The Shipping Debate Thread

[pokemonsquared]

I may be the only person here to defend pearl or negai but here goes nothing.

For pearl I don't really see it as a big brother/little sister (that's more advance turf) but more like a boy and girl best friend. While the Hi 5s in and of themselves would not be real shipping hints its a sign of closeness between the two no other girl could claim and the fact that the characters are all 10 kind of shoots down kissing or romantic hugging etc. I also get the feeling that while Ash Misty and Brock was a unit. Ash May Max and Brock was one unit. And Ash Iris and Cilan were all one unit its hard to think of one without the others. But with the DP group I honestly felt that asides from the doc brock filler Dawn and Ash could honestly just travel together alone with no issues unlike With misty where they would fight constantly and would probably turn ugly if not for brock or may where Max and Brock were kind of needed as connectors joining the group. The two also connected on an emotional level with Ash's concern for her after the solaceon loss and Dawns little performance after lake acuity shows that they cared for each other's wellbeing and happiness. A few other hints would be the cheerleading outfit Ash's Increased interest in contests which is not something I bet either of them would do for just anyone.

Another interesting aspect of pearl would be their startlingly similar personalities. Yes there is the dress up and the boneheaded stupidity ash can often show. But they have similar outlooks on life and always tries to put their best foot forward. Irl relationships operate much the same way ie opposites rare attract. I also see Lyra and her involvement as pearlsbipping evidence. She saw the attraction between the two and then when dawn had a rather suspiciously quick denial Lyra moved in on Ash trying to set her up with him. Eventually she realized the relationship was too strong for an outsider to break and tried to model her and kory's relationship on theirs(this coming from a true shipper on deck). For that matter last thing I'll say on pearl is that Ash seems to care about dawn's opinion of him a lot. When iris calls him a kid he just shrugs it off when dawn does it he feels devastated and betrayed.

Now for Negai shipping I can see it happening as well and for more reasons than just because Iris is there. From the first episode Iris saw something in Ash besides just pity or scorn as she could have just pointed out the directions and sent him on his merry way. Then she actually helped support him at the first gym despite constantly belittling him which I consider a way for her to cover up her own insecurities rather than of a genuine desire to hurt. Iris chose to follow him not out of vengeance for a bike or to spend more time with Pikachu but she sincerely wants to travel for months with asttanger she barely knew without an ulterior motive. Iris also while rightfully berates ash for his stupidity still recognizes his moments of clarity and never moves into physical abuse. She also cheers for ash the hardest of any pokegirl with the roxie battle and while the last MC pokemon ship lagomorph failed oshawottxemolga looks far more likely as both parties showed Intrst in one another and are open to romance. Cilan has even noticed there is something between the two. While this ship is lacking slightly In quantity Dur to BW still running it isn't lacking In quality plus ash crossdressed for her.

As for why I support these over poke and advanced. Ash has never shown any real attraction towards misty's crush which wasn't really that great in the first place and was a case of being the first more than anything. Plus 4kids blew it out of porportion. Until the last episode ash thought of misty as a friend who followed him for bike money until she ran away In tears. Their interaction ended there with no real references later on. Eventually I got the feeling that she got over him I. Chronicles spending a lot of time with Tracy and ash just moved on holding the lure to remind himself of the good memories rather than misty herself. As for may I see it as a student teacher for more than the others as even at the kanto GF her style is still taken completely from ash. Plus drew's existence shoots down advanced worse than any other competing ship for the other top 3. I'm not that big a contest shipper but I do see the attraction and pair thn together.

Tl;Dr don't discount pearl and negai just because you already have an OTP. While you may not consider then strong enough or already have an OTP they exist and are just as valid as any other het ash ship.

[DarkDreams]

Starting out, I'll be defending Advanceshipping and addressing either Pearl, Contest, or Pokeshipping. I have no comment on Negaishipping as I haven't watched any episodes of BW. I'm not the type to put forward stuff, but rather counter arguements.

For pearl I don't really see it as a big brother/little sister (that's more advance turf) but more like a boy and girl best friend. While the Hi 5s in and of themselves would not be real shipping hints its a sign of closeness between the two no other girl could claim and the fact that the characters are all 10 kind of shoots down kissing or romantic hugging etc.

The relationship between Ash and May is more commonly a 'student-teacher' dynamic that seems to step into 'sempai-kohai' without the formalities for one. While high fives are indeed a sign of closeness, for now we see nothing but friendship conveyed through them.

I also get the feeling that while Ash Misty and Brock was a unit. Ash May Max and Brock was one unit. And Ash Iris and Cilan were all one unit its hard to think of one without the others. But with the DP group I honestly felt that asides from the doc brock filler Dawn and Ash could honestly just travel together alone with no issues unlike With misty where they would fight constantly and would probably turn ugly if not for brock or may where Max and Brock were kind of needed as connectors joining the group.

Ash and May were originally meant to travel alone together, Max just invited himself in. In that episode both Ash and May were shocked and looked a bit disappointed when he did invite himself. They even asked Norman if he could come, perhaps hoping for him to say no. But he said yes. It wasn't even a good relationship at first, since May and Max bickered alone and Ash had to be stuck in the middle. Brock also appeared out of no where and invited himself (thought admittedly his presence was liked) I don't feel that either Max or Brock were 'connectors' but rather people just added on to an already strong group (we have Ash and May confronting team Aqua and Magma before meeting Max/Brock, Ash and May going to gyms and such, they were fine as they were.)

The two also connected on an emotional level with Ash's concern for her after the solaceon loss and Dawns little performance after lake acuity shows that they cared for each other's wellbeing and happiness. A few other hints would be the cheerleading outfit Ash's Increased interest in contests which is not something I bet either of them would do for just anyone.

I say that's only in Dawn's nature to do such things. Dawn isn't the type to let her friends stay sad, right? Ash connects on everyone on an emotional level, including contests and such. We see this with May before hand where Ash blames himself for her contest losts, cheers her up personally, goes to single save her from loss from TR and so on. I think Ash had an increased interest in contests ever since May. He did compete with her for the ribbon, and always commented on the beauty of her pokemon/contests itself.

I also see Lyra and her involvement as pearlsbipping evidence. She saw the attraction between the two and then when dawn had a rather suspiciously quick denial Lyra moved in on Ash trying to set her up with him. Eventually she realized the relationship was too strong for an outsider to break and tried to model her and kory's relationship on theirs(this coming from a true shipper on deck). For that matter last thing I'll say on pearl is that Ash seems to care about dawn's opinion of him a lot. When iris calls him a kid he just shrugs it off when dawn does it he feels devastated and betrayed.

From when I've seen, that episode was just Dawn going 'Nope we're not in a relationship' and Lyra just quickly drops it. In the Original and AG series we had the same thing, where both girls had to deny their feelings for Ash. I say Dawn had the most composed denial out of all of them. I haven't seen that episode but maybe he just used to Iris calling him a kid and having another friend call him that annoys him.

A bold statement? Not really. None of what you've cited there is even vaguely evidence of romantic interest in any way.

The Bicker the Better (AG072): Two friends get over an argument. No romantic interest evident.

May and Ash have their movements, and speech mirrored. There may be no romance involved, but there is tension and development between the two. By tension, I mean the way they deny Oscar and Andy is akin to children denying their crushes. But this is resolved in a tame way where they both tried to admit their faults. This only shows a deepening relationship between Ash and May. Oscar and Andy also harass (if that's the right term) TR in a similar fashion. James gets Jessie angry, so on. They make up by linking arms and smiling. Pardon me if i'm wrong, but RocketShipping is considered one of the more 'canon' ships out there, right? If their reactions mirror Ash and May's slightly, wouldn't there be at least a little meaning to it?

[Flame Mistress]

Eh, I'm bored, so why the hell not.

First of all, Archaic, I do agree with the other users that you are making quite a bold statement there. Sure, I won't deny that there have been some solid hints to Misty having a crush on Ash, but I've failed to notice any solid hints of PokéShipping from Ash. Not to mention, I think Ash would've been way too dense back in the Kanto saga to notice any of Misty's hints, which, despite what you may think, ruins a pretty good chance of a relationship between them ever forming.

Another thing is, shipping isn't all about the facts, because if it was, everyone would probably a one-sided PokéShipper. Every Ash x Main Girl ship has some very good hints in my opinion, but obviously not everyone sees them as such. They're all subjective, and everyone has their opinions on whether a hint really is a hint or not. So really, Archaic, just because you don't see any hints in any of the other ships, doesn't mean that they're not there. It's only you and other PokéShippers who don't see them. As I said, I see hints in all Ash x Main Girl ships, just more so in one ship than the others.

Now, I'll say this right now: I'm a PearlShipper. I just see all the cute little interactions between them, for example Ash looking a bit smitten with Dawn at the end of the Giratina movie and Ash inviting Dawn for a dance in another episode, and feel that there must be at least something between them. There's also the fact that, as someone mentioned, even if Brock wasn't there in the group, Ash and Dawn would've gotten along perfectly well, without any real conflicts (cooking notwithstanding, of course). I feel that the same is with May, and even Iris to some extent, but the relationship between Ash and Dawn always stuck out to me. No matter how much I liked him, Brock always felt like a needless third wheel for me throughout the Sinnoh saga, even when I was watching it at the age of 8. There's also the fact that Ash's 'feelings' for Dawn are still there even in BW2; Cilan and Iris seem to be aware of who Dawn is, but the very next episode Ash has to explain to them who Brock is (that's a bit mean of you, Ash, to never mention the guy who'd been cooking for you for the last four seasons =/).

...Okay, rant over.

[Archaic]

They make up by linking arms and smiling. Pardon me if i'm wrong, but RocketShipping is considered one of the more 'canon' ships out there, right? If their reactions mirror Ash and May's slightly, wouldn't there be at least a little meaning to it?

No. This kind of logic is what has led to people claiming that mere signs of friendship are somehow evidence of their ship....simply because one other ship started claiming it and they didn't want to lose in the number of hints, even though it totally trashes the quality of their hint list.

First of all, Archaic, I do agree with the other users that you are making quite a bold statement there. Sure, I won't deny that there have been some solid hints to Misty having a crush on Ash, but I've failed to notice any solid hints of PokéShipping from Ash. Not to mention, I think Ash would've been way too dense back in the Kanto saga to notice any of Misty's hints, which, despite what you may think, ruins a pretty good chance of a relationship between them ever forming.

First of all Flame Mistress, while there are far fewer hints from Ash's side, they most certainly do exist. Many of the strongest hints for PokéShipping are ones which involve reactions from both characters. The classic one in Pokéball Peril for instance.

Secondly, I'd like to introduce you to @Kasumi;. Not the character, but my wife. A person who I shared a close friendship for many years with, while I was too dense to realise she had a crush on me. After I eventually did realise it (by her taking the first step and outright telling me), our relationship quickly grew, and...well, we are married now. So despite what you may think, a male being dense that a girl likes him does not ruin the chances of a relationship ever forming, especially when the girl is the kind of person to speak her mind.

Another thing is, shipping isn't all about the facts, because if it was, everyone would probably a one-sided PokéShipper. Every Ash x Main Girl ship has some very good hints in my opinion, but obviously not everyone sees them as such. They're all subjective, and everyone has their opinions on whether a hint really is a hint or not. So really, Archaic, just because you don't see any hints in any of the other ships, doesn't mean that they're not there. It's only you and other PokéShippers who don't see them. As I said, I see hints in all Ash x Main Girl ships, just more so in one ship than the others.

And this is where you leave the thread.

Shipping isn't all about the facts, but shipping debating most certainly is. The purpose of shipping debating is not to decide which ship is subjectively better, but to determine which ships are actually more likely to happen. So while it is true that there are many differing interpretations of shipping hints, that doesn't mean that all interpretations are factually valid or of equal worth in a debate. The only factually valid interpretation of a hint is that which was intended by the creators. If the intention of a scene is for the viewers to see a character have a crush on another, then that is the only correct interpretation, and the only interpretation that matters.

Now, I'll say this right now: I'm a PearlShipper. I just see all the cute little interactions between them, for example Ash looking a bit smitten with Dawn at the end of the Giratina movie and Ash inviting Dawn for a dance in another episode, and feel that there must be at least something between them. There's also the fact that, as someone mentioned, even if Brock wasn't there in the group, Ash and Dawn would've gotten along perfectly well, without any real conflicts (cooking notwithstanding, of course). I feel that the same is with May, and even Iris to some extent, but the relationship between Ash and Dawn always stuck out to me. No matter how much I liked him, Brock always felt like a needless third wheel for me throughout the Sinnoh saga, even when I was watching it at the age of 8. There's also the fact that Ash's 'feelings' for Dawn are still there even in BW2; Cilan and Iris seem to be aware of who Dawn is, but the very next episode Ash has to explain to them who Brock is (that's a bit mean of you, Ash, to never mention the guy who'd been cooking for you for the last four seasons =/).

Okay, so you've cited several scenes here for which you think the correct interpretation is yours? So...prove it. Obviously none of us will ever prove these things 100% without the creators actually coming out and saying what was intended, but you can most certainly do things like quote lines and present screenshots which you think back up your interpretation of the scene. Don't just say that something happened. Show us that how you're describing it is how it actually happened.

[Anonymous Fang]

thats a very bold statement which i disagree with.Have you seen the bicker the better? thats a dream for advance shipping plus drew has certain qualties which imply that drew and may might not work or even be completly impossible and as for no idication between ash and dawn or ash and iris are you kidding me?dawn traveled with ash long after she had competed in the grand festival and even dreessed as cheerleader.Iris practically stalked ash until he let her travel with them.Note these are just the first ones that come to mind.Now i admit the hints were more blatent with misty but that could simply be because misty herself is a lot less subtle.

The Bicker the Better (AG072): Two friends get over an argument. No romantic interest evident.

So within that logic, a reasonably decent amount of Pokeshipping is eliminated. Before I show you my hint list for AS, can you show me yours for PoS?

[Archaic]

So within that logic, a reasonably decent amount of Pokeshipping is eliminated. Before I show you my hint list for AS, can you show me yours for PoS?

More like a huge amount of every single ship involving the main characters of any arc to date.

For those who don't know their Pokémon Shipping history (and I can't blame you, since this is more than a decade ago now), the PokéShippers once had what was effectively a civil war over this point, back in 2000-2001. In the end, those who tried to claim simple friendship as hints (often the exact same people who tried to claim Misty's Song as proof) were cast out by us and labelled as "GakiShippers".

I don't have an up to date list for PokéShipping, mainly because I haven't had time for serious shipping debates since 2002. There's been some things which have happened since then (mostly meta stuff) that would need to be taken into consideration in putting together a proper list, and I don't really have the time to do so right now. But if any of the PokéShippers of today would like to put one together (something better than what's currently on Bulbapedia, which has far too much useless fluff on there), I'd gladly help pruning it down.

[Anikasnow6]

Okay, I'll just be quick.
I'm an AdvanceShipper. I like it because something just "clicked" when I read the Bulbapedia article. I also don't like pairings where the ships are "thrown in my face" (I won't mention any).
I also like AdvanceShipping because I like to see the mature side of Ash.

[JewelsVerne]

For those who don't know their Pokémon Shipping history (and I can't blame you, since this is more than a decade ago now), the PokéShippers once had what was effectively a civil war over this point, back in 2000-2001. In the end, those who tried to claim simple friendship as hints (often the exact same people who tried to claim Misty's Song as proof) were cast out by us and labelled as "GakiShippers".

Wait...a civil war when you were both reaching the same conclusion?

[Archaic]

For those who don't know their Pokémon Shipping history (and I can't blame you, since this is more than a decade ago now), the PokéShippers once had what was effectively a civil war over this point, back in 2000-2001. In the end, those who tried to claim simple friendship as hints (often the exact same people who tried to claim Misty's Song as proof) were cast out by us and labelled as "GakiShippers".

Wait...a civil war when you were both reaching the same conclusion?

Yup. We basically felt that the "Gaki's" were giving shippers in general, and PokéShippers specifically, a bad name. Because they tended to be some of the loudest and most vocal shippers, non-shippers had developed a view of shippers as people to used the most flimsy, trumped up evidence to support their conclusions. "Going to war" on them was our way of trying to make shipping respectable again. And it worked, for a time, at least with regards to shippers on major forums. Then Gen III hit, an entirely new wave of Gaki-types came in with the first AdvanceShippers, and things just went downhill again.

[Anikasnow6]

Wow...a Civil War...
You know, that's a bit confusing. (But it wasn't exactly a war because it wasn't too bloody--Okay, never mind).
Should we...get back on topic?
Not that I want to. I'd rather listen to history lectures. I'm a terrible debater.