Thread: Crystal in the HGSS arc

Originally Posted by Mitchman

She has pigtails and it looks like her hair is round. Gat dammit she looks strange.

Round? It just looks like her regular pigtails are downward and her hair is straight.

Edit:



Yea, I was right. Looks like long downward pig tails and straight black/brown/blue hair. Reminds me of this girl. I can't make out her pants though. Is it pants or a skirt?

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Off topic, but there's nothing like this on Leaf's RG sprite/look, right? Other then those two official arts of her.

Remember that those are beta Crystal screenshots, as opposed to ones from Gold and Silver. We don't know if Game Freak were ever on the verge of adding a female player to any of the Generation I games.

Yaminokame agrees with mpd about the interview being inconclusive proof:

Originally Posted by yaminokame

The interview doesn't really imply specifically that they are the same people in the respects we are looking for, so that's sort of difficult to answer because it is really based on personal interpretation. One thing that really gets me is that this interview is talking about the character "design" and "visual" rather than character themselves (as in whether they are the same people [at heart] or possibly as would be the Ethan/GSC boy case, lookalike different people). For Ethan, he just says that he tried to design the HG/SS male character without deviating too much from the image of the G/S/C male character. As for Lyra, again, we're talking about designing the character, so even if he did not pay as much attention to the Crystal female character as he did with Ethan to the G/S/C male character when designing her, I don't think that necessarily means that it couldn't be the same character with a totally new look. As far as design goes, yes, this would say that she's completely new, but I really don't feel that's enough information to solve this particular debate since it seems to be more about the person themselves [at heart] rather than the image/design of the character. I believe that in the end it's really just what you consider to be "new" and what you believe exactly defines a "new" character. The most I get out of this interview is that Ethan's design was made to be similar to the G/S/C boy and Lyra's design was made anew. Unfortunately, I would have to call inconclusive on this one :/

Ultimately, the final answer rests with Junichi Masuda or one of the script writers, as the characters' story is more important than their designs. But for now, that story hasn't even been properly canonized yet.

I will say one thing: I can understand fans who think that Lyra and Kris are one the same (I was one of them), and I can particularly relate to anyone who thinks that Kris and Leaf exist elsewhere in the canon. But the thought that Kris has been rendered null just so that the female player can look different is a bit dire, as far as I'm concerned. The games may not be as character-driven as Pokémon Special is, but with the exception of the Yellow-exclusive characters that are alive and well in the anime (as well as in HGSS for Pikachu), I have yet to see evidence of Game Freak's willingness to remove characters out of existence forever. HGSS are not the final verdict on anything related to Johto or Kanto.

Originally Posted by mpd

This is very interesting! I also find it interesting how you have no problem with the thought process of this demo character being Kris ("Kris was obviously supposed to look very different...") though you do with Kris being Lyra :P

That's because the beta design was obviously scrapped, so there is little point in considering that character to be separate from Kris. If Lyra is Kris, then Game Freak need to account for why they made it so confusing to tell that much, seeing as most fans are fully aware of what Kris looked like in Generation II.

Also, I don't recall Brenden and May having dialogue differences that set them apart any differently than Ethan's and Lyra's.

For starters, their personalities are very different: Brendan is a chauvanist who is surprised to find out that the player, who has been highly spoken of by his father, is actually a girl; May is giddy about meeting the player and talks about her dream of becoming friends with every Pokémon.

More importantly, one of Brendan's calls to the player has him say that he'd like it if a Gym opened up in Slateport City so that he could be its leader. I'm fairly sure that May never mentions anything similar and prefers research to battling.

I don't know that it's a PROBLEM... I liked having all of the little side-quests. It made the game seem bigger. I liked how they used the time that they had to try and fill this game up with as much pure stuff as they possibly could.

You misinterpreted me; I was referring to the lack of new interesting events outside the ones triggered by the movie promotions. As far as the text goes, even the Lugia/Ho-Oh event is poor compared to the Suicune and Ho-Oh events from Crystal.

Because she's Lyra. XP

Under that assumption, why doesn't NPC Lyra at least have a starter? That's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of the addition of a third character to the player and rival ensemble.

The remakes are just that--remakes. Anything which comes in future games from Johto isn't going to come from Gold, Silver or Crystal anymore.

If you believe that, then you must also think there isn't going to be anything remotely interesting about the in-game event for the beasts in Black and White, as the bulk of their mythology is absent from HGSS.

This year marks the tenth of anniversay of Crystal; I see no reason why Black and White can't have references to Crystal-exclusive elements. If that doesn't happen, I'll accept that she either doesn't exist anymore or, being Lyra, is not that important a character.

Besides, I still don't think that if Lyra and Kris were different characters that the 3rd pokeball disappearing would be any more likely to go to Kris than to Lyra. More people probably presume that it would go to Lyra than people presume that it would go to Kris.

It is one thing to think that the fate of the third starter is irrelevant, but there is really no room to entertain the idea that it was given to Ethan/Lyra. There is a hidden event with Ethan/Lyra; I would think that if they had been meant to have the missing starter, then that would have at least been confirmed on that occasion. Besides, why would Professor Elm give them a starter when they already have a Marill they use for research on walking with Pokémon, and have shown no motivation to become trainers?

t looks like the pages have been edited very recently, but maybe this would be best left up to you since you seem to have a place there whereas I'm simply "out of nowhere" and "inexperienced"... -.-

I've edited the trivia sections of both pages to make their stance neutral. It is still made clear that most people consider the characters to be different, though.

I think that taking Kris out of HG/SS would be more like removing her from existance than giving her a makeover would.

I don't dispute that; my comment was targeted at the fans who think that not only is Lyra not Kris, but we will never see Kris again. Some fans have even gone as far as to suggest that Game Freak have something against Kris.

Official artwork doesn't mean much, especially not when it is contradicted by the games themselves. For the record, the artwork on this this page had made me feel more strongly about Lyra being Kris, only to find out that it didn't pan out in the games themselves (inasmuch as Eusine was equally associated with both player characters).

Didn't Brenden also quit training Pokemon to go on and do research with Birch?

Neither one of them really quit; they just returned home for an undetermined period. Brendan clearly had other plans for the future, which is why I think that if we ever see Hoenn past the Generation III timeline, Brendan will be established as the canon Birch child, with May being the canon protagonist.

They did add the Kimono girl event thing,

An event that adds nothing to Johto's mythology.

and this time around you could catch the version mascot without needing all three dogs (I still can't get Raikou in my Heart Gold >.<)

I don't think it matters in which order you catch the legendaries; HGSS and Crystal make it equally hard to get all five of them. Some would say that Crystal made it more difficult to defeat the Elite Four for players who had relied on Ho-Oh/Lugia in Gold and Silver, and there was certainly nothing wrong with that.

What is more important, in my eyes, is the flow of the story; it makes more sense that Suicune challenges the player before Ho-Oh does, considering that the former traverses Johto, whereas the latter left it 150 years ago and has never returned since. Of course, HGSS didn't have to address that because they left out the part where Suicune tests the player's purity to see if they are worthy of meeting Ho-Oh.

Suicune was Crystal's version mascot, and he was the guy who spent his life trying to meet up with it. These games give him some closure, seeing the end of the Suicune story and then leaving him at that, unlike the originals, where even after the player finally stops chasing Suicune he still isn't satisfied.

He was satisfied in Crystal; rather than calling it a day when the player caught Suicune, he wanted to test his theory that Ho-Oh would return to the Tin Tower if all three beasts were caught. After that theory was proven right, he said that would continue studying Pokémon. In other words, the character had more substance to him than wanting to catch Suicune.

It is because of the HGSS changes that I don't see Eusine paying a visit to the new region to see what role the three beasts have there.

I do believe that the only time where that actually happened inside of a game was in D/P/Pt.

That's true enough, but the other games made no indication as to what happened to the third starter. In fact, not even the DPPt games did, since the opposite-gender character had had their starter before the player selected theirs (the same goes for the RSE games).

To me it says a lot that we are suddenly supposed to ask ourselves what happened to the third starter.

-Under "counterparts", maybe something could be added to say, "It is possible that she is the same character as Lyra(name links to page), though there is no clear proof as of yet to determine this either way."?
-In fact, maybe the same sentence could also go on Lyra's page, but with the name switched to Kris?

That section is for Kris' counterparts from different media. In the games, Kris and Lyra can either be distinct or they are one and the same; the word counterpart isn't fitting.

-Under trivia, it still says "Despite this, she is not the female choice in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, being replaced by Lyra." This still kinda sounds more definitive than neutral, even with the bullet added. The way it is, the bullet looks more like a contradictary argument point than an additional tidbit. Maybe this could just say, "In Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver, the female choice is Lyra. (Lyra's name can be link text to her page, and the supporting bullet point can be kept for clarity.)

I've changed this so that it reads "Despite this, the female choice in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver is Lyra, who is viewed by most fans as a different character."

Neither one of them really quit; they just returned home for an undetermined period. Brendan clearly had other plans for the future, which is why I think that if we ever see Hoenn past the Generation III timeline, Brendan will be established as the canon Birch child, with May being the canon protagonist.

Going by thematic naming, May seems to be the one related to Norman, so I support that. Besides, Brendan's dialogue makes his cameo more interesting and since he's not a champion like Red, his appearance wouldn't be a total copy.

Originally Posted by mpd

Also, I don't recall Brenden and May having dialogue differences that set them apart any differently than Ethan's and Lyra's. I seem to remember both of them having the same role.

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I made a video on this once on one of my Youtube accounts. It's just their beginning dialogues though. .

Brendan's more suave then May, who is a generic cutie pie who wants to help you. Brendan is..Well..He has an ego, to put it simple. He's always faking distaste and implying she's weaker then her dad. May just giggles and says how she wants to be friends with everyone Pokemon in the region. She doesn't really show much character either. Basically all of her dialogue is super-sweet helpings.

Also I don't recall May ever saying this: I just saw a huge green Pokémon flying across the sky!....I wish you were there, <player's name>.

I've played as both characters. May bores me to death yet I want to punch Brendan at times.

Originally Posted by Somari

Also I don't recall May ever saying this: I just saw a huge green Pokémon flying across the sky!....I wish you were there, <player's name>.

I'm fairly sure that she does say that, as this particular reference is supposed to let the player know that Rayquaza is in the Sky Pillar (Wallace later asks where it is).

um, I think we've moved an entire generation away from the character in question.

Originally Posted by Unown Lord

I'm fairly sure that she does say that, as this particular reference is supposed to let the player know that Rayquaza is in the Sky Pillar (Wallace later asks where it is).

But she doesn't coo how she wants to be near you.

Does anyone have the scripts for DPP, Emerald, or HGSS for gender comparisons? I had them but I don't have Photoshop so I couldn't see them.

Originally Posted by Takoto

Image:

Well...Kris certainly looks...interesting...

I was looking forward to Lyra being in the manga, but I guess that won't be happening now, will it?

As for the whole Lyra/Kris thing, IMO, Kris and Lyra are two totally different characters.
Lyra was probably made for HGSS because Gold and Silver had no female character, while Kris was exclusively designed for Crystal. Though it's safe to say that Lyra was at least inspired by Kris.
But that's just my opinion, and now I'm going to leave Unown Lord and mpd to their debate.

*scurries away*

Originally Posted by mpd

I'd be so quick to take those scripts and make a comparitive chart between all 3 sets of characters. I have photoshop too, if that's what you need to open it in.

I'll see if I can find the scripts online. But currently all I find are RGBY and GSC.

Anyway, is that Crys's only appearence in HGSS so far or has no one scanned her yet?

Originally Posted by Takoto

Image:

I would have prefered it if they were seperate characters. Because they are seperate characters.

I suppose with the Blue Leaf thing, it was expected. I always considered Blue and Leaf to be the same person anyway.

Originally Posted by GloomyDayz

I always considered Blue and Leaf to be the same person anyway.

They're obviously counterparts and they're both based off the same person; Leaf is a remake of the original Blue from RG and Blue is her manga counterpart. It would be a bit ignorant to not think of them as counterparts.

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Am I the only one who wants to see more scans of Silver? What did they do to him? I mean literally, what changed? All I see is his hair is a bit more combed (or maybe it's messier, I can't recall) and that they gave him that small ahoge.

Kris will be wearing Lyra's clothes

RUINED FOREVER

But seriously, this is horrible. I hate Lyra's costume.