What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* something?

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    ロケット団よ永遠 Dogasu's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Default What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* something?

    Hikari was around for nine episodes (ten if you count the very end of the first "Season 2" episode) and...didn't really do much of anything. Satoshi now knows that her Hinoarashi evolved into Magmarashi and Hikari got to meet Iris and Dent, but other than that her appearance seemed really, really forced. I mean, yeah, she was only there to hype up the whole "we're bringing old things back to Isshu now!" thing that B2W2 was promoting so much, but other than that?

    We didn't find out how she did in Houen, she didn't catch any new pokemon, none of her existing pokemon evolved, she didn't help anyone else (i.e. she didn't use her experience with her Mammoo to help Iris out with her Kairyuu problem)...she could have skipped out on going to the Isshu region altogether and I don't think any of us would have been able to tell a difference.

    So, what do you think the writers could have done with Hikari to make her re-appearance actually mean something? Which of her pokemon would like to have seen evolve? Do you think it would have helped if she had caught something while she was in the Isshu region? What about telling us how her old rivals are doing? Letting us know how she did in Jouto / Houen? Telling us about her Mimiroll's modeling career? Getting a new outfit?
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    Le Noob The One and Only RA's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    Dawn's BW appearance had wasted potential. Her appearance was mostly because older characters are forced into the anime from time to time.
    On the bright side, her Piplup wasn't given too much attention.
    I would have liked Quilava to evolve. Of all the final starter forms in the anime, Typhlosion has had the least coverage.

    According to Masamitsu Hidaka's eye candy comment, Dawn's outfit is one of the main reasons for her existence.

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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    Her Buneary should have evolved, but I disagree with anyone who thinks that Dawn's Quilava should evolve before Ash's does. If that were to happen, it would just draw attention to the fact that unlike Dawn, Ash neglects his old Pokémon. Typhlosion as a species has been a very rare sight in the anime, so I hope that if we see it eventually, it will be Ash's. I didn't have a problem with May's Wartotle or Venusaur because at least Ash's Bulbasaur and Squirtle had never shown interest in evolution (the opposite happened in Bulbasaur's case).

    I can't say that I am interested in Dawn's continued career or rivals, but the fact that those elements were ignored is the epitome of bad writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogasu
    Hikari was around for nine episodes (ten if you count the very end of the first "Season 2" episode)
    Actually, she left in the ninth episode of the season, meaning that she was around for 8 episodes (not including her three seconds of screentime in the first episode).
    Last edited by Silktree; 2nd January 2013 at 04:04 AM.

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    Le Noob The One and Only RA's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    It's unfortunate that Dawn didn't catch any Pokemon in Hoenn (if she did, they would have been shown). Her team lacks depth.

    Dawn's Quilava is always present in her team (probably because she doesn't have reserves). It will gain experience. Evolving it wouldn't have been a bad move.

    Although I would definitely like Ash's Quilava to evolve, something tells me that wouldn't be very logical. Ash does neglect his old Pokemon.
    Ash almost never rotates his Oaked Pokemon into his team for a prolonged period (except Phanpy/Donphan). The way his Cyndaquil evolved, in its first appearance in a long time, was somewhat forced. If on the other hand its evolution had been while it was in Ash's team again (like Phanpy), it would be very appropriate. Ash could rotate Quilava into his team in an arc and it might evolve. But I doubt that would happen.

    Is it just me or did Dawn's voice get a little less annoying in BW? Her DP voice was awfully irritating at times.

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    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    Showcased more of her Pokemon instead of just Piplup...

    Had her catch a Unova Pokemon. I mean in DP, May evolved her Eevee into a Sinnoh Pokemon so why not add a Unova one to Dawn's team? No, I guess they plugged in Quilava's evolution as a reason to not to do

    Discuss how that Fashion photo-shoot or whatever it was that kept her from going back to visit Kanto with Ash and Brock at the end of DP

    Not have their match interrupted by Cynthia... "It was a close battle, I can't tell who won it!" Well no surprise there, you ended it before we got to see a winner! Though we did see that Dawn indeed has gotten better in battle and actually that one match was better than any of the Jr. Cup battles in my opinion because we got to see Ash actually battle like he did in DP minus Volt Tackle and Counter Shield strategies...

    The same with her battle with Cilan but it was clear that she was winning. More interaction with him would have been good too.

    Seriously, the list can go on but I think the only reason she came back was the follow the tradition of; big Pokemon tournament/contest brings back old female traveling buddy that gets beaten by the new girl to boost her confidence in one way or another whether its from losing or "problem child" Pokemon...

    When the tournament started it was all about Trip, Iris and Dragonite. Haha, BW has some of the most dull episode titles anyway that should have been the name of this entire tournament-arc!

    Not to jump off topic but to end this, both Dawn and Cynthia were downplayed in their return appearances. BW Season 2 had so much potential but that's what the writers did, just messed it up for nothing.

  6. #6
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    While it would have been nice to hear about Dawn adventures in Hoenn, how she fared and get quick reference to her rivals at the end of the day would it really matter that much?
    We saw May talking about her experiences in Johto and how much ribbons she collected, but what do we have from it when she got abandoned and forgotten anyway like other characters were, being treated as one time thing.

    Now if pokemon was one of those anime which keeps ex main characters relevant bringing them at certain point in future sagas like Inazuma Eleven or Bakugan does than yes lack of update would be much more displeasing to me, but since in this show after obligatory follow up cameo ex main character basically disappears forever can't say this rubbed me that much.

    If you ask me character reappearance doesn't have to always hold some significance behind it, with writers sometimes bringing them back to re energize things in current cast, give opportunity to his/ her fans to see them again in action and enjoy in all their quirks and traits improving dynamic between main characters.

    It also helps imbue pokemon with more continuity connecting anime with past sagas Ash traveled through, shake things up adding more unpredictability and attracts wider group of fans toward show boosting up ratings. And Dawn unexpected return definitely helped already declining ratings.

    After all if pokemon is still show about Ash journey being one big continuity it only makes sense to acknowledge past traveling companions existence and impact they left on main protagonist and anime history building on its popularity.

    Granted i can understand annoyance behind lack of update in Dawn cameo compared to other girl appearances, but to be fair it was known pretty much from start how you can't do a whole lot with coordinator in region which doesn't have contests. There are no competitions through which you can move his story forward, bringing up rivals in here would be completely random and out of place and writers in reality came up with most plausible excuse they could to justify return of coordinator in here.

    Maybe its just me but i actually enjoyed in Dawn return. I felt her presence really helped BW group chemistry having great interactions with Ash, Iris and even Cilan to extent . I enjoyed in fact that she actually battled each member of main cast,. We saw her Piplup holding its ground against Cilan Pansage, Mamoswine going all in against Iris Dragonite and Quiilava showing some pretty cool moves against Ash and Pikachu. Admittedly it was jarring that 2/3 of battles were interrupted in middle but still its interesting to note how she battled all three current main characters.
    Side rivalry between Piplup and Oshawott was pretty amusing to me as well and her participation in Junior Cup hold some significance to it serving as prelude to revelation of real core of problem behind Dragonite disobedience relating to Iris, since she had same issues with Mamoswine.

    When taking in account fact how without contests coordinator was pretty much screwed over, i believe appearance longer than 8 episodes can be viewed as compensation/fair trade for it. Arguably this helped Dawn to some extent in her future career of coordinator too because she did gather new knowledge which could help her in future appeal rounds by taking some of ideas from musicals and observe different battling style trainers in Unova use.

    Now could Dawn cameo in Unova been handled better? Without doubt because at very least writers could make her participation in Junior Cup more relevant by defeating someone more meaningful than filler COTD. Instead of Ash being used as device to reveal true issue behind Dragonite defeating it, Dawn could have been used for that role defeating Dragonite and make Iris realize why its disobedient. It would make more sense too since Mamoswine had statistically higher chance to defeat dragon than dark, ground type.

    So yes im disappointed somewhat with way things played out regarding Dawn return, but i can say i still enjoyed in what she got while she was there.

    Now i can already see this statement raising up many eyebrows and shocked looks, but in all honestly if i would have to choose i would much rather had Dawn return even if that return won't hold some huge, deep meaning behind it than not to see her come back at all being left forgotten and abandoned.

    Considering in what direction writers are taking this anime treating everything and everyone from past with disrespect.

    Many past main characters weren't that lucky disappearing from face of existence( Misty comes to mind).
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 2nd January 2013 at 04:49 AM.
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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    Quote Originally Posted by The One and Only RA View Post
    Although I would definitely like Ash's Quilava to evolve, something tells me that wouldn't be very logical. Ash does neglect his old Pokemon.
    Ash almost never rotates his Oaked Pokemon into his team for a prolonged period (except Phanpy/Donphan). The way his Cyndaquil evolved, in its first appearance in a long time, was somewhat forced. If on the other hand its evolution had been while it was in Ash's team again (like Phanpy), it would be very appropriate. Ash could rotate Quilava into his team in an arc and it might evolve. But I doubt that would happen.
    That's what I take issue with. The only reason that Dawn was given a Cyndaquil to begin with was to promote HGSS without having Ash bring back his Johto starters. Was there a valid reason to do that? Not in my opinion. At the very least the Johto Festival arc should have revolved around Ash's Johto starters, which would have led to Cyndaquil's evolution and perhaps even to Totodile's. I'd also argue that the last year of DP should have had Ash rotate his Pokémon in preparation for the league.

    If the writers are so against Ash bringing back old Pokémon not named Charizard for an arc, they should at least establish that they do train by themselves in Oak's ranch.

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    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    The only thing that didn't bother/disappoint/disgust me about Dawn's extended cameo was the lack of new outfit, since they already expended the obligatory Platinum outfit appearances during DP (which was totally reasonable since she was in the Snowpoint area); that and given the tropical-esque locales that took place during the cameo episodes, the Platinum outfit would hardly be appropriate. And since the staff was too incompetent to even make Dawn's post-DP story even make coherent sense, I wasn't gonna expect them to actually go through the effort of making an entirely original outfit for her like they did with Misty.

    Everything else, though? All of it could have been so much better. Or at the very least, not so shitty. Since I believe Buneary's Japanese VA died by the time these episodes rolled around and they didn't do much with her character besides that, I had a feeling Buneary herself would be shafted and that would've been a good time as any to give Dawn a new Pokemon so at least she would have accomplished SOMETHING in Unova. But nope, all we need to see are Piplup and Mamoswine for the most part, apparently, the latter of which I feel only got to exist in this extended cameo solely to serve Iris' purposes. I did expect Ash would at least ask Dawn how the modeling offer went since that's the last thing he knew she was doing (and the reason why she couldn't go back to Kanto with him and Brock), but hahahaha what the fuck does continuity mean.

    To be fair the Dawn special was a shit episode, but since they did reference Cyndaquil becoming Quilava which DID happen in that episode, it's truly a mess figuring out what the hell Dawn is actually doing. Assuming her going to Hoenn was still canon, I like to think we would have gotten confirmation if she had actually won the GF there or not, but we don't even get to find out if she has any ribbons at all there! We get no passing mention of her rivals, which doesn't bother me AS much as the other shit since most of Dawn's rivals are too boring for me to care to see them in silent cameos, but it still would've been a nice continuity nod. I feel like Dawn's "reason" for coming here (Elesa) was very out of left field, especially since none of that gets referenced again after the first time. And the Junior Cup was also a major waste of time. If the Junior Cup wasn't mostly dedicated to a Trip vanity project, I suspect the finals very well could've been Dawn vs Iris, but Dawn really didn't do much other than offer moral support with Iris' Dragonite crisis; no different from anyone else.

    May, and hell, even Misty had more of a lasting impact in their cameos. May's was obvious; she was there to help Dawn get her groove back. Misty didn't need much exposition on what she was doing since she left the show since we got a lot of Chronicles episodes dedicated to her that aired around the time of the AG series, and her sibling bonding with Max meant a hell of a lot more than Dawn and Iris' "You're a girl and I'm a girl! LET'S BE BEST FRIENDS" crap.

    Now I have to go to work, but basically most people who have spoken out here share the same problems as me, so I'll leave it at that.

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    XXXXXXXXXX Dragon Char's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    I would've taken the opportunity to make Ash more competent by comparison, as what actually happened kinda made him look like a slacker. There should've been a special Contest or something since participating in a regular tournament does nothing for her. Iris should've lost to Dawn so they can bond over similar situations, and Dawn can come full circle. You can keep the Junior tournament and stuff, just Dawn has no business participating.
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    I think the things that she did during her flashback of what she did before meeting Ash again were all good ways to justify her coming to Unova - if those had instead happened on screen then I think she could have gained a lot out of the appearance, to me it doesn't seem to hard to alter the series of events to have most of that occur on screen.

    Pick up at BW082, but instead of Ash running into Luke again, have Dawn come off a different boat as it comes into the harbour from Hoenn (and pointing that fact out) - then I'd have the episode treat the PokeStar Studios more like the games do - and have Dawn using Buneary and Quilava to recreate one of those battle movies, with Ash as the bad guy (Krokorok would do well in that). Using both of their knowledge of combinations, they would then be able to make a movie that seemed like it had far more special effects than the other competitors (perhaps Iris and Cilan could also do one in the same ep), so they'd win, promote a part of the games and show some contest like moves.

    Next episode would then start dealing with the reasons they are there - Ash would mention the Gym battle he has and then Dawn would mention that she was going to visit Nimbasa City to see the Pokemon Musicals where she planned to meet someone about Buneary's modelling.

    I can imagine Dawn and Roxie would result in an interesting episode - they seem to me like total opposites.

    After that, travel by boat almost straight across to Nimbasa, have another episode around Musicals, but this time with more focus on behind the scenes and how they plan out the performances; I'd then put the first meeting with Meloetta in here, because it seems like a more natural place for it than the Pokestar studios - just have Ash do the same sort of thing and go out to the storeroom for a prop that they need. Togekiss would be great in musicals I think.

    Then after having the meeting finish at the top of the next episode, have Dawn decide she wants to go shopping - and then have them go through Join Avenue (so more game promotion than they actually did) - where they can meet up with Cynthia together, find out about the Junior Cup and then pick the story up more or less as is from there. A few minor changes to the setup episodes could have made it worthwhile without adding much to the overall length of the arc, and do a better job of promoting some of the game changes.

    Having Dawn capture another Pokemon is a bit tough, one of the points out of that special she got was wanting to keep working with her current Pokemon and with her having six on hand it would be tough to just replace one, as much as capturing a Pokemon in the region would be a good addition. Having her talk to Cilan about different movesets that could produce new combinations would be a good use of both of their time. I thought Iris would have made a bigger deal of Mamoswine being an Ice type - I'd have thought the concept of it would be totally terrifying for her.
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    What I found really strange is even though Dawn was in 8 episodes, she was only really focused on in 3 of them, (her first ep, the Onix filler, and the Mamo Vs. Dragonite battle)

    This is the first time an old protagonist was ever brought back just to be thrown in the background. The entire Junior Cup tournament focused heavily on Trip and Iris, and to a lesser extent Ash because his Krok evolved. Dawn had no purpose in that tournament at all. Her only win was a 3 second montage with Piplup and she loses as early as the second match.

    What I also find strange is most of her Pokemon did nothing. Piplup was just there to rival with Oshawott, Mamoswine got the big battle, and Quilava was just showcased at the very end. Buneary/Pachi did nothing, and that useless Togekiss proved even more why it was a useless Togekiss. That disgrace of a Togekiss never should have came to Dawn's team in the first place.

    Overall though, it amuses me greatly that after all that constant promotion of Dawn in DP, the way the writers literally shoved her down our throats for 4 years, and after all those ending/opening themes of her song and Piplup promotion....she was just treated like a throwaway character now that DP is over. I guess it proves that the writers only promote the hell out of a character when they're trying to sell a certain game, but once the next gen begins, Dawn was, "pointless" in their eyes and its like they only had her back to sell more Piplup plushes.
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    Registered User Trainer Gabriel's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    I would have given her a better battle with Iris, instead of getting unfairly eliminated by the disobedient Dragonite that served no purpose whatsoever.

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    A giant among men SammyW27's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    I don't think there was much ways it could have meant something...

    Bringing her back, IMO, was just act of desperation on the prodcuers' part...
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    They should've made her help Iris out with Dragonite's disobediance. She gave Iris one advice that barely did anything at all, she should've showed Iris what she did when she was trying to communicate with her Mamoswine (not that her methods worked at all :p). That's the only way I could see her cameo have some meaning into it.

    Dawn was great in the Onix episode though, so even though she was kinda lacklustre in every other episode I still thought her interactions with Iris made her memorable. And I also liked her in the episode with the disappearing Cubchoo.

    What I didn't get about her cameo is how Ash and Dawn, from being great friends back in DP, suddenly didn't seem to be any better friends than Cilan and Dawn. And the same applies for Piplup and Pikachu. I lost all my respect for the last episode of DP due to that. Piplup cries and cries for not getting to travel with Ash, Brock and Pikachu any longer, creating a huge scene that stands for episode's whole plot, and then barely interacts with Pikachu as they finally get to meet each other again. Really?

    Maybe they should've done something about the friendship between the Ash and Dawn. Maybe Dawn could've helped Ash out with some training? If she couldn't help Iris then maybe she could've taught Ash a new battle tactic that would help him in the Sinnoh League. It wouldn't maybe mean much, but at least she would have helped out on character with something of significant importance.
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    Registered User Nymphia's Avatar
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    Default Re: What could have been done to make Hikari's BW appearance actually *mean* somethin

    Getting a new outfit? Yes, and to be more precise, I think that she don't need a standard outfit as a "special" case.

    Also, I explain why this cameo was promoted the way that you think that she is really returning to the main cast "the theoretic BW Quartet" (that you apparently forget).

    We know that older main characters aren't going to return to being main characters except in special circunstances. That means that this shouldn't happen in the show, but this is one of the most powerful tools of the anime to attract viewers. I found that Dawn ha some the characteristic to have "special circunstances" along (It's more marketable than Iris (specially in BW1 and now wshe was way more popular than Cilan, her mascot is selling a lot of merch unlike Iris' Axew, she could have a team of marketing plushies, she has more impact to Ash than Iris could ever had, Dawn is way more marketable than Iris)

    Why Dawn was brought back to Sinnoh? To show that the writers can trade back characters to the show permanently. And because Piplup is hyper-popular in Japan they want to bring back Piplup in the show in a moment where Piplup will appear as a older pokemon (the Meloetta short). (And to remmber anyone, Axew is NOT popular. Can you say popular a mascot that takes around the 25th post in merch and to be a mascot doesn't appear in like 90% of merch where Pikachu is everywhere. That doesn't happen with Piplup (the contrary, was promoted to mascot status during DP) and Togepi.

    What's the consequence of Dawn's cameo? That since then, Piplup is appearing in way more merchandise than Axew hopes to have. Piplup has appeared like 20 times with Eevee, 15 times with Lucario, 10 times with Charizard and 2-3 times with GENESECT!!!!! And in many of those... Axew doesn't appear in them.

    With this you possibly found why Dawn was way popular.
    Last edited by Nymphia; 2nd January 2013 at 03:03 PM.

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