Thread: When will the entire Best Wishes saga end?

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

That's why I said the writers drove themselves into a corner for a few reasons:

- BW was already the attempt to do a new Kanto. Iris and Cilan have similar roles to Misty and Brock. If both leave, are we going to have Misty 3.0 and Brock 3.0 replace them?

I really hope not. I'd prefer to either have Cilan around for another generation and a new beginning female trainer or introduce a new male character with the beginning female trainer.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

- Contests have remained gone in BW2, I don't think they'll return in Gen 6. I think its obvious they've been retired in the games for new sidequests, and the anime won't bring them back.

I don't think anyone expected Contests to return in B2/W2. Honestly, I still think it's quite possible for Contests to return in the next generation. It isn't like they haven't brought back features from previous games before. Though, if a new sidequest comes up in the sixth generation games that a female character could participate in, I'd probably be fine with that. I don't know what they could do that wouldn't be too similar to Contests, but that would be better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

- Another female beginning trainer is equally redundant. We'd have to sit through a rookie female making the same mistakes and going through the same development May and Dawn did, which already got old by the time Dawn was introduced

That honestly sounds better than what they did with Iris and what I think would continue if they don't go back to the beginning female trainer method. At least she would actually have a chance for development and believable progress in her journey. Plus, while both May and Dawn were introduced as beginning trainers, they were both handled pretty differently, so I don't see why they couldn't do that with another female beginning trainer. The writers also wouldn't really factor in people who had saw both May and Dawn develop in their respective series since they would be outside of the target audience by the time the sixth generation series comes out. Being repetitive hasn't really stopped something in Pokemon from happening before anyway.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

- Cilan is very popular in Japan, what's the point of bothering with a new male sidekick who might bomb like Tracey did? Replacing Brock was a stroke of luck, I don't think it'll work a third time,

I still think it's entirely possible that he could stick around a bit longer due the popularity of the character and his Japanese voice actor. Though, that probably also depends on if there's a character early on in the new games that could take his place.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

- What about TR? What is going to happen with them?

Personally, I'm hoping that they get their personalities back and return to being entertaining and light-hearted villains.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

It looks like a disaster is coming and I don't want to be around for the imposing trainwreck.

I'm not sure if a disaster is coming from ending BW in a year necessarily, especially when the writing quality in this series hasn't been that great to begin with.

Fun fact: The last time we only had a 3-year saga was Johto, but since Johto was kinda a loose continuation of Kanto/Orange, it wasn't that big a change.

But with BW being a 3-year region, all these new characters and rivals will be gone, as well as Ash's Unova Pokemon. They barely feel developed to me.

Since many people say how Game freak might be pressured by Nintendo to make new games as soon as possible Best Wishes might not last for 4 years like DP or Hoenn did and in a way OS since gen 2 was sequel from first generation.

Revelation of Keldeo, Meloetta and Genesect in relatively short period of time also indicates how this generation wont last as long as people originally expected it would.
I could see whole Best Wishes series ending somewhere at fall of 2013 with new games usually being released around September. Meaning how after Unova league and short filler arc finish anime would probably step in next generation.

I doubt there will be any remakes soon happening either being unlikely for remakes of RS to be released this early and unless Nintendo and Gamefreak for some reason postpon release of 6th gen until 2014, or don't manage to make new games until than still having some plans to do with Best Wishes which would warrant BW series lasting for 2 more years, this might indeed be shortest lived cast we had in anime so far. Which would support fans theory how each new female will last shorter than previous one did(in this case male too, if Cilan leaves).

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

- BW was already the attempt to do a new Kanto. Iris and Cilan have similar roles to Misty and Brock. If both leave, are we going to have Misty 3.0 and Brock 3.0 replace them?

Hard to believe that, when BW was anything like Kanto was being worse in quality at least imo and not nearly as funny. Also aside from supporting role they play, Iris and Cilan are nothing like Misty and Brock were in personality aside from one or two sharing traits not being mentors to Ash with Iris being possibly least developed female protagonist out of all girls we had so far in show.

Its pity really, because this region might end up as least memorable out of them all but i don't think it was that bad at all. I actually enjoyed in it regardless of flaws which were made(not like every region didn't had them).

If they indeed decide to add another pair of gym leaders though, whats the point in doing rehash number 3? It would be better than if they brought Misty and Brock back instead since they proved to be very popular and well received having potential to offer more. Many people want their reunion, so this could bring boost to ratings too being nice to see sequel with previous companions done for once instead of starting all over again with predictable, boring scenery.

- Contests have remained gone in BW2, I don't think they'll return in Gen 6. I think its obvious they've been retired in the games for new sidequests, and the anime won't bring them back.

Agreed, it was time for contests to go starting to be too repetitive and stale for my taste. Not to mention i would rather want that writers develop girls in other ways instead of turning everyone in coordinators doing repeat of AG and DP, which would just be sign of their incapability to come up with something else other than contests. That is not creative way to write some show.

- Cilan is very popular in Japan, what's the point of bothering with a new male sidekick who might bomb like Tracey did? Replacing Brock was a stroke of luck, I don't think it'll work a third time,

I don't think popularity plays that much role in character stay or not. Misty or May for example were massively popular as characters too with people wanting them stay, but that hardly influenced writers in any way still replacing them.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Fun fact: The last time we only had a 3-year saga was Johto, but since Johto was kinda a loose continuation of Kanto/Orange, it wasn't that big a change.

I think it actually kind of was a big change considering that neither Kanto or the Orange Islands lasted that long. They both lasted for about more or less a year. Since Ash initially went to Johto to deliver the GS Ball, which was brought up at the end of Kanto, I don't think it was a loose continuation, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

But with BW being a 3-year region, all these new characters and rivals will be gone, as well as Ash's Unova Pokemon. They barely feel developed to me.

Yeah, the majority of characters and rivalries feel pretty underdeveloped. I think it's a shame when they could have been handled better if things had worked out differently, like not giving Ash so many Pokemon and actually doing more with the rivalries, instead of practically all of them going nowhere fast. Hopefully, the remaining episodes can let BW end on a better note. I don't know how likely that is and it certainly wouldn't make up for the overall quality, but it would be nice.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

I doubt there will be any remakes soon happening either being unlikely for remakes of RS to be released this early and unless Nintendo and Gamefreak for some reason postpon release of 6th gen until 2014, or don't manage to make new games until than still having some plans to do with Best Wishes which would warrant BW series lasting for 2 more years, this might indeed be shortest lived cast we had in anime so far. Which would support fans theory how each new female will last shorter than previous one did(in this case male too, if Cilan leaves).

As much as I would like to see R/S remakes sooner rather than later, I also don't think that they'll release them either. If they had shown a Hoenn Pokemon in the trailer and Genesect wasn't going to be available this early, then I could see remakes more as a possibility, but they'll probably save them for after the sixth generation games come out. Nintendo would probably want to have new Pokemon games for the 3DS to boost the sales even more and I don't see why either Nintendo or Game Freak would want to delay it for another year at this point. I thought that Dawn actually lasted longer than May, only by a few episodes though, but I could be mistaken.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Agreed, it was time for contests to go starting to be too repetitive and stale for my taste. Not to mention i would rather want that writers develop girls in other ways instead of turning everyone in coordinators doing repeat of AG and DP, which would just be sign of their incapability to come up with something else other than contests. That is not creative way to write some show.

While I wasn't a huge fan of DP Contests when they were premiering, they seem to be better as I've been rewatching DP. It's probably the whole not appreciating something until it's gone and in this case, that would refer to the effort put into writing Dawn's character to make her develop as a Coordinator and believable which is completely gone with Iris. Anyway, I honestly wouldn't mind if they did return to having another female Coordinator in the group. By the time BW ends, it would be long enough to where the target audience isn't that familiar to the concept of Contests and the writers could work on a third female Coordinator differently than they did for Dawn and May. Honestly, considering how they've handled Iris, I think it's pretty clear that they can't think of a way to show a character's growth in a believable way without a goal like Gym battles or Contests and I definitely don't want to see them try to work on another female character like Iris again. Though, it would obviously depend on if Contests appear in the next generation of games and while I do think that's entirely possible, it is probably more likely that they'll have a different sidequest. As long as it gives the female character something to do and she's nothing like Iris, then I'd be okay with that.

Originally Posted by Hidden Mew

As much as I would like to see R/S remakes sooner rather than later, I also don't think that they'll release them either. If they had shown a Hoenn Pokemon in the trailer and Genesect wasn't going to be available this early, then I could see remakes more as a possibility, but they'll probably save them for after the sixth generation games come out. Nintendo would probably want to have new Pokemon games for the 3DS to boost the sales even more and I don't see why either Nintendo or Game Freak would want to delay it for another year at this point. I thought that Dawn actually lasted longer than May, only by a few episodes though, but I could be mistaken.

There are some rumors how they might be released somewhere in 6th generation during 2015 or later, but nothing has been confirmed being only speculation i encountered from some fans. However when they happen i believe may might have some chance to appear for them.

About Dawn i think difference was one or two episodes but im not completely sure, needs to check out.

While I wasn't a huge fan of DP Contests when they were premiering, they seem to be better as I've been rewatching DP. It's probably the whole not appreciating something until it's gone and in this case, that would refer to the effort put into writing Dawn's character to make her develop as a Coordinator and believable which is completely gone with Iris. Anyway, I honestly wouldn't mind if they did return to having another female Coordinator in the group. By the time BW ends, it would be long enough to where the target audience isn't that familiar to the concept of Contests and the writers could work on a third female Coordinator differently than they did for Dawn and May. Honestly, considering how they've handled Iris, I think it's pretty clear that they can't think of a way to show a character's growth in a believable way without a goal like Gym battles or Contests and I definitely don't want to see them try to work on another female character like Iris again. Though, it would obviously depend on if Contests appear in the next generation of games and while I do think that's entirely possible, it is probably more likely that they'll have a different sidequest. As long as it gives the female character something to do and she's nothing like Iris, then I'd be okay with that.

DP contests focused too much on appeal rounds and perfection of making attacks more flashy exaggerating with all those training episodes which made them more boring than interesting to people. I highly doubt new games will bring back contests with gamers usually expecting something new and different whenever new games are released, so im pretty sure Nintendo and Gamefreak wont suddenly stop with such trend. Besides imo it would feel like step back if anime went back to contests formula being uncreative and repetitive to constantly add new coordinators putting every female protagonists in same role instead of giving them different quests to follow providing variety in careers instead of giving out only one choice on table.

I don't think Iris is valid indication to go by how will girls with no sidequests being treated either, because its more her role in games that is causing such treatment of character from writers side, than anything else trying to rush as much as possible growth to mirror changes which happened in BW2 at cost of handling story of character rather poorly.

And while i know you hate this example being used, but Misty back than was treated better than Iris currently is showing that writers are capable if doing better job when they want(which says a lot because they were a lot more less experienced back than). Also fact that Cilan receives better treatment than Brock did also shows how they can do better job with supporting cast without a doubt.

Personally i would rather have one of older companions back(like Misty) doing sequel of someone story who has potential to offer more and interesting material to work with being more unpredictable, than just getting new female altogether. But since i know it wont happen, ill welcome anything as long as it isn't another coordinator in a row. I don0t mind if its sidekick role again either, because im sure writers could do better job than this time around depending on character goal and his position in games largely how he will be treated too.

p.s. Since i know we will never agree on this, while i respect your views my opinions wont change on this so let just stop while we can.

GLiscored brings up a good point, why end a saga so early when black and white 2 only just released? the 3DS can wait, anyways i say september 2013

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

There are some rumors how they might be released somewhere in 6th generation during 2015 or later, but nothing has been confirmed being only speculation i encountered from some fans. However when they happen i believe may might have some chance to appear for them.

About Dawn i think difference was one or two episodes but im not completely sure, needs to check out.

I've heard similar speculation release dates for the games and I think that May could reappear whenever they are released as well.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

DP contests focused too much on appeal rounds and perfection of making attacks more flashy exaggerating with all those training episodes which made them more boring than interesting to people. I highly doubt new games will bring back contests with gamers usually expecting something new and different whenever new games are released, so im pretty sure Nintendo and Gamefreak wont suddenly stop with such trend. Besides imo it would feel like step back if anime went back to contests formula being uncreative and repetitive to constantly add new coordinators putting every female protagonists in same role instead of giving them different quests to follow providing variety in careers instead of giving out only one choice on table.

While the appeals sometimes went a bit overboard with how flashy they could be, they were an improvement over the appeal rounds in AG and there were a quite a few appeals that were quite good. The training episodes didn't seem that boring to me and it helped to show Dawn's progression in a believable manner. I don't really think that it's that unlikely for the games to reintroduce Contests. They brought back the day-and-night feature in D/P after they got rid of it for some reason in the third generation. While that might not be on the same level as bringing back Contests, it does show that they'll willing to bring back features after they've disappeared. They could easily add some new aspect to Contests in the games to make it feel like a different experience from how they were in R/S/E and D/P/Pl. Contests in the video games could use improving anyway and I think it is possible. There probably are better chances for a new sidequest, but I don't think Contests returning would be that much of a stretch. Honestly, I don't think it would be a step backwards for the anime to go back to using Contests or necessarily uncreative. It honestly couldn't be worse than how they handled Iris' character. And trying out something different wouldn't necessarily be any better either. I wouldn't mind if they tried to do something different with a new sidequest goal for the female character to participate in, but I'm also perfectly content with the writers returning to using Contests.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

I don't think Iris is valid indication to go by how will girls with no sidequests being treated either, because its more her role in games that is causing such treatment of character from writers side, than anything else trying to rush as much as possible growth to mirror changes which happened in BW2 at cost of handling story of character rather poorly.

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. We have no idea as to when the writers knew about Iris being the Champion in B2/W2 and aside from maybe getting a Dragonite, I don't think that we can say for sure that the quality of her writing is the result of her role in the games. Even if we could, I don't think it would matter in the long run simply because anime Iris is different from video game Iris, just like Bianca, Brock, and Misty are different from their video game counterparts. It isn't necessary at all to make Iris look so strong in the anime just because she's the Champion in the new games due to how different they are. Bianca is still a primarily comedy relief rival in the series, but I'm pretty sure she's not like that in the new games. Honestly, it would make the writing around Iris feel a bit worse if that was the reason she's been glorified and everything has been resolved for her, especially when they had established her immense amount of flaws early on in the series. Considering that, unlike with Misty, the writers had plenty of experience with developing female characters and had gotten better with how they handled them in each new series, the way Iris turned out feels like a perfectly valid indication to how girls with no sidequests would be treated. At the very least, Iris' treatment does not give me any hope for another female character without a battle active sidequest would turn out any better.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

And while i know you hate this example being used, but Misty back than was treated better than Iris currently is showing that writers are capable if doing better job when they want(which says a lot because they were a lot more less experienced back than). Also fact that Cilan receives better treatment than Brock did also shows how they can do better job with supporting cast without a doubt.

I wouldn't say I hate the example being used. I tried to avoid mentioning Misty in my last post, mainly because I didn't want this to focus on older characters, but oh well. Honestly, I don't think that Misty being treated better than Iris currently is doesn't really say that much, even with how less experienced they were back then, simply because one could make a pretty good argument that all of the characters, except for maybe Tracey, have been handled better than Iris. Plus, Misty wasn't handled that much better. She was still rather underdeveloped, most of her team ended up pretty forgettable, there was barely anything done during the course of the series and she felt like she was just there. The only things I can think of that she has over Iris is that she feels like she has a bit more of a role in the original series, though still not by much, and she felt like she was friends with Ash and Brock. As for Cilan, they don't put him in the background nearly as often as they did with Brock and he has a more entertaining personality. I still don't really think that it means that they can do a better job with the supporting cast without a doubt since if that were the case, then Iris wouldn't have turned out nearly as bad as she did, Champion in the games or not.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Personally i would rather have one of older companions back(like Misty) doing sequel of someone story who has potential to offer more and interesting material to work with being more unpredictable, than just getting new female altogether. But since i know it wont happen, ill welcome anything as long as it isn't another coordinator in a row. I don0t mind if its sidekick role again either, because im sure writers could do better job than this time around depending on character goal and his position in games largely how he will be treated too.

Technically speaking, this wouldn't be the third Coordinator in a row due to Iris. Oddly enough, I'd welcome just about anything that was not another female sidekick. With the two female sidekick characters they've used so far, Misty and Iris, I thought that they weren't compelling at all. I couldn't care less about Misty, even when I first watched the series. I didn't hate her and I still don't, but nothing about the character appealed to me and nothing made me want to cheer for the few times she did do something to strengthen her skills or try to reach her goal. Iris is pretty similar in that regard, except even more annoying, downright unlikable and the writing around her is so frustrating to see, although it probably helps that it's more recent compared to Misty. At least with a goal like Contests, the female character would have to get more focus and work more on reaching their goal in a believable manner. Not to mention with both May and Dawn, I thought that their quests were more engaging than both Misty and Iris's journeys combined, despite not being a huge fan of Dawn's. The way they've handled Iris has pretty much crushed my hope that they could make even a decent female sidekick character. I also still think that their role in the games shouldn't have a huge effect on their position in the anime if the anime version is significantly different like Iris is.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

p.s. Since i know we will never agree on this, while i respect your views my opinions wont change on this so let just stop while we can.

I know that your opinions won't change and mine won't either. I don't comment on forums to change people's opinions and I almost feel offended to that, but to express mine and discuss with other people about the shows I watch while being respectful of their opinions, whether or not I agree with them. But considering that almost all of our discussions have gone around in circles and I'm worried that we're going off-topic here, especially with the comparing Misty with Iris bit, I'm content with stopping the discussion as well.

Originally Posted by ❤Haruka❤

GLiscored brings up a good point, why end a saga so early when black and white 2 only just released? the 3DS can wait, anyways i say september 2013

There are actually quite a few reasons/signs to end the generation, and by extension the series, this early. B2/W2 may have just come out, but they were released early enough in Japan so that they could be released internationally in the same year. They've revealed all of the last few legendary Pokemon with Genesect being available in August. The anime has been moving at a much faster pace than it has been in the last couple of series, although that still feels more of a sign now with the other two factors mentioned above. I don't think that the 3DS can wait when there's really no need to stall. Not to mention it would probably help out the sales for the 3DS to put a main series Pokemon title on it. I don't know how the sales for the 3DS are exactly compared to the DS, but I imagine that Nintendo and possibly Game Freak would want Pokemon on the system sooner rather than later. They could release another couple of spin-off titles, a fifth generation Ranger game would be pretty cool, but there still seems to be more signs that the sixth generation is coming at this point. Besides that, if the BW series ends in September 2013, then the new series would be taking its place anyway.

Why is everyone saying the 3DS sales are low Mario current holding the it afloat as he patiently waits for pokemon to arrive because apparently the 3DS is doing better than the competition even the DS since last holiday in japan alone.

Anyways back on topic with the recent failing ratings and poor/pointless character development that BW has, the writers might(hopefully) become desperate enough to try bringing back the original team(Ash Brock and Misty) for the next saga

You guys also need to think about the fact that May and Dawn's contests helped extend their respective sagas without making them full of ridiculous fillers. There are no contests or other secondary goal this time, so it is perfectly plausible that BW will end in three years rather than four like the Johto saga.

That shall be detirmened.

The Nintendo DS might be discontinued soon, judging by the fact that the sales for the DSi and DSiLL in Japan are quite low. As I expect the DS series to be discontinued by either 2013 or 2014, maybe 2015, then maybe the next gen of Pokémon will be in one of those years. I'd say 2013 or 2014. If Game Freak goes back to the September forumla (9/XX), then by 2013. If they go to the June formula (6/XX), then by 2013. Since the Genesect movie still has to come out, I expect for Best Wishes to end by July 2013, if the new gen games came out by June 2013. If not, then Best Wishes would end by September 2013. But if Game Freak decides to make RSE remakes for this generation (haha, like that happening), then by 2014 to make way for a Battle Frontier 2.0. But if the Pokémon League is made early, there could be a Battle Frontier-like thing for the World Tournament.

And by the time Movie 16 is released, the new gen games are released. Meaning BW will be done in a few episodes.

My thoughts.

Originally Posted by Hidden Mew

While the appeals sometimes went a bit overboard with how flashy they could be, they were an improvement over the appeal rounds in AG and there were a quite a few appeals that were quite good. The training episodes didn't seem that boring to me and it helped to show Dawn's progression in a believable manner. I don't really think that it's that unlikely for the games to reintroduce Contests. They brought back the day-and-night feature in D/P after they got rid of it for some reason in the third generation. While that might not be on the same level as bringing back Contests, it does show that they'll willing to bring back features after they've disappeared. They could easily add some new aspect to Contests in the games to make it feel like a different experience from how they were in R/S/E and D/P/Pl. Contests in the video games could use improving anyway and I think it is possible. There probably are better chances for a new sidequest, but I don't think Contests returning would be that much of a stretch. Honestly, I don't think it would be a step backwards for the anime to go back to using Contests or necessarily uncreative. It honestly couldn't be worse than how they handled Iris' character. And trying out something different wouldn't necessarily be any better either. I wouldn't mind if they tried to do something different with a new sidequest goal for the female character to participate in, but I'm also perfectly content with the writers returning to using Contests.

Honestly i certainly didn't had need to watch all those ribbons, flashy ball capsules and seals, all that dressing up creating contra effect with me and several people out there taking away from appeal and making them more boring. People were getting sick of contests by mid Sinnoh and i remember that many were excited to find out how new female companion wont be just another coordinator pursuing different quests.
All those training episodes didn't helped ether. There is such thing as exaggeration and writers definitely went overboard with all that practicing for appeals and training making DP more dull with people losing interest, instead of cutting down on this things ad use focus more productively(such as giving more attention to Brock).

I can't see contests coming back in games, let alone in anime as secondary quest ever again being replaced for a reason. It would be pathetic and completely uncreative to introduce one region without them, just to go back to old concept one generation later which would risk not only drop of sales considering how gamers wouldn't be given something new and fresh they eagerly anticipated, but it would also drove away people interest feeling underwhelming to go back to old concept making it seem like game producers and writers due to sheer laziness couldn't come up with something new and original, rather reverting back to same old song and dance.

Not to mention what kind of message does it send to kids out there, if only career which female characters have on disposal to pursue in this show and actively advance are only contests being discriminating, not providing any variety between cast and chance that girls grow forward in different ways as trainers advancing through different quests for a change.

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. We have no idea as to when the writers knew about Iris being the Champion in B2/W2 and aside from maybe getting a Dragonite, I don't think that we can say for sure that the quality of her writing is the result of her role in the games. Even if we could, I don't think it would matter in the long run simply because anime Iris is different from video game Iris, just like Bianca, Brock, and Misty are different from their video game counterparts. It isn't necessary at all to make Iris look so strong in the anime just because she's the Champion in the new games due to how different they are. Bianca is still a primarily comedy relief rival in the series, but I'm pretty sure she's not like that in the new games. Honestly, it would make the writing around Iris feel a bit worse if that was the reason she's been glorified and everything has been resolved for her, especially when they had established her immense amount of flaws early on in the series. Considering that, unlike with Misty, the writers had plenty of experience with developing female characters and had gotten better with how they handled them in each new series, the way Iris turned out feels like a perfectly valid indication to how girls with no sidequests would be treated. At the very least, Iris' treatment does not give me any hope for another female character without a battle active sidequest would turn out any better.

We know that writers plan things several months in advance, being likely aware of Iris position in games much more than any of us had opportunity to find out giving them time to prepare for it. There is a reason why they portrayed Iris as highly knowledgeable trainer about dragon types knowing already how to reach to their hearts with Druddigon or Deino.

She was on purpose portrayed as trainer prodigy which was miles away than most of her peers are at much younger age than Ash even received his first pokemon, intensively training and battling left and right with Excadrill scoring clean record of 99 wins in a row without single lose until she encountered dragon master Drayden which break that pattern. There is a reason why she breezed through don tournament like joke defeating Ash relatively easy despite having leagues of experience and hard work behind himself.

During whole course of BW writers were trying to portray Iris as highly competent and skilled trainer which doesn't need much training and work anymore with unexpected Dragonite capture, being only further confirmation to their plans of trying to make Iris as stronger as possible in short period of time to allow that character in near future becomes champion or at very least someone apprentice eventually taking over such position.

Yes writers don't have to follow game canon, but it was showed with newer sagas how anime stick with games much more than it used to be case before, being possibly another reason why they are building up on Iris team in extremely rushed and poorly planned manner.

That is main reason why character isn't properly developed with changes in games being top priority for writers as it seems.

Considering how changes in games might have left writers at first unprepared never being that good at planning, Iris growth doesn't serve in any way as guidance or indication how would other female protagonists which don't do contests be treated because not everyone becomes champion in games forcing writers to rush things that much to fulfill requirements for changes eventually transferring to anime , and on large part it also depends on character goal in what way his development is going to flow.

With Misty and Whirl Cup they showed how they are capable of coming up with believable and original benchmarks through which her growth could be followed, but since they were largely inexperienced at that time it happened too late.

With Iris they never bothered to create something similar because her goal and types she use can't support it. Partially due to lack of dragon types being very rare not being possible to do sustainable story arc by relying only on said type hence explaining why she was given pokemon of other types, and because of her position in games taking priority with recent changes.

Treatment of A character, doesn't necessarily mean B character would be treated in similar manner.

I wouldn't say I hate the example being used. I tried to avoid mentioning Misty in my last post, mainly because I didn't want this to focus on older characters, but oh well. Honestly, I don't think that Misty being treated better than Iris currently is doesn't really say that much, even with how less experienced they were back then, simply because one could make a pretty good argument that all of the characters, except for maybe Tracey, have been handled better than Iris. Plus, Misty wasn't handled that much better. She was still rather underdeveloped, most of her team ended up pretty forgettable, there was barely anything done during the course of the series and she felt like she was just there. The only things I can think of that she has over Iris is that she feels like she has a bit more of a role in the original series, though still not by much, and she felt like she was friends with Ash and Brock. As for Cilan, they don't put him in the background nearly as often as they did with Brock and he has a more entertaining personality. I still don't really think that it means that they can do a better job with the supporting cast without a doubt since if that were the case, then Iris wouldn't have turned out nearly as bad as she did, Champion in the games or not.

It says a lot because despite mr. Shudo not being amicable toward character along with added fact of writers inexperience they still managed to do a whole better job with Misty growth, than they are doing with Iris currently. Misty had no long term rivals, her goal of water master wasn't much focused upon(until last season she was in) and she still actually dealt with struggles being called out on flaws gradually growing as character gaining some significant growth. She worked hard for every pokemon she got, she managed to get over complex of feeling less worthy becoming more independent and responsible as character coming out of sisters shadow, she improved as trainer in believable manner not giving fully evolved pokemon in last minute starting to beat everyone left and right etc.

She is prime example how writers are capable of doing better job with female sidekicks, and i presume main reason behind way Iris is developed is solely because of huge importance and role her game counterpart plays in games with writers probably finding insulting to character and game canon to portray anime version much behind.

If they can do better job with male sidekicks which are known for always getting least development and focus, and if they already showed of being capable of doing better job with previous females than issue isn't really in writers not knowing, but not wanting.
If Iris wasn't champion in games im completely sure her growth would flow in completely different manner than its case now. She was on one hand blessed receiving suddenly so much importance, but on other hand bad lucked too because this put pressure on writing staff taking away from properly planned and well executed path through which growth will happen.

Changes in games often influenced this show causing rushed leagues and sagas, poor development of characters and butchered plots(list is too long to mention everything here), so yes i believe games are on large part responsible for Iris treatment.

BW2 games and champion role are obviously main reason behind this, no point denying it anymore with latest info of Iris breezing through Junior Cup only further confirming it. Its not so much writers fault, but obligation they need to do with Iris toward Nintendo and Game freak with champion role being too big to just ignore it.

Champions are always big deal in games ad anime, with writers not having choice but to reflect this on anime canon as well no matter how rushed and poorly planned it may be.

Technically speaking, this wouldn't be the third Coordinator in a row due to Iris. Oddly enough, I'd welcome just about anything that was not another female sidekick. With the two female sidekick characters they've used so far, Misty and Iris, I thought that they weren't compelling at all. I couldn't care less about Misty, even when I first watched the series. I didn't hate her and I still don't, but nothing about the character appealed to me and nothing made me want to cheer for the few times she did do something to strengthen her skills or try to reach her goal. Iris is pretty similar in that regard, except even more annoying, downright unlikable and the writing around her is so frustrating to see, although it probably helps that it's more recent compared to Misty. At least with a goal like Contests, the female character would have to get more focus and work more on reaching their goal in a believable manner. Not to mention with both May and Dawn, I thought that their quests were more engaging than both Misty and Iris's journeys combined, despite not being a huge fan of Dawn's. The way they've handled Iris has pretty much crushed my hope that they could make even a decent female sidekick character. I also still think that their role in the games shouldn't have a huge effect on their position in the anime if the anime version is significantly different like Iris is.

Depends how you look at it. Misty was my favorite character because of incredibly versatile and engaging personality being able to work well with just about any group, because of sad back story, unique dreams which offered several ways through which whole thing could be taken and fact that she had to work hard for everything she accomplished not being easy for her. I liked May and Dawn too because with contests they brought something new and unseen to show , enjoying in growth they made as coordinators. While with Iris i have mixed feelings liking character itself, but being disappointed with way she is currently treated.

I don't have anything against girl sidekicks and if we receive another female with smaller role, because often less is more and character doesn't need a lot of screen time to have believable and good growth. Iris isn't good example to measure thing out, and i believe past examples i brought up proves that.

When it comes to older companions i would welcome both May or Dawn return to cast, but im open toward Misty return as well because she was great character and wasn't fleshed out enough being interested to see her grow forward making it easy for writers, since they already have base to pick upon and do sequel.

This is i guess difference between us which will never change so while i respect your views im not agreeing with them.

I know that your opinions won't change and mine won't either. I don't comment on forums to change people's opinions and I almost feel offended to that, but to express mine and discuss with other people about the shows I watch while being respectful of their opinions, whether or not I agree with them. But considering that almost all of our discussions have gone around in circles and I'm worried that we're going off-topic here, especially with the comparing Misty with Iris bit, I'm content with stopping the discussion as well.

If you feel offended than my apologies because this wasn't my intention, just wanted to explain where we stand.
Im afraid we started to weer of topic too, so from my part im willing to stop this discussion as well.

p.s. So ill agree to disagree with you on this.


@Callisto: Johto lasted only 3 years. Sinnoh was in reality only saga which was four years long being too stretched out and series suffered from lack of side arc imo.

Originally Posted by ❤Haruka❤

GLiscored brings up a good point, why end a saga so early when black and white 2 only just released?

Good question. I don't get it either. Why make new games with a new story & oh so many new elements if the generation is ending sooner than usual when a simple third version would've been less work?

But revealing the last Pokemon of the generation fairly close together just feels like some kind of sign...

Originally Posted by SammyW27

Originally Posted by ❤Haruka❤

GLiscored brings up a good point, why end a saga so early when black and white 2 only just released?

Good question. I don't get it either. Why make new games with a new story & oh so many new elements if the generation is ending sooner than usual when a simple third version would've been less work?

But revealing the last Pokemon of the generation fairly close together just feels like some kind of sign...

We're saying the gen will end in September 2013...which would mean BW2 would still get 1 year and 2 months of sales.

^ Oh! My mistake. I misread the origianl quote.

Still seems weird to me to make a totally new (main series) game for a shorter than normal Gen though

Originally Posted by SammyW27

Still seems weird to me to make a totally new (main series) game for a shorter than normal Gen though

They did it because Nintendo told them that they had to do something more original than a third version, which would have been a lazy rehash regardless of the generation's length.

Why make new games with a new story & oh so many new elements

Oh so many elements? Perhaps compared to a third version, but the sequels are hardly full with new content; HGSS were reportedly harder to develop despite the recycled story. It is not that hard to come up with a new plot that relies on the same basic formula, setting and characters from previous games.