The "final" thought about the Arceus/Mew "problem".

Page 1 of 19 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 275
Like Tree14Likes

Thread: The "final" thought about the Arceus/Mew "problem".

  1. #1
    Master of Pokémon-ghosts KingMario's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    43

    Default The "final" thought about the Arceus/Mew "problem".

    When Arceus first were leaked, fans seemingly were confused it, because it seemingly got the role as a god Mew had in the three earlier generations - especially as that wasn't retconned.

    After having read a bit about both however, I've noticed that it's just a BIG missunderstand amongst fans, that kind of missunderstand nobody realises. Kinda.

    The thing is, the game, which is the MAIN CANON, have just mentioned Mew being the ancestor of all Pokémon, while Arceus created the universe. It's never been claimed that it was Mew who created the universe, neither that Arceus created all the Pokémon (except the dragon and lake trios, of course).
    Hunter Blade likes this.
    "When my two favorite forums not can be acceded, it results in plenty of templates created by me on Bulbapedia."

  2. #2
    Serious Pokemon Fan
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Well since it created the universe, it fathered everything else. Without the universe, there would be no earth, etc.

  3. #3
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,171
    Blog Entries
    951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingMario View Post
    When Arceus first were leaked, fans seemingly were confused it, because it seemingly got the role as a god Mew had in the three earlier generations - especially as that wasn't retconned.

    After having read a bit about both however, I've noticed that it's just a BIG missunderstand amongst fans, that kind of missunderstand nobody realises. Kinda.

    The thing is, the game, which is the MAIN CANON, have just mentioned Mew being the ancestor of all Pokémon, while Arceus created the universe. It's never been claimed that it was Mew who created the universe, neither that Arceus created all the Pokémon (except the dragon and lake trios, of course).
    Well you seem to miss the whole problem here. Mew is the ancestor of all Pokémon. Arceus is a Pokémon. Arceus created the universe, therefore, one can say that Mew was the first link in creating the universe. But wait, Arceus's legend says all there was before the universe was a cosmic egg, and that it gave life to itself.....

    Of course, it is a big misunderstanding that even you don't seem to understand, and a crucial piece of information is always goes unmentioned.

    First of all, Mew is called the Ancestor of all pokémon, but for what reason? According to the Third Generation Pokédex and its predescessors that Mew's DNA contains the genetic code of all Pokémon. Ignoring that we ourselves actually share around 75% of our genes with dafodils(or was it dandelions), this is the reason why the Pokémon scientists call Mew the "ancestor of all Pokémon".

    With that in mind, I ask you, how realistic is the statement "all". Taking this statement literally, along with forgettign why Mew is called that is what leads to confusion. Is it really possible for scientists to have gathered DNA evidence from Grodon or Kyogre? Or what about such Pokemon like Giratina who lived in another dimension, or the intergalactic space traveller Deoxys? Sure they may have had those samples afterwards, but likely not at the time of writing.

    So really, even you had a false misconception that Mew was a "god" and it is this misconception that leads to this non-existant plot hole within the games. Last time I checked, nothing was ever made a "god" because they contained the DNA of something, they would have been called a common ancestor, but not a god. Mew itself was never reffered to as a god in the games or any other canon as far as I know of, and it is only the fans who gave it this unfitting title. Arceus, and its incarnations however have been explicitly reffered to as deities in the Pokédex, but the Pokédex itself makes sure to mention how they were gods in Sinnoh mythology, not claiming that anyone follows this "Arceus" religion in modern day Sinnoh. Infact, the Japanese dex entry of Bronzong had it mentioned as a deity of Harvest to select groups of ancient peoples because they believed it brought rain.

    Long story short:

    Mew is science
    Arceus is religion

    Not saying that they can't mix, but I am saying that Mew was never, nor will it ever be a god.

    Also using such a general term like "nobody" rather than saying "most people" seems kind of absurd, especially with the title "the "final" thought..." implying that you were the first person to see such a flaw in said arguement and I find it kind of insulting really, that I'd be grouped into the "Mew is god, no Arceus is" type of people.

  4. #4
    XXXXXXXXXX Dragon Char's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Tower of Mastery
    Posts
    4,816
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I do believe the real confusion is that somehow, some people equated the legendaries to deities, and that is not entirely true. Some of them are, but others are legends for entirely different reasons. This is why Mewtwo and Deoxys are still considered legends even though they are not natural organisms. They have the power of legends, and that makes them as important as the rest of them.
    Last edited by Dragon Char; 21st September 2008 at 12:44 PM.
    Step into the Fairy circle

  5. #5
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,171
    Blog Entries
    951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptile726 View Post
    I do believe the real confusion is that somehow, some people equated the legendaries to deities, and that is not entirely true. Some of them are, but others are legends for entirely different reasons. This is why Mewtwo and Deoxys are still considered legends even though they are not natural organisms. They have the power of legends, and that makes them as important as the rest of them.
    This

    In the Japanese version, there are three distinct terms used to refer to those Pokémon which are collectively called legendary in English. One, 伝説のポケモン (densetsu no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of legend), refers to those which are featured prominently in legends, such as Groudon and Kyogre. The second, 幻のポケモン (maboroshi no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of illusions, translated as mirage Pokémon in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl), refers to those so rarely seen that some question their very existence, such as Mew and Lugia; an alternative definition restricts it only to Pokémon not available in normal gameplay. The third is 神話のポケモン (shinwa no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of myth), which is a term applied to some of the legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh.

  6. #6
    Master of Pokémon-ghosts KingMario's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage DD View Post
    Well you seem to miss the whole problem here. Mew is the ancestor of all Pokémon. Arceus is a Pokémon. Arceus created the universe, therefore, one can say that Mew was the first link in creating the universe. But wait, Arceus's legend says all there was before the universe was a cosmic egg, and that it gave life to itself.....
    And THAT is so explainable! After all, both Arceus AND Mew are Pokémon in OUR definition after all, so who created Arceus? Well, after a bit more thinking, everyone may notice that it's not completly explained what else Arceus have done. Everything we know yet is that he 'just' created the legends that created will, emotion, will, darkness, space, and time. But then, what about the life itself? Planets? Nature? And then, not only on the Pokémon world that WE know, but also all others? The other Legendary Pokémon, of course, may have been created by him aswell, or whatever created HIM, which would include some that created life forms, too.
    "When my two favorite forums not can be acceded, it results in plenty of templates created by me on Bulbapedia."

  7. #7
    yandere=awesome Yamato-san's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage DD View Post
    This

    In the Japanese version, there are three distinct terms used to refer to those Pokémon which are collectively called legendary in English. One, 伝説のポケモン (densetsu no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of legend), refers to those which are featured prominently in legends, such as Groudon and Kyogre. The second, 幻のポケモン (maboroshi no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of illusions, translated as mirage Pokémon in Pokémon Diamond and Pearl), refers to those so rarely seen that some question their very existence, such as Mew and Lugia; an alternative definition restricts it only to Pokémon not available in normal gameplay. The third is 神話のポケモン (shinwa no Pokémon, lit. Pokémon of myth), which is a term applied to some of the legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh.
    actually, I've been to Japanese sites, and I can confirm that their fandom tends to just group everything as "legendary" as much as we do. Also, relating legendary Pokemon to deities might've began with the Japanese versions of the first two movies, in which the legendary birds are referred to as "gods" (there was also Mewtwo questioningly asking if Mew was a god, not to mention its worship in South American cultures, but I don't think that could count much). Before then, I wouldn't be surprised if people merely saw them as regular Pokemon that are merely stronger and rarer than most others (and this was back when you could only get a single starter or Eievui, among others, per game and breeding was non-existent, so their one-of-a-kind status was hardly exclusive). The games certainly didn't make them out to be anything more (hell, only Mewtwo had a backstory, and all the birds' Dex entries seem to talk about is where they're likely to appear).

    Yup, classes again. I'm gonna be at this for a while.

  8. #8
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,171
    Blog Entries
    951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingMario View Post
    And THAT is so explainable! After all, both Arceus AND Mew are Pokémon in OUR definition after all, so who created Arceus? Well, after a bit more thinking, everyone may notice that it's not completly explained what else Arceus have done. Everything we know yet is that he 'just' created the legends that created will, emotion, will, darkness, space, and time. But then, what about the life itself? Planets? Nature? And then, not only on the Pokémon world that WE know, but also all others? The other Legendary Pokémon, of course, may have been created by him aswell, or whatever created HIM, which would include some that created life forms, too.
    Well that's just a reflection of the existential question 'What was before the begining"

    In order to know what Arceus has done, one must know the legend it is based off of. This whole problem stems from the misconception that Mew is a god. This is what creates the non-existant paradox that is Mew and Arceus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato-san View Post
    . Also, relating legendary Pokemon to deities might've began with the Japanese versions of the first two movies, in which the legendary birds are referred to as "gods" (there was also Mewtwo questioningly asking if Mew was a god, not to mention its worship in South American cultures, but I don't think that could count much).
    And how does this notion arise in the english, or any non-japanese fandom? I can understand why the legendary birds might be seen as deities, its not as if humans themselves don't have animal-based gods.

    As for Mew, if it was worshiped as a god, it would likely be worshiped because of its shapeshifting abilities and not because ancient people somehow figured out what DNA was and analysed not only Mew's but the DNA of all local Pokémon. THe end result is still that Mew is science and Arceus is religion.

    Besides, would I really trust the Anime much about this? I mean they are the ones that had time and space fighting each other as if they were rival beings rather than two sides of the same coin.

    The big question is though, do these terms arise soley from the fandom, or from the games themselves. The article gives me the impression that these terms are used by the games.

    Personally, I only started seeing legendaries as gods in Johto when the legendary Pokémon themselves seemed to have actually been worshiped by people (atleast Ecruteak)
    Last edited by The Outrage; 21st September 2008 at 02:15 PM.

  9. #9
    A black and white world Blackjack Gabbiani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Nowhere special
    Posts
    17,517
    Blog Entries
    273

    Default

    I suppose this may also depend on how you define "god". Is creation enough, or does Arceus have to also have omnipotence/omnipresence/some degree of control?

    And as for the question of Mew's origins, it's entirely possible that, since we already know something (Arceus) came from nothing, such a thing could happen again.

    Another thing to remember is that you're assuming all these legends are true. They may not be--the dex makes stuff up left and right. What are the chances of these being any more true than Banette being a posessed doll?

  10. #10
    yandere=awesome Yamato-san's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outrage DD View Post
    And how does this notion arise in the english, or any non-japanese fandom? I can understand why the legendary birds might be seen as deities, its not as if humans themselves don't have animal-based gods.
    probably because there were summary translations of the second movie (with the birds correctly being translated as "gods") around on English sites long before the movie was localized. Also, discredit the anime all you want, I'm just pointing out where in the franchise, as a whole, this entire "god" thing (and subsequently the fandom's interpretation of it) may've begun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackjack Palazzo View Post
    And as for the question of Mew's origins, it's entirely possible that, since we already know something (Arceus) came from nothing, such a thing could happen again.
    seconded. People never realize and are too quick to assume that Arceus completely contradicted Mew supposedly being the first Pokemon.

    Another thing to remember is that you're assuming all these legends are true. They may not be--the dex makes stuff up left and right. What are the chances of these being any more true than Banette being a posessed doll?
    well, it's not just the dex... it's pretty clear from the game's storyline that Dialga and Palkia have pretty dire effects on the universe (then again, the games made it seem as though just Shin'ou was in danger and not all of existence as we know it... I kinda fail to see how time/space could create just a localized catastrophe much in the same vein as Kyogre and Groudon's battle).

    Yup, classes again. I'm gonna be at this for a while.

  11. #11
    The village trap. PanicAttack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The UK.
    Posts
    636
    Blog Entries
    19

    Default

    Arceus hatched from an egg, right? Who layed the egg? We dunno. Okay, Mew can't breed but who is to say that it can't breed in extraordinary circumstances? Such as, Genesis-esque circumstances.

    tl;dr, Mew hatched Arceus's egg.
    no moar sig 4 u D=<

  12. #12
    A black and white world Blackjack Gabbiani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Nowhere special
    Posts
    17,517
    Blog Entries
    273

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato-san View Post
    well, it's not just the dex... it's pretty clear from the game's storyline that Dialga and Palkia have pretty dire effects on the universe (then again, the games made it seem as though just Shin'ou was in danger and not all of existence as we know it... I kinda fail to see how time/space could create just a localized catastrophe much in the same vein as Kyogre and Groudon's battle).
    But just because some of them are true doesn't make all of them true is what I mean.

    Although--going off the anime here anyway--the D/P battle in the 10th movie only put one city in peril by cutting it off from the rest of the world.


    And Nebula, nothing's saying Mew can't breed. Heck, it's the one Legendary we know from the games *can*. It's just you, the player, can't get it to.

  13. #13
    The village trap. PanicAttack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The UK.
    Posts
    636
    Blog Entries
    19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackjack Palazzo View Post
    And Nebula, nothing's saying Mew can't breed. Heck, it's the one Legendary we know from the games *can*. It's just you, the player, can't get it to.
    Precisely. Under normal circumstances (namely Mew + Ditto + Daycare), it can't. In extremely rare circumstances, it might.
    no moar sig 4 u D=<

  14. #14
    Registered User Shinx3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The sun? Thats the hottest place on earth!
    Posts
    5,063

    Default

    I'd say that mew is the ansestor of all pokemon. Mew is said to have the DNA of every single Pokémon right? So it still could be the ansestor of all pokemon and it is said that mew was born when goudron, kyogre and rayquaza were born after arceus falls into a deep sleep when the pokemon world was created.

    Yes when arceus was born it created the basis for existance with the lake and dragon trios. It is the first, but mew could be the "gene pool Pokemon" for every pokemon, the life creator, it prsesses the genetics that could create any pokemon and use any move etc..

    Arceus = The existance creator, creates existance
    Mew = The genetic pokemon that posses the genetics that make up any pokemon and is the foundation of all pokemon life (all 492 pokemon and possibly more in the future)maybejust thoughts

  15. #15
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,171
    Blog Entries
    951

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato-san View Post
    well, it's not just the dex... it's pretty clear from the game's storyline that Dialga and Palkia have pretty dire effects on the universe (then again, the games made it seem as though just Shin'ou was in danger and not all of existence as we know it... I kinda fail to see how time/space could create just a localized catastrophe much in the same vein as Kyogre and Groudon's battle).
    Yeah, the Sinnoh thing was weird, probably just didn't want tor eference the whole world or something.

    As for Grodon and Kyogre, it showed that their powers were spreading over time. In Emerald, the effects of their battle took awhile before it reached the Sky pillar, so its likely it would have spread eventually.

    Arceus hatched from an egg, right? Who layed the egg?
    Again, that's the whole existential "What was before the begining?" thing, basically which came first, the chicken or the egg. According to Pokemon its the egg :P

Page 1 of 19 12311 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •