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  1. #16
    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingQuilava. View Post
    Its hard to say for me because I was pretty pissed off about Ash losing to Cameron and being disqualified was pretty ridiculous because back then I wanted Ash to win because he was more enjoyable in the OS, but I think Tobias and his overpowered legendaries take the cake for me honestly.
    I don't think that I wanted Ash to win the Indigo League, although I thought he would get further. In retrospect, I think that Ash losing because of Charizard was fitting, even though he could have beat Ritchie if he didn't spend nearly the whole episode trying to get away from Team Rocket.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingQuilava
    I thought Ash could actually win a league for once and I felt like the amount of interaction and lessons he learned from Cynthia, Flint, Lucian, Bertha, and Aaron just forshadowed he was going further in the Lily of The Valley Conference. He had a pretty powerful team and after FINALLY taking down Paul, I felt like this just shown how much he progressed as a trainer. All that progress was just shot down when he was screwed over by a trainer who I believe shouldn't have been ALLOWED to compete BECAUSE he used legendaries. My problem with trainers using legendaries in the leagues is that legendaries are naturally powerful and I feel like its seriously cheap.
    The only reason I thought that Ash could have won the Sinnoh League was because of how much attention his rivalry with Paul was getting throughout the series. It seemed entirely possible that they would put their match in the final round of the League and his progress as a trainer made it seem possible too. I didn't really see any foreshadowing with the Elite 4 though. I took it more as the writers taking advantage of characters from the current generation, instead of making some members appear much later like they did with the Kanto Elite 4. While I agree that using Legendary Pokemon is cheap, I don't see how he shouldn't be allowed to compete because of that. He still earned his badges and didn't cheat in his matches. Using overpowered Pokemon doesn't seem like a good enough reason to keep someone from competing in a League.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingQuilava
    While I'm pretty pissed that Cameron wasn't disqualified for having only 5 Pokemon with him, Tobias just shouldn't have been allowed to compete because of his use legendaries....one who Tobias just demolished every gym and trainer up until Ash defeated it with Sceptile. Cameron made terrible choices and kept out Swanna for Pikachu and Ferrothorn for Pignite, and overall it was a very poor battle with no strategy and lucky OHKO's(and not to mention the evolution), but UGH! Tobias just felt like a slap to the face after Darkrai and Latios tore apart Ash's team and after the progress Ash made. Not to mention how rushed the battle was and how Tobias was literally nothing more than a plot device for Ash to lose. At least Ritchie and Cameron got character.
    Being disqualified for only have five Pokemon on him sounds more like something that should have happened, or at least could have, instead of kicking someone out just because they used Legendary Pokemon. It is cheap, but it still isn't ground for disqualification in my opinion. I agree that the battle was rushed and I would have preferred it being two episodes long to fix that, but I don't think that it put Ash in a negative light. I don't think that he made the best choices for a couple of his Pokemon, but we went in fighting strong and Pikachu vs. Latios was a pretty awesome way for him to go out. He was the only one to defeat Darkrai, which kind of makes him the honorary second place winner of the tournament, and he still looked like a competent and skilled trainer. That's much more than I can say for his battle against Cameron. Cameron made some really terrible decisions with using Swanna and Perrothorn when he did, but Ash made some terrible choices too with using Ohsawott against Hydregion, keeping Pignite against Samurott and using Snivy in general. Nothing Ash did made me think that he should have won, although it was still bad to lose to someone like Cameron. Tobias was a plot device for Ash to lose and Ritchie and Cameron have character, but I don't see how that's necessarily better. With Cameron, he was annoying and Ritchie was pretty bland, although kind of a likable bland.
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    Electrifyingly Adorable Sakuraa's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Hm. Which was the worst leauge loss. I'll evalutate them all.

    Kanto-I'm okay with Ash losing here since he was an inexperienced trainer, it was his first leauge, and he made a rash and rather unintelligent decision to send out his disobedient Charizard. So no.

    Johto-Charizard lost to a Blaziken which I guess was reasonable since Blaziken seemed really strong, so no.

    Hoenn-I was surprised when Pikachu lost to Meowth, but it was a good battle overall and Meowth was very strong. No.

    Sinnoh-Ash losing to legendaries was cheap, but it was actually believable and expected so of course not.

    Unova-Ash lost to an idiotic trainer who only brought 5 Pokemon and only won because his Riolu evolved in the middle of the battle. Not to mention that the team Ash chose for the battle was terrible. The choices made by each trainer was ridiculous; sending out/leaving in Pokemon with disadvantages against their opponent and stuff like that. Ash used no spontaneous, interesting strategies during the battle, which was quite rushed, and overall it didn't feel like a battle between competent, intelligent trainers. So the Unova leauge loss had to be the worst for me.
    Last edited by Sakuraa; 17th May 2013 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova League loss was the most humiliating and definitely the worst loss for Ash since Cameron is a noob.

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    Statistical Anomaly Yoshi1001's Avatar
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    Default The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Tobias is really a poster child for overall bad pacing in the 4th generation. A one-year gym gap followed by a plot device of a final opponent was bound to leave a sour taste. I don't value the league tournaments as highly as other parts of the show, so it's not as bothersome to me, but I'd still put it at the bottom.

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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova League because Ash didn't use his other Pokémon that he caught from previous regions and he was defeated by a utter idiot who only used 5 Pokémon during the match.

  6. #21
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    It kinda adds insult to the injury that Ash brings Charizard back right AFTER the league ends. In other words he could have used it and others in the league and he would have won.

    It is kinda sad when you realize Ash probably would have won a league a long time ago if he simply used all his older pokemon in the correct manner. I know the writers don't do it for advertising reasons, but man its silly when you think about it.
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova and Kanto. Losing to Cameron who lost to half of Virgil's team right after being the only one to take out Darkrai reflects poorly on Ash's Country. Kanto stung too because he was so late and then gave a crap performance.
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova league, that had to be the worst league loss since Kanto. Made me swear off the series.

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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Yep, Unova without a doubt. As it's been said, while Ash's loss in the Indigo League was pretty frustrating since it was on a technicality, it was Ash's first League. And you know, one thing I liked about Pokemon that set it apart from other typical kids' shounen anime series was that the protagonist didn't win these major competitions all the time - especially right on the first go, which a lot of other shounen series are guilty for (first three seasons of Beyblade particularly annoyed me about this). Incidentally that's also why it doesn't bother me that much that Ash has yet to win a League, because up until Unova, he was visibly progressing as the series went on, which led me to believe we'd get a well-timed delayed satisfaction that I wish other shounen series would follow. Wasn't it also said that Top 16 was a notable accomplishment for a trainer's very first League, too? And the fact that it was Charizard that cost Ash the match was an interesting move that actually went somewhere, not to mention showing (to me, anyway) that great power comes with great responsibility and shouldn't come easy to anyone. Ash got his powerhouse Pokemon, but he went through a ton of crap to actually get that great power to respect him so he could use it efficiently. So in my eyes, while the Indigo League had its fair share of problems even beyond the Charizard thing, I can excuse it since it was the writers' first go at making a League (and if I had to choose, I'd prefer what we got opposed to the series ending with Ash winning his first League - you know, the crap I hate about the other shounen kids' series), and the consequences actually led to something more rewarding down the road.

    With Johto and Hoenn, there's not much reason to loathe those outcomes. Ash made progression in both; despite reaching the Top 8 both times, Hoenn made it a progression in other ways by having Ash achieve that without relying on his reserves and by losing to the guy who would actually go on to win the League.

    Sinnoh League understandably has some flak to how it ended. Even I won't deny that Tobias was little more than an excuse to not let Ash win this time around. But despite that - the battle itself was pretty damn good. And since they had already burned through 3 episodes giving us a most epic battle between Ash and Paul, I feel it would have cheapened that whole experience if Ash lost to some Average Joe right after beating Paul. The only real way to have Ash progress past the Top 8 without compromising the rivalry they built up the whole series was to have Ash face off against legendaries, so that way he'd go out with a bang... and in my opinion, he certainly did. Not only that, but it was pointed out that even the Runner-Up of the Sinnoh League couldn't beat Tobias' Darkrai, which as @Hidden Mew said, makes Ash more of an honorary Runner-Up of the Sinnoh League. So even though Ash was essentially robbed in the Sinnoh League by a legendary-spamming asshat, it was better he went out that way. Regardless of how unfair it was for Ash to be pitted against someone like that, it still made Ash look good in the end. The fact that he was the only one who got far enough to beat Darkrai and Latios is another aspect that helped Ash look good; as if he really was making progression in his ongoing journey to be a Pokemon Master.

    But had I known what they were going to do with Ash's character in Best Wishes, let alone how they'd make him perform in the Unova League, then really they should have just not bothered with Tobias and made Ash/Paul the final battle of the Sinnoh League. Conclude Ash's story there while he's at the peak of awesomeness, because what happened after this is just embarrassing to watch.

    The loss in the Unova League amazed me... in how it managed to make both Cameron and Ash look bad. Making it a 5v6? Bad. Making Cameron literally throw away two of his Pokemon for no reason whatsoever (because Ferrothorn is literally the worst thing he could've thrown at Pignite, same for Swanna against Pikachu)? Even worse, because to me that just turned the 5v6 into a 3v6, and Ash still lost. And Ash still lost because he too was making incredibly stupid decisions like keeping Pignite in against Samurott when it was worn out and had no real way to land any damage on it. You know, back in the Sinnoh League I thought it was kind of stupid for Paul to let his first two Pokemon fall easily to Ash just so he could confirm that Ash was using the same team as he had in their first full battle, but at least then Paul had a reason for doing that. A bit unnecessary, maybe, but it was justifiable. And Paul didn't just throw away his Aggron and Gastrodon either; both of them did some kind of damage - and a bonus of psyching Ash out by Paul using Gastrodon to shamelessly steal Ash's Counter Shield technique. That shameless dick moment still makes me smile. :')

    But there was no ulterior motive behind Cameron's choices. He just SOMEHOW thought it was a good idea to send Ferrothorn out against a Pokemon dual-typed of its only two weaknesses (one of which being a fucking quadruple weakness!!), and Ferrothorn accomplished jack shit in the battle. Swanna didn't do much either. Oh yeah, and clearly Cameron doesn't know what the term "secret weapon" means, seeing as he used Hydreigon first. What kind of person uses their so-called "secret weapon" first?! Idiots, that's who. To be fair, for almost the entirety of Best Wishes Ash has been a total moron when it came to how he battled, and unlike his previous League losses, Ash and Cameron didn't even pretend to have a real strategy in mind. It was just mindless callings of attacks after attacks, with the occasional "I believe in you!" thrown in. The fact that they threw in a mid-battle evolution in this match that pretty much turned things around instantly - the deus ex machina crap they've been pulling in almost half of Ash's gym battles (even though this was for Cameron) - was just the last element I needed to make Ash vs Cameron the battle that represents everything I've hated about Best Wishes.

    There was not one thing I liked about that battle; not a single thing my brain registers as a positive - something I can at least do for Ash's other League losses. In the end, the battle just made Ash AND Cameron look bad - Cameron even moreso when he went on to be easily defeated by Virgil's team of Eeveelutions plus Eevee. This battle (and most of the whole League, honestly) made all of the progress from Kanto to Sinnoh look utterly meaningless. It even annoyed me when Ash reflected on his loss later on and talked about how he "almost made it to the semifinals this time" - WHEN HE ALREADY MADE IT TO THE SEMIFINALS THE LEAGUE BEFORE THIS. As much as they've done to prove that Best Wishes is in continuity with the rest of the series, you know... it still doesn't feel like a continuation of the series! The Unova League is just the worst loss for Ash in so many ways. Not only was its execution in every possible way terrible, but it was bad enough to make me realize that despite the evidence from the series pre-BW, Ash's journey is doomed to be a neverending circle of misery and crap. It was neat for me to see Ash gradually progressing every League - now that they've broken the chain, I honestly don't know what to believe anymore.

    That's how bad the Unova League loss is.

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  10. #25
    Proud Pokeservative! 97SaturnSL1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova. need i say any more
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    So even though Ash was essentially robbed in the Sinnoh League by a legendary-spamming asshat, it was better he went out that way. Regardless of how unfair it was for Ash to be pitted against someone like that, it still made Ash look good in the end. The fact that he was the only one who got far enough to beat Darkrai and Latios is another aspect that helped Ash look good; as if he really was making progression in his ongoing journey to be a Pokemon Master.
    Likewise, Ash would have still lost the Sinnoh League, anyway. Tobias was a plot device to make Ash lose the league, but no more so than Ritchie, Harrison, etc.. But it's not that if Tobias didn't enter the league then Ash would have surely won the whole thing; we know the writers won't let that happen anytime soon. So, because of Tobias' choice of Pokemon, he just made Ash go out with a bang, especially since Ash performed much better against his ubers than all of Tobias' other opponents. This is why I never had any problems with Tobias' whole character at all, even genuinely liked how Ash was eliminated from the league.
    Last edited by Trainer Gabriel; 18th May 2013 at 12:28 PM.

  12. #27
    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    Likewise, Ash would have still lost the Sinnoh League, anyway. Tobias was a plot device to make Ash lose the league, but no more so than Ritchie, Harrison, etc.. But it's not that if Tobias didn't enter the league then Ash would have surely won the whole thing; we know the writers won't let happen anytime soon.
    Which just reminded me that if Ash hadn't helped Cameron's incompetent ass register for the Unova League, he never would have lost in that trainwreck of a battle. I'd assume if he never signed Cameron up that he'd lose to Virgil instead... and while I don't really see that potential battle being much better, it probably would have been marginally more bearable because it would have been a real 6v6 and Virgil isn't a fucking idiot like Cameron. Which just gives me another reason to hate how the Unova League turned out.

    Anyway, I'm more or less agreeing with what you're saying. I hate the concept of Tobias more than the character himself, as his battle with Ash was well executed and succeeded in making Ash look good... and was really the only suitable alternative to having Ash/Paul in the finals.

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  13. #28
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Sinnoh because he had to beat a guy with 2 legendaries on his team.

    Honorary mention: Kanto because he had to beat his twin and didn't :o
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  14. #29
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees4life View Post
    Sinnoh because he had to beat a guy with 2 legendaries on his team.

    Honorary mention: Kanto because he had to beat his twin and didn't :o
    Seriously?

    At least in Sinnoh he went out with a bang. In Unova he went out with ... ugh, he simply sucked. -.-

  15. #30
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    Default Re: The Worst League Loss For Ash?

    Unova by far. I'll be blunt and basically in one line by Shinneth state how I feel about it:

    Shinneth (In reference to Ash v Cameron): "There was not one thing I liked about that battle; not a single thing my brain registers as a positive - something I can at least do for Ash's other League losses."

    I'm even one of the few who likes Black and White, and I hated the League. That should really be a good indication of how poor it was.
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