Then he'd be in the smoke too. And watch him turn into a Pokemon! XD?
    Actually, when I mentioned Ash's expression, I was talking about the look on his face when he changed back. LOL. XD

    Also, if someone were to pass by and see a Pokemon/Pikachu become a human they would definitely be surprised (same thing if they saw Ash get transformed). XD


    Also, here's another thing I've been wondering. Because Ash was turned into a Pikachu, does this mean that Pokemon Magic has the power to turn a human into any Pokemon (except legendaries of course)?

    One could assume that, because there was a spell which turned a human into a Pikachu - there might be other spells which could have similar results. Meaning, any of these magic spells could somehow, potentially cause a human to become a certain Pokemon.

    The question though, is whether or not this was intentional (by the Pokemon magicians or whoever wrote the spellbook), or whether the human-to-Pokemon transformation was simply accidental (and not supposed to happen). Keep in mind that when Lily saw what happened to Ash, those were her exact words "Strange, that wasn't supposed to happen."

    Heh. It sure makes you think, doesn't it? XD

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Heh, are you sure you want to use the movies as your reference? They do a poor job of explaining what Animagi are.?
    In that case, I'll probably just search for it on wikipedia or something. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Apart from HP, have you heard of the Animorphs series?
    Yes, I have. I actually have a lot of those books, cause I used to be a huge fan of the Animorphs series. ^^

    Although, nowadays, I don't read books much, if any.
    Last edited by Trainer Lisa; 21st August 2008 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ino The Survivor
    Off topic: I have JB88, and I have almost all the books.
    That's good to know. I guess there aren't a lot of raving HP fans on here, or I may be mistaken. I used to be one.

    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonTrainerLisa
    Does Aura = magic? I mean, do you think Aura could be the writers' way of including "magic" into the D/P series, without actually including magic or Pokemon Magicians?

    Then again, I'm still not sure what exactly Aura is. Actually, I was waiting to find out Aura's explanation in the upcoming Riolu episodes (it's a shame they're skipping those episodes for now). ^^;
    Actually, I'd like to think of Aura as the "soul energy" inside any being, similar to qi. There is also the actual meaning of aura, which relates to religious themes. That may the one similar to what we're discussing. Other disambiguations of Aura are an optical phenomenon, known as halos and a symptom related to seizures and headaches. I don't know if "Aura" as May's name in Spanish means anything (other than Advanceshipping hints).

    It was almost like the writers took a storyline from a fanfic and decided to make it REAL! XD Because in my opinion, that's how incredibly unique Ashachu was. ^_^
    With the right flow we would've gotten a nice arc from this.

    Heh, I can send you both "Hocus Pokemon" and "As Clear As Crystal", if you need the episodes. XD Just PM me if you want them. ^^
    Thank you for the offer, but I can find them myself if I want to see them. Very generous of you.

    Actually, when I mentioned Ash's expression, I was talking about the look on his face when he changed back. LOL. XD
    Heh, sorry, don't remember.

    Also, here's another thing I've been wondering. Because Ash was turned into a Pikachu, does this mean that Pokemon Magic has the power to turn a human into any Pokemon (except legendaries of course)?
    Possible, if you have the right ingredients. I think I remember "Lily" had some book with her, using some ingredients? Or were they just words?

    The question though, is whether or not this was intentional (by the Pokemon magicians or whoever wrote the spellbook), or whether the human-to-Pokemon transformation was simply accidental (and not supposed to happen). Keep in mind that when Lily saw what happened to Ash, those were her exact words "Strange, that wasn't supposed to happen."
    Well, from the magical world I know *winks*, for an average wizard or witch, past his/her learning experiences, to say "that wasn't supposed to happen" would be clearly unacceptable. Unless you're some kook, or experimenting like this girl may have, or the writers were just doing it for their usual "shits and giggles".

    I can only see if you're in the learning phase, to make such remarks, because you are learning how to cast the spell. Which makes me now wonder, where did this "Lily" come from? In a Pokemon world, with seeing "mostly" normal people, this is weird to see. A girl in a witch's costume wandering around with a book and having shits and giggles...

    This world is quite the melting pot. You've got people not in different skin color, but people with completely different ideologies. They don't all follow the same path, they all tend to their own communities. I can think of this as an example, then the Xatu episode, and some other "ritualistic" people (like the people in the Orange Islands, don't remember it well, but there was Meowth as their leader or something, and there was fruit).

    In that case, I'll probably just search for it on wikipedia or something. XD
    Or I could just tell you in a nutshell. ;)

    I didn't remember the Animorphs books very well, so I can't explain them fully. But I hope you get the picture from that. I never wasn't into it, just read the books somewhat.

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    Registered User Adamant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonTrainerLisa View Post
    In the anime, there seems to be two different types of Pokemon Magicians:
    Eh, that's only due to the limitations of the English language, and it's lack of a specific term to describe stage magicians. Lily and Whatsherface shouldn't really be described wit hthe same term, since their professions are two completely different things. In retrospect, it would've been wiser to call Lily a sorceress, but of course they had no idea an actual stage magician would show up in the series 6 years later at the time.
    So.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Possible, if you have the right ingredients. I think I remember "Lily" had some book with her, using some ingredients? Or were they just words?
    Yes, she has a spellbook, which tells her how to perform Pokemon Magic. But the way Pokemon Magic works is by using ingredients from Pokemon. So, both the spellbook and the ingredients are necessary to complete the spells.

    If you don't have all the ingredients, then you can't complete the spell. Actually, now that I think about it, that explains why no one else was able to complete the Pokemon Mind Reading spell until now. Not only were there a lot of ingredients in that spell, but they were also very hard to find. And apparently, wild Pikachu must be hard to find in the anime (otherwise, that spell would've been completed before).

    Although, I don't understand why the writers made the text of Lily's book "smuged". Because at the end of the episode, Lily couldn't read the next page of the spell, so we (the audience) we're prevented from finding out whether the spell went wrong, or whether that's how the spell actually works.


    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    I can only see if you're in the learning phase, to make such remarks, because you are learning how to cast the spell.
    That's what I think, actually. I bet Lily wasn't nearly as exprerienced as some other Pokemon Magicians might be.

    That, and also, she was probably experimenting with this particular spell, because she said the following: "this spell has never been completed, because there was always one ingredient missing, a Pikachu's Thunderbolt".

    At the beginning of the episode, Lily also said, "I'm performing a new trick for my magic show and I need a Pikachu's Thunderbolt".

    LOL, I don't think she would want to perform THAT trick for her magic show, otherwise she might have one (or more than one) unhappy customer. Hehehe. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    This world is quite the melting pot. You've got people not in different skin color, but people with completely different ideologies. They don't all follow the same path, they all tend to their own communities.
    Oh, yes! I love all those different cultures!

    The world of the Pokemon anime is so interesting and diverse. It's awesome!! ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Or I could just tell you in a nutshell. ;)

    I didn't remember the Animorphs books very well, so I can't explain them fully. But I hope you get the picture from that. I never wasn't into it, just read the books somewhat.
    Oh, so Animagi are similar to Animorphs? Ah, I get what they are now. Thanks! ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Adamant View Post
    Eh, that's only due to the limitations of the English language, and it's lack of a specific term to describe stage magicians. Lily and Whatsherface shouldn't really be described wit hthe same term, since their professions are two completely different things. In retrospect, it would've been wiser to call Lily a sorceress, but of course they had no idea an actual stage magician would show up in the series 6 years later at the time.
    Oh, I see.

    Thank you for explaining that, Adamant. ^^

    I've been wondering about that for a while.
    Last edited by Trainer Lisa; 22nd August 2008 at 12:46 AM.

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    No Sacrifice, No Victory Rosakai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonTrainerLisa View Post
    Although, I don't understand why the writers made the text of Lily's book "smuged". Because at the end of the episode, Lily couldn't read the next page of the spell, so we (the audience) we're prevented from finding out whether the spell went wrong, or whether that's how the spell actually works.
    I wonder-if that's how the spell is supposed to work, is Pikachu the only Pokemon you can turn into? Or can you alter the ingredients (like, say, use a Chimchar's Flamethrower) to become a different Pokemon? It's something I've always thought about. Surely Pikachu isn't the only Pokemon the spell can result in? Since it was the only result we saw, it's hard to tell for certain...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosakai View Post
    I wonder-if that's how the spell is supposed to work, is Pikachu the only Pokemon you can turn into? Or can you alter the ingredients (like, say, use a Chimchar's Flamethrower) to become a different Pokemon?
    Wow! That's exactly what I was wondering! ^_^

    But I didn't know how to word it. Hehe. XD


    You know, it seems like, after they made "Hocus Pokemon", the writers left a lot of questions unanswered. That is a shame, because we don't know much about Pokemon Magic, or the Pokemon Mind Reading Spell (and we really don't know anything about Ashachu).

    That's why, if the writers ever get the chance, they should redo this storyline in D/P. I know that if they ever had this idea again, they would make an awesome episode (or couple of episodes).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamant
    Eh, that's only due to the limitations of the English language, and it's lack of a specific term to describe stage magicians. Lily and Whatsherface shouldn't really be described wit hthe same term, since their professions are two completely different things. In retrospect, it would've been wiser to call Lily a sorceress, but of course they had no idea an actual stage magician would show up in the series 6 years later at the time.
    Yes, I think the first thing to do is differentiate between what Lily is and what Francesca is. Then there's also Callista's case, and I'll get to that momentarily.

    I would say we should talk more of Lily, and less of Francesca from DP 070. This is because Francesca is the "commercialized, modernized" definition of a magician, as a form of entertainer. Lily is not like this. She acts like a witch but under this guise I don't know what she really does.

    Callista's case is unique, because her role is like a Seer, or fortune teller-type, and it turns out she eventually has a real job as a weather reporter (so the Seer of weather forecasting via the Xatu is a guise). So if Lily was more explored, we might've found out what she really does, instead of wearing a witch's costume and wandering around with a book. Again, this was nowhere within the writers' grasp, so we can't go anywhere with it, just to compare Callista and Lily. Did Lily have any Pokemon?

    Quote Originally Posted by PokemonTainerLisa
    Yes, she has a spellbook, which tells her how to perform Pokemon Magic. But the way Pokemon Magic works is by using ingredients from Pokemon. So, both the spellbook and the ingredients are necessary to complete the spells.
    Okay, so I kinda see where the writers were going with this, by a rehash of HP lore mixed in...

    If you don't have all the ingredients, then you can't complete the spell. Actually, now that I think about it, that explains why no one else was able to complete the Pokemon Mind Reading spell until now. Not only were there a lot of ingredients in that spell, but they were also very hard to find. And apparently, wild Pikachu must be hard to find in the anime (otherwise, that spell would've been completed before).
    Again, the writers were going with that HP tangent and see if they could compete with J.K. Rowling. Because in that world, nothing goes right (when it comes to Potions, specifically). With transforming and other things however, it takes a different process for it to work right, such as mental skill and preparation. Oh, and saying the spell correctly, through pronunciation. What "Lily" was doing was a mixture of Potion-making and everything else. Quite poor for writing standards, if I say so myself. I mean, if you want to imitate a great work, do it properly. Another point why Johto sucked.

    Although, I don't understand why the writers made the text of Lily's book "smuged". Because at the end of the episode, Lily couldn't read the next page of the spell, so we (the audience) we're prevented from finding out whether the spell went wrong, or whether that's how the spell actually works.
    Whatever it was, it was just a stop sign from the writers that said "do not think even further because we stopped caring about this episode anymore."

    That, and also, she was probably experimenting with this particular spell, because she said the following: "this spell has never been completed, because there was always one ingredient missing, a Pikachu's Thunderbolt".
    So in the real Pokemon world she is probably a scientist who loves experimenting...she's not really a witch. That would make it utterly ridiculous according to those standards. Er...couldn't she ask for a Thunderbolt?

    LOL, I don't think she would want to perform THAT trick for her magic show, otherwise she might have one (or more than one) unhappy customer. Hehehe. XD
    *shrugs* It still would've been entertaining to see.

    Oh, so Animagi are similar to Animorphs? Ah, I get what they are now. Thanks! ^^
    Yeah, except you've got guidelines and rules, and it's almost illegal unless you register and blah blah blah. It's a very complicated process to do it, though. The Animorphs...I don't remember how they did it, was it because they gained powers or something? Because to be an Animagus, you can learn it yourself, you don't have any prerequisites, just do it properly and don't mess up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosakai
    I wonder-if that's how the spell is supposed to work, is Pikachu the only Pokemon you can turn into? Or can you alter the ingredients (like, say, use a Chimchar's Flamethrower) to become a different Pokemon? It's something I've always thought about. Surely Pikachu isn't the only Pokemon the spell can result in? Since it was the only result we saw, it's hard to tell for certain...
    If they expanded with this, yeah you could be any Pokemon or thing.

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    LOVED IchibanCon Trainer Lisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    I would say we should talk more of Lily, and less of Francesca from DP 070. This is because Francesca is the "commercialized, modernized" definition of a magician, as a form of entertainer. Lily is not like this. She acts like a witch but under this guise I don't know what she really does.

    Callista's case is unique, because her role is like a Seer, or fortune teller-type, and it turns out she eventually has a real job as a weather reporter (so the Seer of weather forecasting via the Xatu is a guise). So if Lily was more explored, we might've found out what she really does, instead of wearing a witch's costume and wandering around with a book. Again, this was nowhere within the writers' grasp, so we can't go anywhere with it, just to compare Callista and Lily.
    Ooh, that's a very good comparison!

    I like it! ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Did Lily have any Pokemon?
    Yes! She has a Murkrow. =)

    It's the only Pokemon that we got to see though, so we don't know whether or not she has any other Pokemon....

    Oh, and I forgot to mention that Lily also used a few chants/incantations in "Hocus Pokemon". Because she cast two different spells in the episode. And she always said a little chant, before adding the last ingredient to the potion. It can be assumed that these chants are also required for Pokemon Magic.

    However, near the beginning, when Lily was explaining Pokemon Magic to Ash, Misty, and Brock, she didn't say anything about what role her chants have in the process of casting spells. Mainly, she only talked about her book and about gathering ingredients from Pokemon.


    By the way, what I find interesting about Pokemon Magic, is that you don't have to drink the potion. XD Neither Misty, nor Ash drank the potion when they voluneered for their respective spells. Instead, they were completely surrounded by a strange cloud of smoke (it was black colored for Misty, yellow colored for Ash). And after the smoke clears, that's when you see the results of the spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Again, the writers were going with that HP tangent and see if they could compete with J.K. Rowling. Because in that world, nothing goes right (when it comes to Potions, specifically). With transforming and other things however, it takes a different process for it to work right, such as mental skill and preparation. Oh, and saying the spell correctly, through pronunciation. What "Lily" was doing was a mixture of Potion-making and everything else. Quite poor for writing standards, if I say so myself. I mean, if you want to imitate a great work, do it properly. Another point why Johto sucked.
    Well, there's really no way we can be sure if that's what the writers were actually trying to do (a HP reference) with this episode.

    But if that was the case, then I guess you're right. They did screw up the storyline of "Hocus Pokemon" by not staying close enough to the way magic works in HP.

    And I agree with you that the series had bad writing back in Johto. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Johto sucked. Heck, I enjoyed all 3 seasons of Johto. And Master Quest was definitely my favorite season! It was awesome! ^_^

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    So in the real Pokemon world she is probably a scientist who loves experimenting...she's not really a witch. That would make it utterly ridiculous according to those standards. Er...couldn't she ask for a Thunderbolt?
    What do you mean, ask for a Thunderbolt? I guess if she had found a wild Pikachu, then she could've asked it to use Thunderbolt on the potion.

    However, at the beginning of the episode, Lily explains that she couldn't find a Pikachu. That was the main problem, and why she was unable to cast the spell. Also, Lily goes on to explain that there is a spell to FIND a Pikachu. But unfortunately, that spell requires a hair from a Raichu's mane - and of course, Raichu are very hard to find (in the anime).

    So yeah, Lily was very lucky, because she ran into Ash who happens to have a Pikachu. XD

    Quote Originally Posted by JB88 View Post
    Yeah, except you've got guidelines and rules, and it's almost illegal unless you register and blah blah blah. It's a very complicated process to do it, though. The Animorphs...I don't remember how they did it, was it because they gained powers or something? Because to be an Animagus, you can learn it yourself, you don't have any prerequisites, just do it properly and don't mess up.
    Yeah, the characters in Animorphs gained their powers when some kind of alien crash landed or something.

    Ah, I see. So the Animagi have a lot of rules and you have to learn it properly and stuff. I get the idea now. ^^

    Anyway, I think we're getting off topic now, with all this talk about Harry Potter and Animorphs, lol. XD

    I think it would be okay to talk about HP a little bit though, but only for comparison purposes, so that you can relate it to Lily/Pokemon Magicians.
    Last edited by Trainer Lisa; 22nd August 2008 at 09:28 PM.

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