Thread: Giratina: banished?

Originally Posted by Outrage

And you said Platinum Pokedex entry, and I responded with Platinum evidence.

The anime also had creatures of space and time fight with each other because of territorial disputes, even though they're two sides of the same coin and spawned from the same creature.

Really, I don't think you have an argument here if you're going to call on anime to disprove what the games say.

LOL. you really like that phrase "you really dont have an argument here".... ive seen it on numerous ocassions and you've said it to me too

no need to be a troll face...( thats smugleaf's job) anyway i completely agree with YOUR argument( the sixth post) and it shouldve ended there...giratina was bound to the distorion world and it doesnt run freely

So you're saying Giratina can freely walk, because he can get to the Pokémon World by the Turnback Cave...

Wait I have a theory!
It must have been a translator's reverie. Someone could confirm what do the Japanese Pokédex entries say?

Because in the game Cynthia only says Giratina "lurks" in the Distortion World, not that it has been banished for there.
Perhaps Arceus created time and Dialga to take care of it, it created space and Palkia to take care of it, it created a reverse world that would keep the normal world stand and Giratina to take care of it: no banishments.

Anime =/= Games

Seriously, only in anime canon is Giratina able to travel freely between worlds. In the games, Giratina is most likely bound to the Distortion World as the Pokedex states.

The way I see it, Arceus created the three beings to each govern their respective elements. Dialga would control time, Palkia would control space, and Giratina would embody antimatter. Maybe Arceus intended for Giratina to be the strongest of the trio and created another world for Giratina to balance out the real world. At this point Giratina could travel freely, but it became overwhelmed with the power it couldn't handle and went on an unstoppable rampage. Angering Arceus, they fought, Giratina was beaten, and was banished to the Distortion World for the safety of the universe. But this time it could not escape and had to govern antimatter from the Distortion World while silently gazing upon the real world until the events of Platinum.

Maybe Giratina's banishment is loosly the same as Cyrus's banishment. Giratina can leave, that's game canon (remember, in DP, it's sitting there in the ancient building). There's also nothing restricting Cyrus from leaving other than his own stubbornness, given that you can come and go as you like.

TLDR, Giratina was the subject of Arceus saying "go to your room and think about what you did".

Now, the question becomes what did Giratina DO, but I suppose that's for another post.

If he was really banished, then when you're walking it in HG/S, wouldn't people start screaming in terror?

Originally Posted by Agrostophile

LOL. you really like that phrase "you really dont have an argument here".... ive seen it on numerous ocassions and you've said it to me too

no need to be a troll face...( thats smugleaf's job) anyway i completely agree with YOUR argument( the sixth post) and it shouldve ended there...giratina was bound to the distorion world and it doesnt run freely

When you don't have a valid argument, then I point it out in hopes that you can provide a better one. If you believe that I am trolling, then report the post.

Originally Posted by rafaelluik

So you're saying Giratina can freely walk, because he can get to the Pokémon World by the Turnback Cave...

Wait I have a theory!
It must have been a translator's reverie. Someone could confirm what do the Japanese Pokédex entries say?

Because in the game Cynthia only says Giratina "lurks" in the Distortion World, not that it has been banished for there.
Perhaps Arceus created time and Dialga to take care of it, it created space and Palkia to take care of it, it created a reverse world that would keep the normal world stand and Giratina to take care of it: no banishments.

So it has to be the dex entry and not Cynthia's dialogue then? As far as I remember, when the Japanese games were being covered, they said banished.

As for definitions of lurk:

lurk

3. to exist unperceived or unsuspected.

— vb

2. to be present in an unobtrusive way; go unnoticed

The definitions I have here basically sums up what Cynthia means and Giratina's basic story. The distortion world and the normal world are two sides of the same coin. Giratina exists, but due to the barriers between the dimensions, it isn't perceived.

I have this history/theory by readinng carnavale library, pokedexes, and sites.

Arceus makes three beings. Giratina was god of antimatter. it had more power then its other siblings. It soon got to think that it was the strongest and became violent. arceus found a oppurtunity and sealed giratina in reverse world. arceus let go giratina, but it did not come out of DS thinking it was still sealed. when it felt the fabric of space time(i call the legend as "sinnoh space-time"), it tried to get out and suceeded. it came out and snatched cyrus. it had known about the expiry of the banishment a little before and had made a portal in turnback cave, but it did not come out of it everytime because living in DS is now a habit. i mean 1000+ years!!

Originally Posted by #Daisuke#

it could not escape and had to govern antimatter from the Distortion World while silently gazing upon the real world until the events of Platinum.

It's on the Turnback Cave on DP. So, maybe you'll say that Sendoff Spring map information is "Beneath the lake's surface is a cave where dimensions are distorted." and that's the way Giratina could live there, but see Arceus created everything so it created the Sendoff Spring that way and didn't thought Giratina could escape by there? I mean, Giratina wasn't banished.

The fact that Giratina's banishment wasn't really touched upon in Platinum makes me wonder why some fans consider that game's story to be superb. By that I mean that neither Cynthia nor Cyrus seemed very interested in Giratina itself, to the point where the hole in its background wasn't even presented as any sort of real mystery (in complete contrast to the enigma of the Unown in Crystal and HGSS).

Originally Posted by Silktree

The fact that Giratina's banishment wasn't really touched upon in Platinum makes me wonder why some fans consider that game's story to be superb. By that I mean that neither Cynthia nor Cyrus seemed very interested in Giratina itself, to the point where the hole in its background wasn't even presented as any sort of real mystery (in complete contrast to the enigma of the Unown in Crystal and HGSS).

Something can be superb even if it leaves some threads hanging. Such threads are usually meaningless for the actual conflict anyway, as is Giratina's banishment in Platinum's plot. What does Cyrus care that Giratina was banished? It doesn't furthers his ideals whether he found out or not. It could lead to Arceus, but that's such a huge stretch. Cynthia clearly wonders about Giratina's purpose, which doesn't includes its banishment. Clearly, it's stuff only fans care about.

For Pokémon's history of obtuse, straightforward plots, Platinum still stands out, being second only to Black/White. The important mythos was completely explained and dwelled upon. Who's to say that whoever wrote Giratina's entry didn't pick a wrong word and classification of Giratina's status? It's believed Giratina was banished, but for the writer, "banished" could mean the actual word, or merely pointing out the fact it was concealed on a world opposite of ours. From a particular point of view, Giratina "doesn't belongs here" and was "imprisoned". That doesn't makes it a fact.

Ultimately, whether Pokémon games explain everything or not, which is a ridiculous expectation in and of itself, that doesn't detracts from their plots' quality. A plot is a mix of characters, backstory and storytelling of the events that do happen. Even if some unimportant threads are left hanging in either area, if all else is done right, it's still superb, which Platinum is.

Originally Posted by rafaelluik

It's on the Turnback Cave on DP. So, maybe you'll say that Sendoff Spring map information is "Beneath the lake's surface is a cave where dimensions are distorted." and that's the way Giratina could live there, but see Arceus created everything so it created the Sendoff Spring that way and didn't thought Giratina could escape by there? I mean, Giratina wasn't banished.

It's logical enough to think Arceus needed to create a connection point with the Distortion World to keep balance or something of the sort. You can't tell what would or wouldn't happen if contact between both worlds was completely impossible.

That aside, the very nature of the Turnback Cave would make it stand as a special dungeon that behaves differently for both outsiders and Giratina itself. Dimensions are distorted in it, which is why the rooms are random. There's no actual pattern. Rooms always change and no door leads to the same room twice. It's also important to notice two things:

• If you enter any door in Giratina's room, it sends you back to the entrance. That also happened a lot to me whenever I went to the entrance at the bottom of most rooms.
• When you come out of the Distortion World in Platinum, you appear outside of the cave, in the Sendoff Spring entrance.

The behavior of Turnback Cave indicates that outsiders can try to find the link to the Distortion World by "fooling" the location or taking advantage of it, but the cave "knows" they don't belong there, so it always sends them back outside when they take a wrong step, or when they come out of the Distortion World itself. Who says it's not the opposite for Giratina?

The Turnback Cave can distinguish what's Giratina and what isn't, assuming the cave itself was created by Arceus. It sends strangers back to their world. As for Giratina, it's allowed to get out of the Distortion World and dwell in the cave (Hence why it technically is never found in the same room), but it will never, ever find a way outside the cave. The dimensional maze must be impossible for Giratina to figure out. Not to mention, its movility is hampered while in its Altered Forme. If it loses its path, Giratina would end back in the Distortion World, as well. It's a complex system that keeps Giratina out (Presumably even outsiders. Don't forget this is a videogame), and also keeps both worlds connected to keep balance.

So yeah. The Turnback Cave actually would keep Giratina outside the real world. It's unable to actually come in contact with our dimension, and can only enter the bridge between the Distortion World and the real world, which is the Cave itself. In many ways, the Turnback Cave is a "prison" for Giratina, and that's probably where the whole "banishment" deal was inferred by Professors, so to say.

This is just my own view on the matter, as well, but it's not farfetched at all.

Then you have DPA where Kaisei found the Distortion World by accident when he wandered into a cave. There wasn't a building around it like in the games, and Giratina can leave--the climactic battle is in a forest clearing. They didn't address banishment in it, but it's still the sole inhabitant of the Distortion World.

after this theory, i have come to an point.

Its the pokedex after all, who says the word "Banishment"... Dude, MAN created it, Well, OAK created it. All Machines have one fault at least. Just think = Giratina is a god of animatter, more importantly, its a legendary pokemon. must have just asked arceus for its own world/to rule over one of the worlds of balance. it lived in it, because it wanted to. It could freely walk between the worlds. it is only one Important Fact: It Did not Want To Come Out..

I hope i cleared the Matter.

Originally Posted by Shadow Raikou

after this theory, i have come to an point.

Its the pokedex after all, who says the word "Banishment"... Dude, MAN created it, Well, OAK created it. All Machines have one fault at least. Just think = Giratina is a god of animatter, more importantly, its a legendary pokemon. must have just asked arceus for its own world/to rule over one of the worlds of balance. it lived in it, because it wanted to. It could freely walk between the worlds. it is only one Important Fact: It Did not Want To Come Out..

I hope i cleared the Matter.

Game Freak said they tried to base it off of antimatter, doesn't mean that in the game it is antimatter or that its the god of it. Antimatter is basically the opposite of matter, and Giratina lives in a world opposite to the normal one. That's the connection they were probably trying to convey. The word anti-matter doesn't appear anywhere in the games themseves, and if it was, then how could Cynthia and the Protagonist enter the Distortion World without blowing themselves up?

How does your theory actually clear anything up? You say the dex entries were created by man. Yeah, technically in-canon they are. In-canon they're also based on prominent canon-legends surrounding Giratina. How can your fanon explanation definitively clear up the matter? What makes yours anymore viable than other people's explanations?

Outrage, i only mean to say that the dex entries can be incorrect. The word Banish is only in a dex entry! Cynthia herself did not say that.

Originally Posted by Shadow Raikou

Outrage, i only mean to say that the dex entries can be incorrect. The word Banish is only in a dex entry! Cynthia herself did not say that.

So, we're going with the word of an up-and-coming researcher of myths versus the word of a world-renowned expert on Pokemon? How can you say Cynthia is any more correct?

What you keep forgetting is what Cynthia says is her interpretation of the myths. What makes her interpretation any more valid than a direct transcription of the original mythology in dex entry form? What if the ancient people who wrote that myth down didn't actually tell the truth?

If we're going with Cynthia's interpretation, she doesn't even believe that those things were gods. Yet at the same time, a different researcher of myths believes that Arceus is the embodiment of the original spirit which he believes is in both humans and Pokemon.