The Shipping Debate Thread

[Araragi Hakase]

We've been asked several times now when there would be a shipping debate thread. After discussing it, we've decided to test it out because hey, it could be fun! However, there are some rules we are going to enforce strictly.

1. This is the only debate thread we are going to have. Just because this one exists does not mean you are free to make your own "Ship vs Ship" threads. If you want to debate ships, this is the thread to do it in.
2. Don't bash other ships or other shippers. Plain and simple.
3. There is a difference between attacking the argument and the person. Use canon evidence to support your claims rather than just saying one ship is better than another because of personal preferences. Heterosexual, yaoi, yuri and even pokemon ships are all welcome here.
4. Others are going to disagree with you. Accept that fact before participating. That being said, do NOT post in the respective shipping threads trying to gather others to come help support you. It's not a contest, it's a debate.
5. If you see something that is flaming/baiting, do not reply, REPORT THE POST so that the mods can take care of it.
6. This should go without saying, but just to be safe, all other Shippers' Paradise rules apply here as well.

Just be civil with one another and debate your ships. Let's have fun with this!

@Insanish Danish; and I will be watching this thread VERY closely, and will not be hesitant to thread ban those that cause problems. Not following the rules will result in infractions. If at any point we feel that the thread is getting out of hand, it will be locked.

So, to start us off. Which Ash ship do you feel has the most evidence?

[thedarkfiddler12]

I think Pokeshipping has the most evidence

[Araragi Hakase]

I think Pokeshipping has the most evidence

Why? Please support your claims with evidence so it can evolve discussion~

[thedarkfiddler12]

Okay..Misty meets her match episode with Rudy,Ash,and Misty show a lot of Pokeshipping evidence. Misty refuses to marry or stay with Rudy after being proposed by him then she cheers Ash when he battled Rudy in gym battle. After Rudy gives Ash his badge, he gives Misty some flowers, accepting her decision to stay with Ash. More importantly, he says, "I hope you know you're a very lucky guy, Ash." Ash cluelessly replies, "Lucky? What do you mean?" Rudy laughs and says, "You'll see some day." Ash just frowns in confusion.

[Anonymous Fang]

Okay..Misty meets her match episode with Rudy,Ash,and Misty show a lot of Pokeshipping evidence. Misty refuses to marry or stay with Rudy after being proposed by him then she cheers Ash when he battled Rudy in gym battle. After Rudy gives Ash his badge, he gives Misty some flowers, accepting her decision to stay with Ash. More importantly, he says, "I hope you know you're a very lucky guy, Ash." Ash cluelessly replies, "Lucky? What do you mean?" Rudy laughs and says, "You'll see some day." Ash just frowns in confusion.

I fail to see how that reveals any mutuality of the sort.

Which Ash ship do you feel has the most evidence?

Pokeshipping. Mainly because Misty's crush was obvious, whilst any feelings from May, Dawn, or Iris were dimmed down a bit.

[Mielikki]

Well, I think that evidence is very subjectiive and depends on the point of view. So if I had to choose from Ash + the main girl ships, I think I would say Poké, but I cannot say any good evidence, it is just about my feels about it and some kind of childhood nostalgia. It may be also just because no hints from Advance-,Pearl- or Negai- have convinced me (mainly because I use to see more evidence with other ships with those girls).

If we don´t take the main girls, I think Angie and Annabel (whatever are this ships called) have had some nice evidence, mostly from the girls side, but Ash quickly developed quite a strong friendship with them, so maybe there could be the point.

I don´t like ship Ash with guys, though I cannot unsee some tension between him and some of his rivals, but I still think it is just Ash-like way of rivality, not the shipping evidence.

In conclusion, I think Ash is not very shipable character and there will be he and Pikachu forever.
So, Pikashipping has the most evidence

[Aloasa]

first of all sorry for the constant wanting to post a ship vs ship debate i just saw this one,
now that thats out of the way
pokeshipping: nostalgia writting all over the place put i never like it.
pearlshipping: good but i always see dawn as ash little sister
contestshipping: lots of proof and speculation because neither of them has made a return to the anime
advanceshipping: i got to say I LOVE THIS ONE is the one that started my shipping interest and it comes from my favorite anime series ( and most nostalgic btw) the proof is interesting and there has been proof for 3/4 series of the anime
so yeah i love ash/may

[Archaic]

Seems like this is more like a US Presidential style debate (where everyone says stuff without responding to others), rather than an actual debate. ;p Before I have a little ramble, this might be a good opportunity for me to link back to A short rant on shipping evidence standards that I posted back in early 2010. I think the points I made there are as relevant today as they were when I posted that, and when those same points have been raised time and time again in the history of shipping in this fandom. Namely...don't conflate feelings of friendship, respect, admiration, or rivalry with feelings of love. At absolute best, it's evidence that characters have a relationship from which a deeper relationship might eventually grow over time...but without evidence of any actual such growth, they're pretty worthless.

I've been a supporter of PokéShipping since the very early days. There were several occasions where it was pretty blatantly hinted at, to a degree that no ship has had since. Granted, whatever plans they may have had there were totally blown out of the water when they realized that they wouldn't be ending the anime with the Kanto league and the 1st movie, but the foundations they laid are still there for them to return to, if they ever so wished. Not that I expect them to do so until such point that they'd be ready to end the series, mind you.

Specifically as a counter to other potential ships involving Satoshi...
1. We can rule out immediately any ship with someone who's not a main travelling companion. While this can and has happened in other shounen manga before, that happens according to several well established tropes. Namely, the female love interest should show blatant interest in a relationship with the character, and must become a recurring character on the basis of having this interest. While you might argue that Melody satisfies the first of those conditions, she doesn't satisfy the second.
2. Homosexual ships are right out as well. The reasoning for this is primarily meta. Namely, that they know it would cause some problems in some big markets for them if they "turned" Ash into a homosexual (them stating he always was from the start wouldn't change the fact that people had the image of him being straight in their minds the whole time). They've also really laid no groundwork whatsoever for a homosexual orientation in terms of his personality. Homosexual characters in shounen franchises always fit within certain defined tropes, and as I've said, Pokémon is not a franchise which breaks those tropes in any way.
3. Ash's traveling companions, apart from (PokéShippers would argue) Misty, simply haven't shown any blatant interest in him. May is far more plausibly shipped with Drew based on the events of AG187, and there is nothing in Ash's relationships with Dawn or Iris to suggest anything beyond friendship, respect and admiration.

[kronos]

Ash's traveling companions, apart from (PokéShippers would argue) Misty, simply haven't shown any blatant interest in him. May is far more plausibly shipped with Drew based on the events of AG187, and there is nothing in Ash's relationships with Dawn or Iris to suggest anything beyond friendship, respect and admiration.

thats a very bold statement which i disagree with.Have you seen the bicker the better? thats a dream for advance shipping plus drew has certain qualties which imply that drew and may might not work or even be completly impossible and as for no idication between ash and dawn or ash and iris are you kidding me?dawn traveled with ash long after she had competed in the grand festival and even dreessed as cheerleader.Iris practically stalked ash until he let her travel with them.Note these are just the first ones that come to mind.Now i admit the hints were more blatent with misty but that could simply be because misty herself is a lot less subtle.

[Anonymous Fang]

Ash's traveling companions, apart from (PokéShippers would argue) Misty, simply haven't shown any blatant interest in him. May is far more plausibly shipped with Drew based on the events of AG187, and there is nothing in Ash's relationships with Dawn or Iris to suggest anything beyond friendship, respect and admiration.

thats a very bold statement which i disagree with.Have you seen the bicker the better? thats a dream for advance shipping plus drew has certain qualties which imply that drew and may might not work or even be completly impossible and as for no idication between ash and dawn or ash and iris are you kidding me?dawn traveled with ash long after she had competed in the grand festival and even dreessed as cheerleader.Iris practically stalked ash until he let her travel with them.Note these are just the first ones that come to mind.Now i admit the hints were more blatent with misty but that could simply be because misty herself is a lot less subtle.

As an Advanceshipper, I didn't find TBTB to be the shippiest thing ever. I mean, their reaction to being called a couple was disappointing for the shipping, despite being somewhat similar to Ash and Misty's reaction to being called a couple by Team Rocket. The only thing I find shippy about that episode is really how they were bickering so much, and had an impressive make up.

For Dawn, I kind of thought that was more like a little sister thing, tbh.

[Archaic]

thats a very bold statement which i disagree with.Have you seen the bicker the better? thats a dream for advance shipping plus drew has certain qualties which imply that drew and may might not work or even be completly impossible and as for no idication between ash and dawn or ash and iris are you kidding me?dawn traveled with ash long after she had competed in the grand festival and even dreessed as cheerleader.Iris practically stalked ash until he let her travel with them.Note these are just the first ones that come to mind.Now i admit the hints were more blatent with misty but that could simply be because misty herself is a lot less subtle.

A bold statement? Not really. None of what you've cited there is even vaguely evidence of romantic interest in any way.

The Bicker the Better (AG072): Two friends get over an argument. No romantic interest evident.
Dawn: A girl who loves dressing up (as a coordinator, it's practically her life), deciding to get dressed up in a cheering uniform to cheer on her friend, is no evidence of romantic interest. That she continued travelling with him after the grand festival is about as much evidence of her having a romantic interest in him as Brock traveling with Ash for so long would be evidence he's interested that way in Ash. ie. No evidence at all.
Iris: As I recall, Iris's interest was largely stirred up initially by Pikachu, which she'd never seen before in real life. There doesn't appear to have been anything about her interest which would imply romantic interest, and certainly there's been no development of anything along those lines between her and Ash since.

[Likeitornot.]

Hey, I'm just going to stick my ore in here, and ask a question revolving around the current topic at hand, if you don't mind.
When you say "the most evidence", would the shippings with not as large as a pile of hints, but the hints there have a superb quality to them qualify, as well as the ones with a ton of hints branching out over many episodes? As in, does the quality compensate the quantity here, and vice versa?

Just curious.

[Archaic]

Hey, I'm just going to stick my ore in here, and ask a question revolving around the current topic at hand, if you don't mind.
When you say "the most evidence", would the shippings with not as large as a pile of hints, but the hints there have a superb quality to them qualify, as well as the ones with a ton of hints branching out over many episodes? As in, does the quality compensate the quantity here, and vice versa?

Just curious.

When I personally talk about "the most evidence", I really mean "the most quality evidence". In my view, far too many shippers fill their hints lists with things that really aren't evidence of potential romantic interest at all. Demonstrating that characters are friends is important, but when you're talking any serious main character ship, it's pretty much a given that they're going to be friends to begin with. If you can't demonstrate something that goes beyond the bounds of close friendship, you've got nothing.

[Anonymous Fang]

Hey, I'm just going to stick my ore in here, and ask a question revolving around the current topic at hand, if you don't mind.
When you say "the most evidence", would the shippings with not as large as a pile of hints, but the hints there have a superb quality to them qualify, as well as the ones with a ton of hints branching out over many episodes? As in, does the quality compensate the quantity here, and vice versa?

Just curious.

When I personally talk about "the most evidence", I really mean "the most quality evidence". In my view, far too many shippers fill their hints lists with things that really aren't evidence of potential romantic interest at all. Demonstrating that characters are friends is important, but when you're talking any serious main character ship, it's pretty much a given that they're going to be friends to begin with. If you can't demonstrate something that goes beyond the bounds of close friendship, you've got nothing.

According to that, than I'd have to say that Pokeshipping has enough evidence just because Misty's crush was canon. So yes, Pokeshipping has the most evidence and is the most plausible Ash shipping. Anyway, the second Ash ship with "the most evidence" is, in my opinion, Advanceshipping. There were several moments in A.G that hinted at a possible relationship between Ash and May, with quality hints (Shipping:AdvanceShipping - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia). Keep in mind I do not see all of the hints as hints.

[Archaic]

There were several moments in A.G that hinted at a possible relationship between Ash and May, with quality hints (Shipping:AdvanceShipping - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia). Keep in mind I do not see all of the hints as hints.

Can you clarify which ones you think are quality hints then? It's been a long time since I saw AG, but I don't recall anything from that era I'd consider quality. I'd have to go back and check the episodes.