Are you happy they replace characters? - Page 3

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Thread: Are you happy they replace characters?

  1. #31
    Bonded Forever Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    Heck, no. Theres no point in replacing characters except to piss people off who like them (taking out Misty is one thing, but replacing Brock AGAIN??? REALLY?), its not fair to the fans.
    I disagree. There is a point in replacing the characters and it isn't just to make people upset. They replace them to market the new games. I can understand why people wouldn't like that, but they don't do it just to upset the fans, especially when I think a good portion, if not all of the fans who get really upset over characters being replaced are well outside of the target audience for the show in the first place.
    Maybe thats not their intent but it still makes people mad. No one wants their favorite character to be gone from the main cast. They have other ways to market the new games, they didn't have to touch the main cast. The rest of the characters (like Dawn, Iris, etc.) could have been rivals, not relpacements (we had contests in Hoenn and Sinnoh, and the Pokemon of each respective regions (except Porygon-Z), that's MORE than enough promotion IMO. It really takes no skill to start over with a new character in place of an established one.

  2. #32
    Super Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    Maybe thats not their intent but it still makes people mad. No one wants their favorite character to be gone from the main cast. They have other ways to market the new games, they didn't have to touch the main cast. The rest of the characters (like Dawn, Iris, etc.) could have been rivals, not relpacements (we had contests in Hoenn and Sinnoh, and the Pokemon of each respective regions (except Porygon-Z), that's MORE than enough promotion IMO. It really takes no skill to start over with a new character in place of an established one.
    I never tried to say that it wasn't making people mad. I was just trying to say why there is a point to replacing characters and they aren't just trying to upset people who like those characters. I don't think that they would have made characters based on the playable trainers like May and Dawn into rival characters. I could kind of see that with Iris, but it might have been a bit too much of a stretch to turn a Gym Leader character into a rival. They were able to showcase more Pokemon with Contests in AG and DP, but they'd need to put more focus on promoting the new Pokemon from each generation. Starting fresh with a new character can help them to promote the new Pokemon. They don't have to do that, but I still think it's for the best so that each series has a little something different, they have new characters to explore and it would liven up the cast much more than if it was still Ash, Misty and Brock in my opinion at least. There are some shows who can have the same cast for years without replacing characters, but most of those shows have better writing than Pokemon to pull that off.

  3. #33
    Mrs. Steven Stone Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    There are some shows who can have the same cast for years without replacing characters, but most of those shows have better writing than Pokemon to pull that off.
    ^This pretty much explains everything.

    Replacing characters is necessary because of marketing and storywise plots. And it prevents from characters getting stale and overused.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    3 pages of discussion and i'm still the only one to vote no :(

  5. #35

    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kb77 View Post
    3 pages of discussion and i'm still the only one to vote no :(
    I voted no too.

    One of the major drawbacks of the anime is their inability (or unwillingness, maybe both?) To address their problems, instead choosing to cover them up with a fresh coat of paint (in this case, new characters). By changing characters each time, it's fallen into another stale formula: Something they've tried to avoid to begin with!
    Last edited by flyingblueshellder; 3rd April 2014 at 01:10 PM.

  6. #36
    Bonded Forever Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    There are some shows who can have the same cast for years without replacing characters, but most of those shows have better writing than Pokemon to pull that off.
    Pokemon HAD good writing

  7. #37
    Super Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    4Pokemon HAD good writing
    I don't think that the writing would be good enough to make having the same main cast for over ten years work. The writing in the original series wasn't that good, but that's just me. Most people probably would have gotten bored with the cast if it stayed the same for well over a decade. A lot of people who liked Brock in the original series thought that he became stale and dull by DP, so the chances are good that would have happened if they had kept Misty around for that long too. Besides that, there is still the marketing issue and for a show like Pokemon, marketing is always going to take top priority over writing. While they could have made it work with the original cast, I just think it is a better choice to start off fresh since they'd be able to have a bit more freedom with working on a new character, giving them more variety of Pokemon and being able to try out new ideas, for better or for worse, with them than if they had stuck with the original cast. Like I've said, I can understand why people aren't happy that they do this, but I think that it is a good choice and better than if they kept the main cast for fifteen years.

  8. #38
    Power of Three Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    I voted no because as someone else said, it feels like the writers often replace characters to avoid having to develop them. They like to gloss over the issues instead of working on fixing them in my opinion, and it's disappointing when a character I like leaves the show. I just think that the writers should try harder to make every character fantastic.

  9. #39
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sakuraa View Post
    @pokemon fan 132; True, you could continue to watch older characters grow and develop, but I'd prefer it if it was during their own saga. For me, watching older characters continue past their saga, like seeing May in Sinnoh, would eventually become boring since we'd been with her for like 3 years already. Not to mention that any improvements to them would be quite similar to things they'd already done. If May and Dawn had continued past their sagas, they'd probably only be working on new contest skills and entering more contests, the same thing they'd be doing when they left the main cast. Even with new situations, it's still the same person with the same personality doing the same thing and I personally would see that as being quite boring after a long time. Not to mention the possibility of that being a character I really dislike. For example, I really dislike Dawn, so I wouldn't want to see her for multiple regions. With newer characters, we have the opportunity grow attachments to them instead of having to watch a disliked character for years.

    I don't want to give off the impression that I don't think the writers could expand on a character for more than one region and continue to give them new ways to grow and work further on their goals, but I personally don't think I could stay interested in that for very long. I just need new people and new situations to keep the show feeling fresh.
    I can see from where your coming.
    But what if they don't receive sufficient amount of development in their own saga and growth though? Sometimes one saga isn't enough to develop character and his goal requiring more time to be explored and have character accomplish something significant which would serve as testament to all labor put into it beforehand bringing him closer toward his dreams.

    For example just about when May finally started to change realizing what she wants to do in life and how she needs to revamp style as coordinator developing her own approach, and became experienced coordinator which was starting to make success instead of seeing her grow further in more refined directions she got replaced in favor of new girl doing same thing she did.

    In Misty case when writers finally started doing something significant with her story and water master career through Whirl Cup defining it more casting new interesting light on whole thing and way to go forward, when she started to mature and grew as person, when her pokemon team become better defined with addition of Corsola and Politoad they got rid of her in half of development being deprived of chance to go forward.

    When Tracey got introduced and we got chance to learn more about him and who he is, instead of expanding on his goal, pokemon team and history he was ditched in blink of eye again being deprived of chance to receive development.
    Etc, etc.

    Whats the point than of establishing plots about character, start his storyline and development as character and have people invest and care to see him go from point A to point B if everything will be cut in half and abandoned wasting all potential he/she has to grow forward?

    With such approach might as well not introduce any story about character and give viewers false feeling of his story intended to be enriched and expanded upon when everything goes down the drain anyway leaving us with "unfinished character" product which extends to new companion. And just start treating pokemon as comedy sitcom which isn't intended to be taken seriously existing solely for out of wall exaggerated humor like Hanna Barbera and similar legatee anime productions do.

    Now i can understand what you mean about being boring to see someone doing same thing and being stuck in same, repetitive situations year after year. But to be fair in case May stayed for DP all changes to contests introduced in there, appealing rounds being more prevalent, tag battling concept would apply to her character having to learn how to adapt to new challenges and situations. Meaning character being put in new situations, chance to add fresh light to him through new designs and clothes but explore of personality as well developing new traits bringing new interesting note to her. For instance she changed alot as person thanks to struggles and trials she went through in Ag not being any less interesting because of that in DP being refreshing to see her in mature, more self confident light without losing her charm.-

    Same applies to Misty for instance whose growth from early days had her change in more independent and levelheaded person while keeping her flare, passion and quirky side remaining fun in more grown up manner allowing to develop on interactions between her and other characters in case she stayed. Diversity of her story would make even easier than its case for coordinators to put her in new, unpredictable directions. Whether her further growth as trainer would mean expansion on what was started with Whirl Cup introducing more events to push her forward exploring on concept of underwater battles for example. Have her go on quest to become E4 like her idol Lorelei is or becoming her , Wallace or some other powerful water trainer apprentice passing tasks and evaluators, Take advantage of one of plots in manga having her involved in plot about legendary water pokemon like they did with Suicune bringing her closer toward obtaining mastery over type.

    For example i enjoyed in Ash during majority of his run not being stale for me because writers had him go through new challenges and quests he needed to obtain like Battle Frontier and different way of growth he made when passing through gyms and participating in leagues. If he was replaced we would never see him grow forward as person and trainer, learning new sides about his personality and quest; such as becoming grown enough to take mentor role to May utilizing knowledge he gained from Misty and Brock to help her out, developing rivalry with Paul through more complex way than he did with Gary, growing as trainer to such degree that he was almost ready to win DP league,

    Because of stay we were able to learn more about Ash character, we got to see him gradually grow making further progress in those sagas.
    Bringing up question why not do same with other traveling companions adding more to his story, find new, fresh ways to develop him further without getting stale and develop him over long period of time?

    I mean in Naruto with Sasuke, Sakura and others, One Piece and Nami, Robin, Luffy, Zoro, DBZ with Goku, Vegeta or Krilin don't we see their characters staying for long periods of time but instead of getting people bored they appreciate when someone stays for longer time because it allows them to learn more about past and what molded someone to become what he/she is today, give them insight into someone story going through new directions developing further which is carried over new regions he travel through and add more substance to story making people grow more attached to character/invest in him?

    We can see writers for this shows have their characters change and grow in more complex directions keeping things interesting and preventing audience from getting bored of it. They change and build on interactions between their characters, have them gradually change and grow as persons shedding new, unique light on characterization adding more substance and keep things interesting with new subplots being opened in their stories to have viewer see them in different/fresh light and find out things he didn't knew about originally.

    Im not expecting Pokemon to have same level of depth anytime soon.
    But at same time couldn't we have enjoyable cast in pokemon too which explores more on their personality, relationship with Ash and other friends, learn more about new species, cultures and people growing in more complex directions?

    As far as attachment toward character goes personally i don't see much point in investing into new characters anymore myself when its known already from start how they will end up unfinished and threw aside like rest of Ash previous friends being left to rot forgotten in past. Whether we want to admit or not, constant cast cycling is responsible for this because more new characters you add makes space cluttered more than it already is decreasing chances of previous characters we grew to like of being seen again, enjoy in their personalities and watch them grow more being given update and chance to be in action again.

    Bringing nothing but anger, disappointment and frustration from character fans stopping to care and like characters in this show when they already from start know what is going to happen anyway.

    I definitely understand your point of change sometimes being required to keep things fresh, but there is point of exaggerating with whole thing killing chance to form stable cast, continuity based story and develop foundations on which people can maintain interest and remain loyal toward anime. Rather than turning them of from show.None of other anime out there change cast so often, with pokemon starting to look like pageant which has no respect toward characters created there and storyline.

    What should happen is achieving some sort of balance(happy middle) imo. Having series go forward while keeping older companions relevant in some form, utilizing them when their return could help advance current story or help them grow forward.

    For instance why not instead of adding new girl and boxy for 6th and future generations start doing character rotation between already existing companions??? Bringing new life into them through new outfits, developed pokemon and new ones they might catch and plots which serve as way to grow further and advance goals in new, never seen before light? That way we would be still getting different faces with each new generation, new ways of developing characters and situation they would be put in collecting new knowledge and how to come closer toward their dreams through new events, people and obstacles out in front of them.
    By being in cast you can enjoy in characters you like interacting with others, you can see them develop and battle, deal with trials and flaws making mistakes and working toward their dreams
    That way wider group of people can be pleased setting up foundation for more continuity, plot driven and exciting story. Along with higher ratings.

    If you cut down a bit on constant cycling finding way to tie previous companion in show story im of opinion how this could establish groundwork for new fresh interactions, allow us to learn more about favorites we like doing sequel to their story bringing new, unpredictable change of pace to current formula.

    And i believe we have more than enough fresh faces which could use more growth with each bringing something different and interesting for this show preventing from getting people bored thanks to concept of rotation staying for not too long, but too short either having time to get updated, be involved within new plots and grow forward tying up its loose ends.

    p.s.I respect your view on this, but to me it would be better to work more with characters you already created who has groundwork and predispositions to grow further continuing from what was started having us enjoy and learn more about those we like being took in new, fresh directions rather than having all potential end up wasted applying same faith on new companion having show stuck in "never ending predictable, but most of all boring cycle".
    Which isn't fresh at all by now.

    Even so maybe we should call a day and stop with debate seeing how we are not far from starting to run into circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectrum Achromatic View Post
    ^This pretty much explains everything.

    Replacing characters is necessary because of marketing and storywise plots. And it prevents from characters getting stale and overused.
    Its more other way around for me. Replacing characters contribute to shallow writing and laziness since unlike its case with other shows which invest in established cast building on their story in pokemon writers aren't induced to write more creatively, find ways to keep characters fresh and develop them in well planned manner over long periods of time.

    Since following same repetitive formula causes that their writing skills got rusty over time not needing to exercise and find way how to better themselves and surpass limits. Just continuing to repeat same mistakes with new characters making story and development look like joke compared to other shows out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kb77 View Post
    3 pages of discussion and i'm still the only one to vote no :(
    Your not the only one, count me in as well. But yes i think poll results on this site reflect how most people sadly don't care to see characters they like develop further , do new things and get involved into action instead of ending erased and forgotten unfinished never to be seen again. Which is common practice for this anime.

    On other sites its usually opposite as far as history of their polls is something to go through though.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 13th June 2013 at 11:37 AM.

  10. #40
    Double Dandy Sakuraa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    @pokemon fan 132; I agree. I personally think what needs to be done is the writers style of developing characters. They need to focus on developing a character to their full potential during their own saga so that their stories will feel complete when they leave and hopefully, the viewers will feel satisfied with their growth and departure and not feel like the writers shafted an older character just for a newer one just to promote the next set of games. Then we can start fresh on a new character and watch them fully reach their goals as well.

    Unfortunately with how Pokémon has been for the past years, I don't see it happening soon.

  11. #41
    Back From The Grave Charbok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Honestly I am, since the point of the anime is to promote the games for that generation. Why would they keep Misty around for DP when she's not a character in Gen 4? I like that they introduce new characters that are related to the games that they come from, and in some cases, like with Cilan, their anime counterparts have a much better and more interesting personality. Ash pretty much takes the place of the male protagonist in the games and I liked that May and Dawn got anime counterparts, especially since both these characters in the games aren't nearly as developed as Brendan or Lucas.

    As much as I love a lot of the older characters, I like that they replace them with characters that belong with the current generation. Even with Brock you can argue that he's still a Gym Leader in Gen 2 (along with Misty), and in Gens 3 and 4 there were remakes that included him as a Gym Leader. Plus Team Rocket gets a mention at least once in the games. They only thing I really wish they did was make the evil organizations more involved in the anime. It was nice to see N and Team Plasma get their own arc but in the end it ended up being rushed.

    Look Forward, Team Rocket!

    Also I claim Piplup in the Claim a Pokemon thread =)

  12. #42

    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Intelligence View Post
    Meh. I liked Brock in the original series, but as Spectrum Achromatic said, he was getting rather tiring by DP. I would flip if Iris was laid off (which she inevitably will be. Looks like I'm hiding in my depression corner come October.), so I like it when characters that have stuck around like gum on the roof of your mouth are laid off, but I don't mind when characters like Misty who was in it for 4 or so years are laid off and later return.
    I agree completely. As much as I like Brock, I'm glad he was replaced. I was really starting to get tired of him by DP.
    Likewise with Misty at the end of Johto. I like Misty more than Brock, but by the end of Johto, she was starting to lose her luster. If she had stayed all the way to the end of Sinnoh she would've become a terribly stale character.
    I think May and Dawn each could've stuck around a bit longer-they both had more ways they could develop before reaching their entertainment limits.
    However, I will be fairly happy to see Iris go. She's so cute, but her personality irritates me.

    I love it when they revive characters from previous seasons for a few episodes (like Misty in Hoenn, May in Sinnoh and Dawn in Unova), but I don't think I'd want to see said characters traveling with Ash for seasons after their arcs ended.
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  13. #43

    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    YES. Extremely happy. More so when it's a character that I like, that's being replaced.

    I notice that some people are saying that the writers are using character replacing so as they don't have to develop the characters. I disagree. Takeshi for example received most of his development in DP and Kanto (though it's pretty hard to notice in DP because we were already sick of him.) Now why did Takeshi get an egg, career change foreshadowing, ect in DP? Because they knew they wouldn't have to keep the character going: and keep them going in such a way that makes them dull or bloated.

    In my opinion the best characters tend to be the ones that last one generation: Kouhei, Harley, Shinji, Shuu, Jun, ect. Whilst theses characters aren't dead (pretty much the only way they can truly be over with no stories left), they do feel finished. I think that Haruka is the best example here. She left to have her own journey in Jouto. It was an ending and a happy ending. We're not worrying that she'll mess up because of the growth she got when she was on the show. Therefore there is no need for her to come back, other than that we enjoyed her.

    For me an ending can say a lot about a character, almost as much as a start. With character replacement, comes endings. Therefore I like character replacement.

  14. #44
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta Fantasies View Post

    I agree completely. As much as I like Brock, I'm glad he was replaced. I was really starting to get tired of him by DP.
    Likewise with Misty at the end of Johto. I like Misty more than Brock, but by the end of Johto, she was starting to lose her luster. If she had stayed all the way to the end of Sinnoh she would've become a terribly stale character.
    Only if she stayed in same position with nothing new being done about character. However seeing how writers expanded more on her goal through Whirl Islands revealing how there exist benchmarks and tasks which could explain more whole thing and bring her closer, diversified her team through new captures and evolutions and had her go through development becoming more mature and independent which brought fresh angle to character doing balance between her tomboyish and playful, more caring side makes me believe how that wouldn't be the case with new things they started to do with character and situations she was out in which could have continued if she stayed reinventing and adding new interesting note to character and story.

    If you ask me keeping someone for longer period of time gives opportunity to learn more about characters we like,seeing other sides of them explored more giving more layers and depth to someone. And seeing characters going through new adventures and development enriching their storyline can never be a bad thing.

    There are plenty anime which keep same cast for years without losing their appeal among fans, staying fresh. Since they refresh their characters through new designs, explore more on personality and past,introduce new subplots and actually do sequel/build up to already established storyline bringing new angle to it. Which means more continuity, better developed character and stable cast which goes through deeper growth.

    Something i would appreciate much more than never ending cycle through new characters while leaving us with gazillion of unfinished, fun characters we used to like ending eventually erased and forgotten like they never mattered.Which already happened with Misty, May or Max and soon enough will happen with newer characters we got too.

    I think May and Dawn each could've stuck around a bit longer-they both had more ways they could develop before reaching their entertainment limits.
    I actually find Misty had much more room and potential left to develop than May or Dawn had in reality by end of their runs. Her goal of becoming water master was barely explored allowing to break new grounds after Whirl Cup. Such as entering chain of events which would serve as benchmarks to push her forward(i always thought concept of underwater battling would have been cool to see). Going way of experiencing intensive training in order to become E4 member or Wallace, Lorelei apprentice was possibility too since it draws links with her water goal offering fresh potential to do worthwhile story out of it and gain meaningful development. In firm of entering various tasks and battling evaluators tio determine if she has potential for such position with E4 being basically one type masters.

    There were also other unexplored dreams Misty had like meeting legendary water type in person catching it or learning how to understand this type and extract their true potential on surface. Something they did skillfully in manga.

    There was left a lot more to be done with er pokemon like Starmie, Horsea, Goldeen or Psyduck. We could have seen her learning how to develop her own battle style and overcome weakness of her water type to those they are weak against. Or teach her pokemon to battle and swim like duck

    Find more about her past like family, why she fear bugs with Surskit back in day seeming like excellent way to dive more into her issues being bug/water. Find out what motivated her in wanting to become water master not being revealed like it was case with others with who we dived into their past and origins.

    While maybe she couldn't had last forever i believe she had room left to grow more for at least one more region.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Are you happy they replace characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    There are some shows who can have the same cast for years without replacing characters, but most of those shows have better writing than Pokemon to pull that off.
    Pokemon HAD good writing
    Yup, when Takeshi Shudo wrote things so that there was some actual depth to them, instead of focusing on the battling aspect alone (DP) and also a lack of said aspect entirely (BW), as shown in more recent arcs of the anime.

    There's a huge lack of any sort of medium between characters, character development, character chemistry, battles, and so on in later arcs of the anime. To me, the writers focus too much on one aspect while ignoring the other one entirely.

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