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  1. #91
    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by V Faction View Post
    The "money-making" world? Man, I really wish you could talk to game developers face-to-face and see if any of them are working on a project for the sole purpose of "making-money", let alone holding back on games in order to milk popularity. Not just Game Freak either, but folks all over at places like Bioware, Bethesda, id, Repawn Entertainment, Bungie, Blizzard, and Valve have a passion for making games that go beyond seeking monetary value. They aren't these dastardly puppet masters you claim they are.
    Optimism is great, but everyone has a price.

    So you are saying that it took them seven years to realize they could completely reboot the visual style and rework much of the gameplay, adding new stuff and tweaking the rest? Really? It took them that long to start to really do something new with game when they've had this hardware since 2004? If that is the case, the developers aren't as smart as I gave them credit for, especially since not fully utilizing the DS's capabilities has been a common criticism since D/P's release. Not to mention, I'm sure the developers play other DS games, and there are plenty of games on the DS that utilize the DS better than Game Freak has with Pokemon. Did they just not connect the obvious dots ("If they can do it, we can too.")?

    I think they are shrewd. I think they know exactly what they are doing, from top to bottom. When you work for a big company, be it in video games or the film industry or the music industry, you typically have to let go of some creative freedoms. In this case, I'd say holding back features to extend the life of the series is something they had to do.

    And my disappointment with recent installments of Pokemon comes from the games being stale. It comes from them not changing enough. They've tweaked the formula a little but the game is essentially the same it was when it debuted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Black & White; first impressions / YeOldeJacob
    It seems Game Freak/Nintendo are finally ready to innovate again. Fortunately, this is coming at a time when the series is in desperate need of a bit of a shake-up. They've spent the last two generations tweaking the details to further perfection (be it the introduction of abilities and natures, the refinement of the EV/IV systems, the testing of the DS touch-screen waters, etc.), but left the core framework of the game nearly untouched. This made for an enjoyable, but ultimately hollow experience. Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald and Diamond, Pearl and Platinum were games that seemed to be building-blocks for better games. Maybe Black & White are those games.
    Last edited by Nelly; 27th August 2010 at 07:52 PM.

  2. #92
    Froakin' Hilarious. V Faction's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob View Post
    Optimism is great, but everyone has a price.

    So you are saying that it took them seven years to realize they could completely reboot the visual style and rework much of the gameplay, adding new stuff and tweaking the rest? Really? It took them that long to start to really do something new with game when they've had this hardware since 2004? If that is the case, the developers aren't as smart as I gave them credit for, especially since not fully utilizing the DS's capabilities has been a common criticism since D/P's release. Not to mention, I'm sure the developers play other DS games, and there are plenty of games on the DS who utilize the DS better than Game Freak has with Pokemon. Did they just not connect the obvious dots ("If they can do it, we can too.")?
    If it's bugging you that much, all I can say is that games change and grow at different rates. People also get better with the tech involved. Something that wasn't forseeably possible at the start of a system cycle could be realized to fruition nearer towards the end. And each developer has their own vision for what a game needs. Yet against all odds, this clashes with what you see as the "right" way. Sounds like there's a disconnect going on.

    And my disappointment with recent installments of Pokemon comes from the games being stale. It comes from them not changing enough. They've tweaked the formula a little but the game is essentially the same it was when it debuted.
    I've joked about this in the past, but what if they made the next iteration of Pokemon games into a Street Figher-esque 2-D fighting game. Maybe that would be enough to stop people from complaining about staleness.
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  3. #93
    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by V Faction View Post
    If it's bugging you that much, all I can say is that games change and grow at different rates. People also get better with the tech involved. Something that wasn't forseeably possible at the start of a system cycle could be realized to fruition nearer towards the end. And each developer has their own vision for what a game needs. Yet against all odds, this clashes with what you see as the "right" way. Sounds like there's a disconnect going on.
    Yeah, but there is no reason that it would take more than half a decade other than if they were holding back. Like I said, other games (even launch titles, like Super Mario 64 DS) utilized the DS better than Game Freak has. When Nintendo launched the DS with a Nintendo 64 port, there is no way Game Freak didn't think they could do something similar with Pokemon. I don't mind them holding back features, but it is a bit frustrating that it took them seven years to bring innovation to the forefront. I only hope the wait is worth it.

    I've joked about this in the past, but what if they made the next iteration of Pokemon games into a Street Figher-esque 2-D fighting game. Maybe that would be enough to stop people from complaining about staleness.
    You just cited two videos in which Adam Sessler talks about the positives of changing a game. And Pokemon does need to have a shake-up. I mean, you can only bank on the tried-and-true formula for so long. This is why we saw FLUDD in Super Mario Sunshine and the "gravity based platforming" of Galaxy, and the refinement of that in Galaxy 2. And now we are seeing a one-to-one motion Zelda on its way. All of Nintendo's biggest franchises are moving forward and Pokemon has essentially remained stagnant. This doesn't mean their more recent games are bad, just not the games they could have been. They are finally trying something different, and that is a good thing.

  4. #94
    Froakin' Hilarious. V Faction's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob View Post
    Yeah, but there is no reason that it would take more than half a decade other than if they were holding back. Like I said, other games (even launch titles, like Super Mario 64 DS) utilized the DS better than Game Freak has. When Nintendo launched the DS with a Nintendo 64 port, there is no way Game Freak didn't think they could do something similar with Pokemon. I don't mind them holding back features, but it is a bit frustrating that it took them seven years to bring innovation to the forefront. I only hope the wait is worth it.
    Again, you don't know. It may seems obvious, but it's not. Everything takes time. The original Pokemon games took around 6 years to make if I recall correctly. It's been 4 years since Diamond and Pearl were released, the longest cycle in the series yet. I find it presumptious to say that what they do behind the scenes at their own pace isn't up to some standard by which you yourself have set. And to top it off, your definition of innovation and Game Freak's definition will be, or I should say are, completely different. Which means the final product can either not live up to your expectations no matter what or blow you away with something that never occured to you. It seems like a lose-lose situation for Game Freak.

    You just cited two videos in which Adam Sessler talks about the positives of changing a game. And Pokemon does need to have a shake-up. I mean, you can only bank on the tried-and-true formula for so long. This is why we saw FLUDD in Super Mario Sunshine and the "gravity based platforming" of Galaxy, and the refinement of that in Galaxy 2. And now we are seeing a one-to-one motion Zelda on its way. All of Nintendo's biggest franchises are moving forward and Pokemon has essentially remained stagnant. This doesn't mean their more recent games are bad, just not the games they could have been. They are finally trying something different, and that is a good thing.
    Yeah, I posted those videos as a means to convey my feelings on the way in which some fans express their zealotry about change in games. Often, it's either complaints about the changes not being enough like the previous game, about how there wasn't enough changes to justify another game, or about the changes being too distant from what the original game was about. There's some respect in seeing a developer do what they want without succombing to the pressure of the fans.

    But anyway, the whole bit about the fighting game is trying to point out that simply wanting "change" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's the irony of it all. A fighting game would be different and bring about new innovations to the Pokemon series, right? It's not tried-and-true, it's completely fresh, and it offers a unique combat style through which to control your Pokemon dynmically and directly, something people have wanted for years. They wouldn't even have to get rid of EXP. But how many people would see that as something good? Would you?
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    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by V Faction View Post
    But anyway, the whole bit about the fighting game is trying to point out that simply wanting "change" isn't necessarily a good thing. It's the irony of it all. A fighting game would be different and bring about new innovations to the Pokemon series, right? It's not tried-and-true, it's completely fresh, and it offers a unique combat style through which to control your Pokemon dynmically and directly, something people have wanted for years. They wouldn't even have to get rid of EXP. But how many people would see that as something good? Would you?
    It isn't about completely changing the core of the game. It is about manipulating that tried-and-true formula into something fresh and new, while still presenting something that is the Pokemon everyone knows. It's like when a great bands puts out 4 straight albums (and 2 remastered greatest hits), and they all sound the same. The first album was raw and garagey and a bit clumsy, but it had a certain charm. By the time their second album rolled around, they have more money to work with and were able to refine everything good about their first album and eliminate everything bad. But about the time they got to their third and fourth albums it had become tedious. Sure, they are the same band, and they are making the same music that made me love them, but why am I paying $12 for every album if it all sounds the same?

    So what do they do? Go into the recording studio and release something with a new sound. A new attitude. The songwriting is still there and so are the musicians and the vocalist that made the band so good. They are still singing about what they were singing about a decade and a half ago, but they've matured, spun their old perspectives upon their head and created something unique. It isn't going to please everyone, but it is better than a 5th album of the same damn thing.

    That is essentially what I'm looking for B/W to do.

  6. #96
    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeJacob View Post
    So what do they do? Go into the recording studio and release something with a new sound. A new attitude. The songwriting is still there and so are the musicians and the vocalist that made the band so good. They are still singing about what they were singing about a decade and a half ago, but they've matured, spun their old perspectives upon their head and created something unique. It isn't going to please everyone, but it is better than a 5th album of the same damn thing.
    But they're not the same damn thing. Each generation had radical differences.
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Since this is still a thread about the differences between an older generation and the new (seemingly done right) changes done to the next generation, I figured we could do well to talk about exactly what people are anticipating on a realistic level. Changes to story? To mechanics? To online capabilities? To the system? To the graphics? To the Pokemon? To the locations? Because it's fairly obvious that not everyone is going to like the same things. And maybe talk about what changes thus far are meeting expectations, if any.

    http://ds.ign.com/articles/108/1086671p1.html

    I tried finding a list that is concise and not a bunch of random thoughts put down on paper. Is this somewhere in the ballpark of what you guys, the fans, would want?
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  8. #98
    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by Zekurom View Post
    But they're not the same damn thing. Each generation had radical differences.
    When it comes to core gameplay/story? No. When it comes to game progression? No. There is no real radical difference between the four main games, which is reflected in critics' consensus as the series has continued.

    As for what I want; well, obviously, as I stated I dig the progression into a more 3D world, and I like the nature vs. technology idea as well as the seasonal changes... unfortunately, I haven't really been liking the monster designs. There are maybe three that I would have assumed was a Pokemon if presented to me without the knowledge that it is a Pokemon. A lot of them remind me more of those knock-off Pokemon from the 90s. When every toy manufacturer created little monsters-for-your-pocket...
    Last edited by Nelly; 27th August 2010 at 10:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Well one certainly can't put a number on tastes. So let's ignore the Pokemon for now, because they represent a very superficial level of the game.

    If I had to wager, I'd say you don't see them adding something like the Musicals to be as significant as adding in another area for you to explore. And as far as triple and rotational battles go, I bet they aren't the kinds of core gameplay changes you're looking for.

    What else... Global Link stuff. I'm sure you're pretty "meh" on the Dream World, as well as the High Link multiplayer. But I bet you like the random matchmaking and online ranking system. You probably don't care for the mini-games nor the trading of items. Voice chat with friends? Maybe, maybe not.

    We'll have the PokeShifter to shift older Pokemon, so I'm sure you'll like that, but I imagine you won't like waiting till the end of the game for it. The C-gear looks like it'll streamline trading via the Wireless and throws in IR support, if you're into those things. Supposedly we'll be able to have instant battles or trades, even straight from the Box.
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    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    I actually sort of dig the idea of the new Interwebs stuff they are doing... it a matter of how it's all executed... this can end up being something that everyone laughs at in the future. Then again, it could be a big step forward...

    As for the Musicals... yeah, not my thing... unless I can put on a Pokemon version of Spamalot, I ain't going to be touching that feature. Much too cutesy for me.
    Last edited by Nelly; 28th August 2010 at 12:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    So it's safe to say that if musicals were your thing, you'd be head over heels in love, right? Dismissing any fun you may or may not derive from them for the moment, they do add to another aspect to the games, sort've like contests. However, if contests weren't your cup of tea, you probably didn't play them. We also had the Pokeathalon in HGSS. These musicals might be in the same vein of "fun little past time" like the Pokeathalon. But they aren't scratching your itch, so maybe they don't count.

    That just makes me all the more curious as to what GF needs to do in order to get an A++. Whatever the past few games have done ain't cutting it apparently. I'm sure you've got a laundry list of suggestions for what the games require in order to exceed your expectations. So, let's hear 'em. The stuff that GF absolutely must do to get a 100%.
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by V Faction View Post
    So it's safe to say that if musicals were your thing, you'd be head over heels in love, right? Dismissing any fun you may or may not derive from them for the moment, they do add to another aspect to the games, sort've like contests. However, if contests weren't your cup of tea, you probably didn't play them. We also had the Pokeathalon in HGSS. These musicals might be in the same vein of "fun little past time" like the Pokeathalon. But they aren't scratching your itch, so maybe they don't count.

    That just makes me all the more curious as to what GF needs to do in order to get an A++. Whatever the past few games have done ain't cutting it apparently. I'm sure you've got a laundry list of suggestions for what the games require in order to exceed your expectations. So, let's hear 'em. The stuff that GF absolutely must do to get a 100%.
    100%'s are tough. I don't give 100% all too often... for something to be that good in my book, it has to do something that surprises me (in a good way)...

    As for what I want? Seasons was something I wanted after playing D/P/Pt and seing that those kinds of environments could be done. The more 3D-based world is another thing I wanted to see, as well as bigger differences between versions (I've been waiting for games that are different enough to warrant me buying both, and these might just do it). I'd like to see customizable characters, but I don't think that will be happening until the first games made exclusively for the 3DS...

    Overall, though, I want them to surprise me. Do something unexpected and new. I have an open mind when it comes to new ideas, they just haven't executed new ideas around the core gameplay, it has all been extra stuff.

    And I am somewhat a fan of musicals. But this is more banking on the tween-love of innocent musicals. I'm into the dark comedies and British comedies... I'm not digging on the Musicals by default because I'm not who they are shooting for with that feature. And that isn't a detraction, as long as there are some features in there that are meant to make fans like me salivate... and there are some there...

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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    So...

    - Seasons
    - 3D graphics
    - Version differences

    Already these seem to be doing better than Generation III. 'Course, we'll have to wait till we get into the meat and potatos of the games before we can have an accurate "Yay" or "Nay", but so far things are looking good.

    From what's been presented about the Musicals, I don't think your mind will be changing, so I'm not going to dwell on them. As par the course though, once we've gotten a grasp for what they're all about, I suppose there might be room for a change.

    But core, core, core, that's what seems to be the biggest touchstone that Game Freak needs to hit. By core of course you mean the standard "8 Gyms, Elite 4, Evil Team, Battle Frontier" jig-and-jive that they do. And there's no shame in admitting that this is probably the most criticized part of the Pokemon games and is no doubt the largest contributor to that stale feeling people get. So it makes sense that you'd want a change. What kind of change would that be?

    As it stands now, Black and White appear to be following in the same footsteps. However, it's unfair at this point to say anything in regards to that observation because we just don't have enough information. There's no harm in thinking, however, that this would need to surpass all the other previous iterations in presentation, style, surprises, gameflow, and direction in order to tickle our fancy. Some interesting things to note would be the cutscenes and talking character art they've added.
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  14. #104

    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/23/

    Just replace D&D with Pokemon.

  15. #105
    poop Nelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking Forward: 3:10 to Hoenn: Outlook and Speculation from a Lifelong Die-Hard

    Quote Originally Posted by V Faction View Post
    But core, core, core, that's what seems to be the biggest touchstone that Game Freak needs to hit. By core of course you mean the standard "8 Gyms, Elite 4, Evil Team, Battle Frontier" jig-and-jive that they do. And there's no shame in admitting that this is probably the most criticized part of the Pokemon games and is no doubt the largest contributor to that stale feeling people get. So it makes sense that you'd want a change. What kind of change would that be?

    As it stands now, Black and White appear to be following in the same footsteps. However, it's unfair at this point to say anything in regards to that observation because we just don't have enough information. There's no harm in thinking, however, that this would need to surpass all the other previous iterations in presentation, style, surprises, gameflow, and direction in order to tickle our fancy. Some interesting things to note would be the cutscenes and talking character art they've added.
    I think the cutscenes have a potential to make Pokemon feel more like an actual journey. To feel like a full experience. Which is something it hasn't been for a long while now... Again, based on what they did with what they had in Gens I and II, those were complete games, and the closest to a complete experience they've produced. But they can do so much more now. Since the beginning of the series, they have pressed the idea of Pokemon as friends > tools. This is something they can bring to the surface with the cutscenes and the higher level of graphics. It'd be nice if they'd bank on the boy-and-his-dog story that Pokemon has always been centered around. I'd like to see that.

    I'd also like to see where you go, and how you get there throughout your "journey" to be decided on choices. Not something that takes over the game, but they are obviously trying to involve the player's imagination in this fantasy world. Allowing there to be different paths to reach the end would facilitate that.

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