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  1. #61

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    You're right, though, I wouldn't miss them if I never had heard them...the TPCi VAs would've probably grown on me far more easily if I didn't always compare the 4Kids VAs to them, and get frustrated with them as a result of this sometimes.
    It's more than likely that they would have used more 4Kids voice actors. They are freelance voice actors, so they work for whoever hires them, so they could have worked for both TPCI and 4Kids. The voice actors who used to do work for 4Kids did work for shows that 4Kids had no involvement anyway. You'd also probably be nostalgic for whoever TPCI picked for their cast since they'd be around from the start of the series. The voice actors would have an easier time since they wouldn't be trying to sound like the 4Kids cast like some of them did at the start of Battle Frontier. Besides that, they would have had to get someone else to play Ash since Sarah was only eighteen when they started work on Battle Frontier, which would at least give Veronica Taylor more of a chance to play Ash had TPCI started dubbing from the start.
    True, true. They are all freelance VAs who can work for both companies, which is why I never understood what was up with the whole "two-year contract" thing that supposedly people have said either a) 4Kids imposed on the actors, b) TPCi made up to save money, or c) either the old VAs or current VAs lied about in the first place. Ugh...the whole switch was a messy affair to say the least. It was like dubbing politics or something...my head's spinning just thinking about it.

    Though, I will admit, I did kinda like the whole "4Kids style" of dialogue for characters more as well. Ash and Team Rocket in particular I felt were so much more...realistic...prior to the dub switch in my eyes. True, their voices changed, but I feel their manner of speaking changed even more. Before they felt so much more like actual...like really relatable, human beings. In BW, Ash feels normal again in this regard to me, and TRio did as well when they were serious this saga. But from Episode N onward, the dub has made them go back to spouting excessive alliterations and rhymes. TPCi made these four so much more cartoony to me, I guess. I really liked how 4Kids handled Ash and Team Rocket's characterizations. xD.

    On the other hand, I felt 4Kids and TPCi's dialogue for Brock, Misty, May, Max, and others were very similar. In that respect, I've liked both 4Kids and TPCi equally.

    Though, for me, a positive note these days is that I kinda feel TPCi's been shifting towards the older "4Kids style" more in BW than in prior sagas they dubbed. For example, the script writers have recently stopped Ash from dropping his n's and g's all the time, which is something they commonly did in both the BF and DP dub seasons. He's also started using the word "buddy" a lot more. I'm quite happy with their handling of Ash this saga in the English dub. Team Rocket was good again (until Episode N, IMO), but I'll probably get used to them sooner or later. :)

    Anyway, sorry about going off like that (xD), but getting back on topic, we'll really never know how it would've been if TPCi handled the dub from the beginning. It's kinda like asking how the dub would be like if 4Kids handled it from Battle Frontier to the present day. In either case, it could've been better, or it could've been worse. Sadly, we'll never know.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 9th May 2013 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by VeggiePopper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? Characters popularity does not change from country to country.
    Oh boy, you're so wrong, it does. One big example: Tingle from the Legend of Zelda series. The Japanese love him, Americans hate him to death. As for the Pokémon franchise, Piplup, if I remember correctly, was very popular in Japan during the DP era but was disliked in America. So it is reasonable that Misty was more popular in the US than in Japan and thus the dub writers wanted to make some references to her every now and then to please the fans.

    Also, I think the Misty additions (which anyway were inserted in the Mexican dub too as it is based on the US dub) were fine. They added continuity to the show and give us the impression that Ash did value his friends instead of the treatment the original script gives to old characters, who usually are simply forgotten once they leave and are never mentioned again, leaving the impression that after their departure at the end of a series, Ash's memories are erased (much like Pikachu's powers), only remembering them suddenly when said characters return for the 3-episode mini-arc (Wallace Cup et al).

    It is interesting that you complain about the Misty additions on the English script, when most of the time you complain about not enough Misty. You should get your mind made up, or do you just complain for the sake of having something to complain about?
    Misty's popularity in the US is the same as it is in Japan. Considering Brock was brought back because dub fans preferred him over Tracey, its safe to say if the Japanese thought Misty was more popular in the US she wouldn't have been phased out of the anime afterward.

    There's a reason why the writers decided early/mid AG not to revive Misty and/or revive the original trio. Deep down we all know what that reason is even if some people don't want to admit it. These last 10 years of the anime wouldn't have played out the way they did otherwise.

  3. #63
    Super Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    True, true. They are all freelance VAs who can work for both companies, which is why I never understood what was up with the whole "two-year contract" thing that supposedly people have said either a) 4Kids imposed on the actors, b) TPCi made up to save money, or c) either the old VAs or current VAs lied about in the first place. Ugh...the whole switch was a messy affair to say the least. It was like dubbing politics or something...my head's spinning just thinking about it.
    Yeah, that was one messier part of that situation. It was most likely an attempt to save money since if TPCI wanted to keep the cast, they would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN
    Anyway, sorry about going off like that (xD), but getting back on topic, we'll really never know how it would've been if TPCi handled the dub from the beginning. It's kinda like asking how the dub would be like if 4Kids handled it from Battle Frontier to the present day. In either case, it could've been better, or it could've been worse. Sadly, we'll never know.
    I think that would have been easier to determine due to how 4Kids handled the series for the first eight season and the fact that they handled other shows too. With TPCI, it's a bit more tricky due to how they haven't had any experience outside of Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Misty's popularity in the US is the same as it is in Japan. Considering Brock was brought back because dub fans preferred him over Tracey, its safe to say if the Japanese thought Misty was more popular in the US she wouldn't have been phased out of the anime afterward.

    There's a reason why the writers decided early/mid AG not to revive Misty and/or revive the original trio. Deep down we all know what that reason is even if some people don't want to admit it. These last 10 years of the anime wouldn't have played out the way they did otherwise.
    Brock was replaced because the people involved thought that Brock's design would be problematic, especially after the Jynx situation. Misty was replaced for marketing reasons, which is more important for a show like Pokemon. This barely has any connection to the topic and I don't want this turn into a Misty thread, if it hasn't already, so let's just drop it now.

  4. #64

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Yeah, that was one messier part of that situation. It was most likely an attempt to save money since if TPCI wanted to keep the cast, they would have.
    Unfortunately, that's probably the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I think that would have been easier to determine due to how 4Kids handled the series for the first eight season and the fact that they handled other shows too. With TPCI, it's a bit more tricky due to how they haven't had any experience outside of Pokemon.
    Yeah, I have to agree, actually. I mean, I don't think Pokemon would've ended up like the way 4Kids dubbed...One Piece...or anything, but that's a pretty valid point. TPCi is definitely harder to figure out since we've only seen their work on Pokemon so far. I never really thought of it that way. Good point. :)

  5. #65
    Super Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Yeah, I have to agree, actually. I mean, I don't think Pokemon would've ended up like the way 4Kids dubbed...One Piece...or anything, but that's a pretty valid point. TPCi is definitely harder to figure out since we've only seen their work on Pokemon so far. I never really thought of it that way. Good point. :)
    Only Pokemon Chronicles was on One Piece level of quality and even then it might have been slightly less bad considering I barely watched any of 4Kids One Piece, but it probably would be about the same. TPCI isn't going to do anything outside of Pokemon most likely, but since they don't have the kind of history that 4Kids had, it would be a bit harder to determine how TPCI would handle it from the start.

  6. #66

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Yeah, I have to agree, actually. I mean, I don't think Pokemon would've ended up like the way 4Kids dubbed...One Piece...or anything, but that's a pretty valid point. TPCi is definitely harder to figure out since we've only seen their work on Pokemon so far. I never really thought of it that way. Good point. :)
    Only Pokemon Chronicles was on One Piece level of quality and even then it might have been slightly less bad considering I barely watched any of 4Kids One Piece, but it probably would be about the same. TPCI isn't going to do anything outside of Pokemon most likely, but since they don't have the kind of history that 4Kids had, it would be a bit harder to determine how TPCI would handle it from the start.
    From what I recall, the Chronicles dub was a bit better than the 4Kids One Piece level of quality, but not as bad. Most of the dub eps were definitely poor, but there were a few Chronicles episodes I thought 4Kids actually dubbed well, so it was still better than how they handled One Piece, IMO.

    I think a good example of one I remember fondly was "We're No Angels!" I really liked that one in the dub. :D

    I do agree that it'd be tougher to measure how TPCi would do with the beginning of the series, seeing as Pokemon is the only dub they have done, and will probably ever really manage. Based on that alone, it is tougher to say, seeing how than how 4Kids handled some of their dubs in their latter years. Strangely enough, I did actually like the YGO 5D's dub 4Kids did (despite the editing and "Americanization")...until they pulled a YGO GX on us and didn't finish all 180 episodes but stopped at 155 or something. ^-^

  7. #67
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post

    Misty's popularity in the US is the same as it is in Japan. Considering Brock was brought back because dub fans preferred him over Tracey, its safe to say if the Japanese thought Misty was more popular in the US she wouldn't have been phased out of the anime afterward.

    There's a reason why the writers decided early/mid AG not to revive Misty and/or revive the original trio. Deep down we all know what that reason is even if some people don't want to admit it. These last 10 years of the anime wouldn't have played out the way they did otherwise.

    Brock's case is completely different, he wasn't brought back because of American popularity, let alone fan demand, but because the reason he was replaced became moot. He was replaced in the first place only because the anime writers feared he would not be liked by international audiences because of his Japanese squint eyes and dark skin, but once they found nobody had a problem with him, it wasn't needed replace him anymore, so he was simply brought back. Misty, on the other side, was replaced because of marketing reasons (see? That has nothing to do with Brock's case), as there was the need to have a character from the new games among the main cast (they didn't need this for the Johto saga as Misty and Brock appear in GSC too) to promote the current games; having the male protagonist (thus replacing Brock) would carry the risk of overshadowing Ash, so they went for the safer option and instead replaced Misty, therefore starting the tradition of replacing Ash's female companion with the current game's female protagonist. But this is off-topic, anyway.

    Back on topic, back in 1998 when the show was brought to the Americas, neither PUSA nor PCI existed (I think not even TPC existed at that time), so, if not 4Kids, the anime would still be handled by a third party instead of a Nintendo subsidiary. Therefore, there's also the possibility that instead of a localization closer to the original Japanese scripts (which seems to be the 'obvious' answer to this thread), we might had gotten an even worse one, like the early DBZ dubs.


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  8. #68
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by VeggiePopper View Post
    Back on topic, back in 1998 when the show was brought to the Americas, neither PUSA nor PCI existed (I think not even TPC existed at that time), so, if not 4Kids, the anime would still be handled by a third party instead of a Nintendo subsidiary. Therefore, there's also the possibility that instead of a localization closer to the original Japanese scripts (which seems to be the 'obvious' answer to this thread), we might had gotten an even worse one, like the early DBZ dubs.
    It's true that TPCI wasn't around back in 1998, but I think that it's possible that they could have created it earlier to handle the anime if they wanted to handle it themselves from the start instead of a third party company.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimeStack View Post
    I feel like it would have been a little bit more faithful to the Japanese version and maybe Team Rocket wouldn't be quite so 4kids-y, but that's it. Not everything 4kids did was done because of who they are, I think a lot of things in terms of censorship and localising names etc was because it was the 90's.

    And are 40 second intros really the fault of TCPi? I feel like intros have been getting shorter for a lot of contemporary shows due to the increase in commercial breaks.
    You are right about the short intros, there are network standards that they sometimes have to obey. and that is mostly that the openings have to be shorten.

  10. #70

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Hmm, that's a really interesting thought.

    There would definitely be less removal of Japanese cultural references; rice balls wouldn't become doughnuts or sandwiches, the Japanese lettering would get left in (I don't care if it's removed or not, though personally I find it really strange to have a lot of Japanese text around when the characters are speaking English and the show isn't taking place in Japan).
    There would also be less edits (though inevitably some things would have to be censored or removed, I don't think any episodes would be banned other than the Porygon episode, which got banned in Japan, so that doesn't count) and more effort would have been put into translating puns and jokes from the Japanese version. In general the dialogue would be closer to the Japanese version.

    They definitely wouldn't make as many errors (e.g. mixing up Pokemon names, like the way 4kids mixed up Alakazam and Scyther in the first movie-and that was one of the more egregious mix-ups), and more characters, even characters of the day, would keep their Japanese names or would be renamed to match their game counterparts (you wouldn't have errors like Eusine being called "Eugene" in Pokemon Chronicles).

    There would be less puns, but the puns would be worse. The dialogue wouldn't be nearly as entertaining (something I've noticed has happened) and voice acting would also be not as good.

    How about the reverse? What if TPCi had been dubbing the anime from the start and then switched to 4kids?
    I have a feeling all hell would've broken loose; that's exactly what happened in the Sonic fandom when the game voice actors were changed to match the anime voice actors.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    It'd probably be very similar to 4Kids' initial dub. There wouldn't be any legal issues with using the 4Kids voice actors, because... well, they wouldn't have worked for 4Kids. Any reason for them not working for TPCI (and there's definitely something, otherwise Jimmy Zoppi wouldn't have been blacklisted by 4Kids after jumping ship) would be gone.

    I wonder if they would have kept all of the music to begin with. My understanding is they replace the music now because of a contract 4Kids set up with John Loeffler or whoever to have him handle the music, and that transferred when TPCI took back the license. Perhaps it's misplaced optimism or trust but I feel like the company would like to retain the music, and since the show uses music from the games, they'd have more incentive to keep it to cross-promote the games or whatever.

    It'd be interesting also what effect this would have on Nintendo's further relationship with 4Kids. They also dubbed Kirby and F-Zero and gave them the typical 4Kids treatment (Pokemon got off pretty easy). Would Nintendo have dubbed them in-house and keep them more consistent with the games? It probably would have been better.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yash View Post
    I wonder if they would have kept all of the music to begin with. My understanding is they replace the music now because of a contract 4Kids set up with John Loeffler or whoever to have him handle the music, and that transferred when TPCI took back the license. Perhaps it's misplaced optimism or trust but I feel like the company would like to retain the music, and since the show uses music from the games, they'd have more incentive to keep it to cross-promote the games or whatever.
    No, they still wouldn't have kept the music. Ever wondered why nearly no anime dub retains its original music? It's because in Japan, musical scores are treated as that: music, and therefore they constitute, in Japanese laws and practices, a separate work from from the animation (or movie or TV series or whatever work the music is accompaining), thus, when a dubbing company intends to dub an anime series, it has to purchase both the series and the score and thus pay for them separately. Therefore, it becomes cheaper for the dubbing company to pay only for the series and hire an inhouse composer to write a new soundtrack.

    "My understanding is they replace the music now because of a contract 4Kids set up with John Loeffler or whoever to have him handle the music", yeah, just like TPCI respected the voice actors' contracts with 4Kids, right? If anything, had TPCI handled the dub since the start of the series, they would have still replaced the Japanese score, only that the American score would most probably be done by a different composer.
    Last edited by VeggiePopper; 13th May 2013 at 06:37 PM.


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  13. #73

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    I'm sure this has been said a million times before, but it would be done so much closer to the original Japanese if TAJ/PUSA did it from the start. The Team Rocket motto would be different, there would be no american cultural changes (Donuts? Really?), and maybe even the pokemon names would have stayed the same as the Japanese. The original theme songs might have been translated too. As far as the actual voice casting goes, I think the english voice cast would be awful...at least for the principle roles, anyway. No other voice actress but Veronica Taylor could voice Satoshi in such a passionate, heartfelt way. The pokemon would probably be left to the original Japanese actors.

    I gotta say, even though the 4kids made some silly mistakes and had bad translation jokes, their dubbing cast was strong. All the roles were casted perfectly for their characters. And the 4kids produced english CDs were lighthearted and fun. The movies' original score definitely should have stayed intact, though.

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  14. #74
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    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by nicolem_animefan View Post
    maybe even the pokemon names would have stayed the same as the Japanese. The pokemon would probably be left to the original Japanese actors.
    No and no. Pokémon names (just like everything that is taken directly from the games) have nothing to do with the anime, they're are translated by the games' localization team, not the dubbing company. Only anime exclusive characters' names are translated by the dubbing company. And even then, since the games give every character Western names, while it is logical that anime characters would get receive different names than the ones 4Kids gave them, they would still be English (or at least Weestern) names in order to fit with the other characters names. And since Pokémon names would be the same as they are, they wouldn't retain their Japanese cries.

    On translating the original Japanese songs for the English dub, just read my previous post (it's the one directly above yours) :D


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  15. #75

    Default Re: What would the dub be like if TPCi handled it from the beginning?

    Quote Originally Posted by VeggiePopper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nicolem_animefan View Post
    maybe even the pokemon names would have stayed the same as the Japanese. The pokemon would probably be left to the original Japanese actors.
    No and no. Pokémon names (just like everything that is taken directly from the games) have nothing to do with the anime, they're are translated by the games' localization team, not the dubbing company. Only anime exclusive characters' names are translated by the dubbing company. And even then, since the games give every character Western names, while it is logical that anime characters would get receive different names than the ones 4Kids gave them, they would still be English (or at least Weestern) names in order to fit with the other characters names. And since Pokémon names would be the same as they are, they wouldn't retain their Japanese cries.

    On translating the original Japanese songs for the English dub, just read my previous post (it's the one directly above yours) :D
    Oh, thanks for clearing that up! I'm sorry for the mistake xD; That makes sense that the those teams are separate. It is all about money in the end.

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