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Thread: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

  1. #46
    黒い王様 Archaic's Avatar Webmaster
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Sadly, yours might be the only ship that has achieved this thusfar.
    神出鬼没 - shin shutsu ki botsu

  2. #47
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Why some of you can't understand that point of view depends on where you sit? I'd bet most people wpuld consider something as a hint if it concerned ship they like yet they disprove it when it can help an opposite ship.

    and there is still one tihng which amazes me - why do you guys read threads and pages about shippings you don't like? This sounds like a masochism, really. I stay away from discussion of shippings I am just not interested in. Let just all shippers write what they want in their threads. It's their duty to care about standards of discussion. If you read see that those standards are low - it isn't your problem, is it? It's their interest to discuss the ship calmly and objectively 'cause in this way they can encourage more people to start supporting a given ship.
    帰りたくなったよ!!

  3. #48
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    Why some of you can't understand that point of view depends on where you sit? I'd bet most people wpuld consider something as a hint if it concerned ship they like yet they disprove it when it can help an opposite ship.
    I'm one of the ones who don't. If it's something a friend would do, regardless of the pair, I don't see how it can be used as a hint towards the pairing. I'm even like that with ships I do favor...like for instance, some people consider Kasumi/Misty's crying after Satoshi/Ash awakens in Tower of Terror a hint, whereas I don't due to the context of what was happening, and the fact that a person crying in relief can also be done by close friends.

  4. #49
    黒い王様 Archaic's Avatar Webmaster
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    Why some of you can't understand that point of view depends on where you sit? I'd bet most people wpuld consider something as a hint if it concerned ship they like yet they disprove it when it can help an opposite ship.
    Like Wendy above, I have to disagree with this. I'm similar to her in that while I do recognize the value of evidence that shows friendship (because no relationship is going to start without it), and of a pattern of evidence showing a friendship that's developing over time, I also recognize that there's a gigantic difference between friendship and love. While I was seen as something of a figurehead amongst the Pokeshippers of old, a lot of the Gaki's despised me, because I would repeatedly strike down what they claimed as evidence for PokeShipping when I felt that it was just indefensible (the classic example of course being Misty's Song).

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    and there is still one tihng which amazes me - why do you guys read threads and pages about shippings you don't like? This sounds like a masochism, really. I stay away from discussion of shippings I am just not interested in. Let just all shippers write what they want in their threads.
    I read the threads of ships I don't necessarily believe may be true because I may still think they're cute, and enjoy well written fanfiction or well drawn fanart for them. I read the threads of ships I don't like and aren't interested in, because I may sometimes have my opinions towards a ship swayed by new arguements, new writers, and new artists. Instead of locking myself in a tiny box, I challenge myself to continuously expand my horizons.

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    It's their duty to care about standards of discussion. If you read see that those standards are low - it isn't your problem, is it? It's their interest to discuss the ship calmly and objectively 'cause in this way they can encourage more people to start supporting a given ship.
    Before I reply to this, I just want to state for the record once again that this is only something that concerns those making statements about evidence, not those who simply follow ships for fun, because they're cute, etc.

    In my experience (shipping in the online Pokemon fandom since 1999), it harms shipping collectively when any of its major ships (currently, that would be Poke, Rocket, Advance, Contest & Pearl) aren't objective about things in any way when it comes to how they're presenting evidence of their ship. How one ships acts reflects on us all, reducing the opinion of the fandom of shipping as a whole. Poor standards also have a tendency to propagate and multiply once they take root, with other ships starting to follow suit because they want to bulk out their list of hints, justifying it because "everyone else is doing it", which only makes the situation worse.

    The old name for the shipping forum was "Shippers Anonymous Unite". Unless shippers are united like this, around these kinds of issues, we quickly fall apart.
    神出鬼没 - shin shutsu ki botsu

  5. #50
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
    Like Wendy above, I have to disagree with this. I'm similar to her in that while I do recognize the value of evidence that shows friendship (because no relationship is going to start without it), and of a pattern of evidence showing a friendship that's developing over time, I also recognize that there's a gigantic difference between friendship and love. While I was seen as something of a figurehead amongst the Pokeshippers of old, a lot of the Gaki's despised me, because I would repeatedly strike down what they claimed as evidence for PokeShipping when I felt that it was just indefensible (the classic example of course being Misty's Song).
    These are the obvious things which can't be considered as hints. But the great majority of that stuff is debatable which means
    shippers would describe it by their own point of view. Believe me: If Ash and Misty high-fived I think that many pokeshippers would see it as a hint or at least cute, friendly gesture what could possibly turn out into something more in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
    I read the threads of ships I don't necessarily believe may be true because I may still think they're cute, and enjoy well written fanfiction or well drawn fanart for them. I read the threads of ships I don't like and aren't interested in, because I may sometimes have my opinions towards a ship swayed by new arguements, new writers, and new artists. Instead of locking myself in a tiny box, I challenge myself to continuously expand my horizons.
    Cmon. No one is going to change an attitude towards given ship if they see an awesome fanart drawn by new, young Rembrandt.
    Neither...or: Let's assume that in a new episode there is a moment which can be considered as a new hint. After watching you form an opinion and it wouldn't change if you read even a well-written, convincing post about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Archaic View Post
    In my experience (shipping in the online Pokemon fandom since 1999), it harms shipping collectively when any of its major ships (currently, that would be Poke, Rocket, Advance, Contest & Pearl) aren't objective about things in any way when it comes to how they're presenting evidence of their ship. How one ships acts reflects on us all, reducing the opinion of the fandom of shipping as a whole. Poor standards also have a tendency to propagate and multiply once they take root, with other ships starting to follow suit because they want to bulk out their list of hints, justifying it because "everyone else is doing it", which only makes the situation worse.
    The problem is, when you try to discuss something objevtively, there always turn up people who can possibly change a thread into a battlefield. The best thing to do in such situations is not to let provoke you and look after yourself. But like I said before, I didn't notice so many bashing post lately.

    Writing this post took me way too long...recovering from hangover is hard. Man, vodka sucks.
    帰りたくなったよ!!

  6. #51
    黒い王様 Archaic's Avatar Webmaster
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    These are the obvious things which can't be considered as hints. But the great majority of that stuff is debatable which means
    shippers would describe it by their own point of view. Believe me: If Ash and Misty high-fived I think that many pokeshippers would see it as a hint or at least cute, friendly gesture what could possibly turn out into something more in the future.
    Yes, they exist. We call these people Gaki's. If unable to show them the error of their ways, we would make pains to separate them from us in the minds of the general fandom, just like we did before.
    Though to clarify...there's nothing wrong with saying something is a cute friendly gesture. But showing friendship, while valuable to a ship, is not evidence the ship will come true. It would not be right to lump in people who take things to show friendship with the gaki's, because all shipping debaters do this...we just realize how insignificant friendship stuff really is to the ship in the long run, because with main character ships especially, of course they're going to be close friends (or else they wouldn't be travelling together).

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    Cmon. No one is going to change an attitude towards given ship if they see an awesome fanart drawn by new, young Rembrandt.
    I'm living proof that it happens. I used to hate Advance and Pearl shipping with a passion. Now, due to good fanworks I've seen, I've found myself able to enjoy them, even though I don't believe they'll happen in the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    Neither...or: Let's assume that in a new episode there is a moment which can be considered as a new hint. After watching you form an opinion and it wouldn't change if you read even a well-written, convincing post about it.
    Except that...
    1. I was a GymShipper. I became a PokeShipper after being convinced in a debate way back in 1999
    2. I've personally witness many such "conversions" over the years in shipping debates
    3. It's a brain bug to think that people must believe either A or B. There's a lot of shades of grey in between peoples different opinions, and while you might not completely change your angle, often you will modify your views on things after discussions open you up to different opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by podin View Post
    The problem is, when you try to discuss something objevtively, there always turn up people who can possibly change a thread into a battlefield. The best thing to do in such situations is not to let provoke you and look after yourself.
    Which goes back to what I've said before. If you don't believe the ship will actually happen, don't provoke debates by making claims about evidence. And if you do believe the ship will eventually happen, be prepared to actually have discussions with others who don't share your opinions, or don't go parading them out there.
    神出鬼没 - shin shutsu ki botsu

  7. #52
    100% Tsundere BMGF Anime Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    compiling hint lists
    ^ This I've done on page 277 of the Pokeshipping thread

  8. #53
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Archaic, what did you think about that blog post from the former anime director who said that Pokeshipping had be placed on the backburner because it would take away from what Pokemon was about? Hence why Johto had very little shipping at all.

    Do you take direct quotes from anime writing staff as proof as to whether a ship is intended or not?

  9. #54
    Cheers to the Freeze Luna Tiger's Avatar Bulbapedia Staff
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott85 View Post
    Archaic, what did you think about that blog post from the former anime director who said that Pokeshipping had be placed on the backburner because it would take away from what Pokemon was about? Hence why Johto had very little shipping at all.

    Do you take direct quotes from anime writing staff as proof as to whether a ship is intended or not?
    Saying they had to "put it on the back burner" (your words or his, regardless; only if you have the right context of his words) would indicate it was once on their minds, and a direction they wanted to go in. Making it initially intended.

    That doesn't make it canon, or inevitable canon, however. Directions change the longer you keep making a story.
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  10. #55
    All of the bara Yoshi-san's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tiger View Post
    Saying they had to "put it on the back burner" (your words or his, regardless; only if you have the right context of his words) would indicate it was once on their minds, and a direction they wanted to go in. Making it initially intended.

    That doesn't make it canon, or inevitable canon, however. Directions change the longer you keep making a story.
    I agree. Lately a lot of people are saying if the FORMER writer says something it MUST be true. That's just stupid.

  11. #56
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshi-san View Post
    I agree. Lately a lot of people are saying if the FORMER writer says something it MUST be true. That's just stupid.
    Wait, are you saying the former anime director/writer is not important? What was going through his head while writing the original series IS important, he may have nothing to do with DP, but what he says still made sense for the original seasons.

    And as far as I've seen, most of the anime writing staff has hardly changed over the shows run. Some people have come and gone, but they still probably get to have input.

  12. #57
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    Default Re: A short rant on shipping evidence standards

    The thing is, romantic pairings in Pokémon are really very simple. So when it comes to debating the writer's intention in canon, the few good debaters tend to find themselves on the same side. Where they have to go over the same arguments over and over again because the other side won't take any of it in.

    But here's the perspective to the whole thing. What do the side who can see how the writers think get out of it? Some mutual blushing between May and Drew. That's all. Romance only matters for filler characters and making Brock suffer.

    So just have fun with pairing everyone together.

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