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  1. #16
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattW
    I suspec that the fact not everyone is on the same page (or at least I'm not on the same page as everyone else...) about how the economy must be or logically is set up, is causing some of the difference in opinion on how society/societies in the Pokemon world must function.
    I suspect that you are all horribly deviating from the little that indisputably constitutes the Pokémon world.
    It almost seems as though you are oblivious to the fact that Pokémon is first and foremost the creation of the Game Freak staff; it is by all means a full-fledged world, but the designers deliberately focused on certain aspects more than others. The gap between our world and that which is depicted in the Pokémon games is not easily bridged, and perhaps it is for this reason that many liberties have been taken by other parties in translating the games to other media. Some have felt the need to reduce the Pokémon world to such a form that bears more resemblance to our world, whereas others have turned to make it solely geared at entertainment. Regrettably, very little has been done to expand on the games, rather than dismissing and inverting the world they reflect.

    Needless to say, I object to the notion that the Pokémon world is meant to be discussed in relation to our world, whereby the same principles must hold true. I find this is the wrong way to approach the topic; we are first to discuss the world as it is, and only when sufficient conclusions have been drawn can similarities to the real world be concluded. Otherwise, the discussion could never go beyond the random theorization level--fanfiction already serves that purpose quite well. My original impression was that this forum was intended to be something more.

    If to stay on the topic of the presence of a governing body, there is an interesting reference in Gold/Silver/Crystal that succinctly describes what needs to be said on the matter. A person at the Goldenrod City Station says the following:
    I'm the PRESIDENT. My dream was to build a train that is faster than any POKéMON. It really brings JOHTO much closer to KANTO.
    This alone proves that there is one governing body in power of both Kanto and Johto, if not the other regions. Moreover, the Magnet Train is an example of a project orchestrated by the government that concerns all citizens, as opposed to Pokémon trainers alone. This project is only mentioned in the games for its relevance to the storyline, being used to explain why the Magnet Train only operates at a later stage in the game. In general, the storyline revolves around the quest of a young trainer, and so the government's duties are largely irrelevant.
    It is evident that the fairly organized system in the Pokémon world is not arbitrary, but the product of law and order. We witness this practically anywhere in the games, even in the many desolate locations--there is at least a sign indicating the name of the location. However, the games focus on the trainer's quest, and any references not directly falling under this category at least add some flavor to the storyline. It remains unknown whether a proper taxation system is intact, for the simple reason that it cannot possibly be meaningful.
    Last edited by Silktree; 7th October 2005 at 09:06 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unown Lord
    I suspect that you are all horribly deviating from the little that undisputably constitutes the Pokémon world.
    I'm not sure quite how you mean this. Do you mean "indisputably" in the literal sense, that no one disputes it, or "indisputably" in the common sense, it's definitely valid and anyone who argues otherwise is probably illogical/uninformed? If the former, yes, it's true that what we're discussing goes beyond the range of what is commonly accept by everyone. However, I don't believe we're "deviating", or doing so horribly; we're theorizing, and very intelligently/constructively at that.

    It almost seems as though you are oblivious to the fact that Pokémon is first and foremost the creation of the Gamefreak staff; it is by all means a full-fledged world, but the designers deliberately focused on certain aspects more than others. The gap between our world and that which is depicted in the Pokémon games is not easily bridged, and perhaps it is for this reason that many liberties have been taken by other parties in translating the games to other media. Some have felt the need to reduce the Pokémon world to such a form that bears more resemblance to our world, whereas others have turned to make it solely geared at entertainment.
    It seems to me as though you're condescending to assume that we aren't aware of the subjective natures of the various (artistic) media through which the Pokemon world has been or is being communicated. This is the main subject of the topic "Can the Pokemon world exist?" in this forum.

    Regrettably, very little has been done to expand on the games, rather than dismissing and inverting the world they reflect.
    For some reason this phrasing (in particular the use of the word "rather") is confusing me... x.x

    Needless to say, I object to the notion that the Pokémon world is meant to be discussed in relation to our world, whereby the same principles must hold true. I find this is the wrong way to approach the topic; we are first to discuss the world as it is, and only when sufficient conclusions have been drawn can similarities to the real world be concluded. Otherwise, the discussion could never go beyond the random theorization level--fanfiction already serves that purpose quite well.
    This definitely wasn't needless to say at all.

    The Pokemon world isn't our world... it is described and analyzed as a world, though. When I, or others, describe it in relation to this world we live in, it's for sake of convenience. Everyone knows that the Pokemon world isn't our world, and most people also seem very aware that aspects of our world that are significant to its definitions and structures are not necessarily present in another world in any way. Is this what you're saying? (I may very likely be misunderstanding you.)

    Right now I will hazard the guess that you're saying that I'm approaching this incorrectly by trying to fit the Pokemon world to our world, which has an economy which influences (to some degree, though, for instance, a Marxist would say that influence is primary) the culture/society, but you think that maybe the Pokemon world doesn't have an economy, and/or that an economy wouldn't necessarily directly influence with human nature?

    Sorry if I'm completely misrepresenting you, I'm having difficulty understanding your exact argument. (Examples would help me understand, but you don't need to provide them if you feel you would communicate these ideas best by describing them in general terms; I'll just have to try harder.)

    Anyway, if that's kind of what you mean, I'd respond that using the term economy doesn't mean that I am thinking in terms of Earth. An economy is a very, very general term, and it doesn't necessarily requires money to exist. It's kind of like... how people live, and prosper, and help others to live and prosper; ways of life. And I definitely think that examining the economy is a better approach than (and excuse me again if I'm incorrectly interpreting your ideas) some relatively non-exploratory approach that would focus on the fact that Game Freak invented all of this.

    My original impression was that this forum was intended to be something more.
    What do you mean?

    If to stay on the topic of the presence of a governing body, there is an interesting reference in Gold/Silver/Crystal that succinctly describes what needs to be said on the matter. A person at the Goldenrod City Station says the following:

    I'm the PRESIDENT. My dream was to build a train that is faster than any POKéMON. It really brings JOHTO much closer to KANTO.
    This alone proves that there is one governing body in power of both Kanto and Johto, if not the other regions.
    I think I'll object to the words "this alone proves"... Singular references found in only one of the various medias that contains a version of the Pokemon world cannot be held as universally viable. This reasoning of mine ties back to what I said in one of the first paragraphs of my topic "Objective Pokemon canon":

    Quote Originally Posted by MattW
    (While areas such as poles have been referenced on occasion, none of these has been be elaborated upon or referenced thoroughly enough for me to consider it legitimate Pokemon canon rather than an area that is "created" circumstantially to satisfy a plot.)
    I'll also add to the end of that quote, "... or the flavor text writer's whim". I also remember someone in the video game telling me to pressing the A and B buttons to better fish... I'm not discounting the video game entirely, but I'm just saying it can't be anything like a primary source.

    It is evident that the fairly organized system in the Pokémon world is not arbitrary, but the product of law and order. We witness this practically anywhere in the games, even in the many desolate locations--there is at least a sign indicating the name of the location.
    Order, but law? Couldn't people take it upon themselves to cultivate their environment and work together to provide stability?

    It remains unknown whether a proper taxation system is intact, for the simple reason that it cannot possibly be meaningful.
    Aye. Though I wouldn't say it would be pointless to approach that subject; I would encourage theorization on that matter, even when it hasn't been directly addressed. (Just saying that to once again re-assert that I don't believe theorization is useless or contrary to this forum's purpose.)

  3. #18
    A black and white world Blackjack Gabbiani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unown Lord
    This alone proves that there is one governing body in power of both Kanto and Johto, if not the other regions.
    How? I always got the impression that he was the president of the transpo company, not a government-type president.

  4. #19
    Meteorologist The Big Al's Avatar
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    Besides, if Pokemon is based off of Japan (which it is), they would have a Prime Minister as the head of the government.

    I feel like Poomo tonight.

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    Let me just share with you what I think.

    You must all remember that Pokémon is a Japanese creation, so it is very likely that many of the things protrayed in the show could be a reasonable fascimile of Japan. In fact, I do recall seeing a web page which draws paralells in the Pokémon world with real places in Japan.

    The government system in the Pokémon world is likely to be very similar to or identical to the one in Japan. According to this Wikipedia article, Japan is a parliamentary government, with some also saying that it is a constitutional monarchy.

    I say that the Pokémon world is governed by a form of constitutional monarchy; if not, we couldn't be seeing kings and queens in the show (Remember the A.G. episodes in which Misty came back, and her Togepi evolved? Also, how about the members of royalty we see in the third A.G. (8th) movie?). The king or queen takes the place of and acts as a governor to each region (or prefecture), and the mayors and assembly members act under his/her command. On top of the king/queen could be an emperor/empress, together with the central government on which the regional governments depend on. The rest of the system could be almost identical to Japan's government system, with a prime minister, multi-party politics, and such. Rural areas could be demarcated with nearby large cities or grouped with other villages/towns, and governed as a single unit. The king/queen of each region could be a traditional monarchy, or it could be an elected monarchy (a rare form of government in which the king and queen is elected) (I'm leaning towards the former).

  6. #21
    Registered User Artruis's Avatar
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    I just have to question 1 other you say Unown Lord, when you say the tax system isn't important, couldn't we say that the reson for that is the main character is 10-12, (another kettle of fish).I know when I was that age I didn't talk, think or really consider tax at all.

    e.X.A.K.R. I really like your theory of a monarchy or elected monarchy, (which sounds very interesting, I didn't even know they existed) I never even contemplated that. That seems to make sense, but one thing I must ask, (and I know the games are not to be taken too seriously) is that in the games we don't see these at all, and I think that if a king and queen existed they would definetly be involved in the games, (some cliche where you are the long lost prince, or the guardian of the castle, or whatever). However I can imagine some cases where we would not see the monarch but they still exist.

    Cheers Liam

  7. #22
    Meteorologist The Big Al's Avatar
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    The emperor has no political power in Japan. His duties are purely ceremony like many monarchs in Europe.

    I feel like Poomo tonight.

  8. #23
    φιλομαθής Zhen Lin's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    He has political power in the sense that Queen Elizabeth has power... in other words, yes, his duty is ceremonial, but there's no going around it.

  9. #24
    Registered User Artruis's Avatar
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    Ah, you learn something new each day. I had the feeling it was like that, as I can't think of any modern day monarchs with actual power, and I knew there was a Japanese Prime Minister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artruis
    Ah, you learn something new each day. I had the feeling it was like that, as I can't think of any modern day monarchs with actual power, and I knew there was a Japanese Prime Minister.
    Actually, as unbelievable as it may sound, there are still monarchies that still hold real power in today's world; Brunei, Saudi Arabia and many African countries spring to mind. In Brunei, the government is headed by a sultan (which is basically a king/monarchy) and has the full executive power over his country, including emergency power, and acts as prime minister to the country's cabinet. In Saudi Arabia (the country that totally banned Pokémon, by the way), the central government institution is the Saudi monrach.

  11. #26
    φιλομαθής Zhen Lin's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    You forget the Lee Dynasty of Singapore.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhen Lin
    You forget the Lee Dynasty of Singapore.


    By the way, for those of you who doesn't know, some people have criticised Singapore as an illiberal democracy or procedural democracy; our first prime minister was Lee Kuan Yew, and the current one is his son Lee Hisen Long, hence the joke that our government is like a monarchy or something.

  13. #28
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    I've always felt they're under a police government of sorts, given that all we've seen are the various Jennys (and a guy, in the Whirl Cup eps.)
    LJ~dA~R100~YT~Twitter~Facebook~Last.fm~Tumblr~Glacidia Network


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  14. #29
    Registered User Artruis's Avatar
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    This is more interesting. I realised there would be real monarchs left, but I just didn't know where. Lol on the Singapore guys, kinda similar to Kim Jung Il, who took over from his dad, (I think) of course one is democracy and the other dictatorship.

    When you say police government, do you mean one run by the police? Those are like military governments, very strict and authoritarian, which Pokemon doesn't seem like at all

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artruis
    This is more interesting. I realised there would be real monarchs left, but I just didn't know where. Lol on the Singapore guys, kinda similar to Kim Jung Il, who took over from his dad, (I think) of course one is democracy and the other dictatorship.

    When you say police government, do you mean one run by the police? Those are like military governments, very strict and authoritarian, which Pokemon doesn't seem like at all
    Yelp, Singapore is definitely a democracy.

    As for the police government theory, I think it means that the state does not have a true government, instead being run by the police and acting as the government. In this case, it means that the government is similar to a military government, but with the police instead. However, I find this unlikely, because if this was the case, then there shouldn't be criminal gangs running around. Team Rocket, Aqua, and Magma wouldn't even exist in the first place.

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