Thread: Unova league in 3 months (in anime time)

Originally Posted by Hellion

(unless you're battling Iris, cause as shown with Cabernet, even you're outstratagizing her and just being a much better better battler, Iris cannot lose except to Drayden or former tournament winners).

...Just stop, I get it you don't like Iris but, Iris deserved to beat Cabernet, Cabernet gave a shitty diagnosis, Iris is more experienced in battling, Iris used strategy, and Doryuuzu is a better trained Pokemon then Futachimaru. That's that.

Langley and Kenyan, we've seen them win, but neither really has shown anything that indicates them making a deep run in a League tournament, especially because we've seen them win.

This show is unpredictable.

We don't need to see Kenyan or Langley really getting wins and they both would make good first round opponents for Satoshi, Shooti or Bel.

You mean "want"? Yeah, I wouldn't mind Langley or Kenyan advancing over Cabernet.

Also, I don't think that past results should determine the results of any match. It just negates the purpose of having the match in the first place, and makes improvement impossible for characters. If anything, that means that Satoshi beating Shinji isn't believable.

Satoshi and Shinji's rivalry was one of the main points of DP, something Ash truly was working toward that wasn't played for laughs. Cabernet usually in played for jokes in every episode she appears in, showing no development in character or change thus far.

The way the battle itself is written is what's important in terms of making the battle believable. For example, the aforementioned battle between Iris and Cabernet, it respected the pre-battle logic, but was shit writing because of Iris winning the match after she'd been dominated and outsmarted by Cabernet was very unbelievable.

Cabernet was not some unstoppable force, and I could not disagree more with those sentiments.

Bel because it would just highlight the personal journey she's taken, the progress she made and everything she learned throughout her journey,best developed character in BW. I would actually want Bel to win the League. :D

I personally think Iris has had the best and most character development in BW thus far, I still see Bel's win over Shooti as being pretty forced and cheap. I really don't see how that ol' Bulk Up'd Fighting behemoth lost to Bel's Emboar, who only won by Flinging Stone Edge stones and throwing those rock concrete at it. Otherwise Rouboushin & Shooti had Bel and Emboar in the palm of their hands the whole match, couldn't touch Roubushin with a Flamethrower, Hammer Arm/Focus Punch, or Arm Thrust. But, some how managed to beat it by Flinging Rock moves of all things.

We know that Cabernet traveled to earn badges before losing to Dent, that it was her dream, that she won a badge from Pod and that she was training in battles rather than study to become a better sommelière. It would make sense to see her there, more so than Kenyan or Langley.

It still would come off as forced to me, unless most of them are fake badges. I really don't think Cabernet could beat Shaga, Yakon, or Hachiku. Showing up at the league and whipping out eight badges and being "SURPRISE BITCH!!" would just be sudden, very sudden and out of the left wing of the park. Even when Satoshi talked to her being all "Listen, all I wanna do here is win and then go on to win at the Raimon Gym as well" she showed no reaction to the idea, even referring to his dreams as silly. She wasn't in the slightest interested in the Raimon Gym, she most likely earned the Tri Badge in an attempt to showoff to Dento and most likely only wanted to earn it in her efforts to beat Dento.

Originally Posted by Gotpika

Iris used strategy

I wouldn't really call spouting attacks after attacks til something works is a strategy, but again, you're referring to Iris and Doryuuzu being more experienced as the sole reason they should have won. Then what's the point of even having battles if the results are solely determined by the past? It's just everything repeating itself without any possibility of change. Look at any sport, the reasons why the people at the top of the sport will face against others is because the match can go either way, that the possibility of losing exist. That's why even if the odds are incredibly against someone, if they manage to write the battle in a believable way, the battle will be believable. An unbelievably written battle that reflects past event is still unbelievable, as was shown by Iris beating Cabernet.

You mean "want"?

No, I meant need. Kenyan already had his day in the limelight, he hasn't really done anything to warrant making it far in the tournament. He hasn't grown, he hasn't developped, he doesn't have an intense rivalry with Satoshi or anyone, he has no struggle, etc. In other words, there's nothing to resolve with his character, there's nothing that really needs to be addressed. If he's there, he'll be there to be there and get beaten. The same goes for Langley. We know she can win, there's nothing really that needs to be addressed, nothing there that really warrants a deep run in the tournament.

Cabernet's lack of wins thus far, her backstory and the changes she has gone through during the course of the series are something that needs to be addressed. The desire to battle has been the one constant in her character with her drive as a sommelière and her relationship with Dent evolved and changed. There's a story there, there's something that needs to be explored and expanded on, and the League seems a good stage to do so. While I would like her to win one battle, I could see her losing in the first round too and getting the same result, à la Urara in the GF.

I still see Bel's win over Shooti as being pretty forced and cheap.

And that's so besides the point I was making. The point is, Bel is the character in Best Wishes so far who had the biggest change, because she was actually allowed to fail, learn from it and actually progress as a trainer. She confronted her father, learned how to earn Pokémon's trust and work better with them, she focused more on training, teaching Chillarmy a new move and evolving Chaobu in the process. The battle against Shooti, because she didn't give up, because she pulled through, coming up with a strategy to get out of a bind. She showed improvement. She's so far the only character in BW that really did, hence why I think she should be the one to win the League, because it would actually be meaningful.

Showing up at the league and whipping out eight badges and being "SURPRISE BITCH!!" would just be sudden, very sudden and out of the left wing of the park.

It would be just like when Conway did it the Sinnoh League... I don't think it would be unbelievable for Cabernet to win Gym matches. Satoshi got his without using strategy with a bunch of underevolved Pokémon. Cabernet got a team of evolved Pokes, and showed she was a smart and strong battler in the Donamite. Plus, since she's not a main character, we can't expect her to actually change on screen. Most we'll see out of recurring characters is often the results of progression rather than progression itself. Characters like Shinji or Bel that show progress and change on screen are rare.

I would love if before the League, we saw Cabernet or Bel earning their eighth badge against Shizui.

Originally Posted by Hellion

I wouldn't really call spouting attacks after attacks til something works is a strategy, but again, you're referring to Iris and Doryuuzu being more experienced as the sole reason they should have won. Then what's the point of even having battles if the results are solely determined by the past? It's just everything repeating itself without any possibility of change. Look at any sport, the reasons why the people at the top of the sport will face against others is because the match can go either way, that the possibility of losing exist. That's why even if the odds are incredibly against someone, if they manage to write the battle in a believable way, the battle will be believable. An unbelievably written battle that reflects past event is still unbelievable, as was shown by Iris beating Cabernet.

I love how you're completely ignoring the fact Iris did use strategy at times in that battle and looking at everything she does through dirt-tinted lenses.

Cabernet's lack of wins thus far, her backstory and the changes she has gone through during the course of the series are something that needs to be addressed. The desire to battle has been the one constant in her character with her drive as a sommelière and her relationship with Dent evolved and changed. There's a story there, there's something that needs to be explored and expanded on, and the League seems a good stage to do so. While I would like her to win one battle, I could see her losing in the first round too and getting the same result, à la Urara in the GF.

Her "desire" to battle isn't something that's even been established in the show. All instances of it so far have been headcanon. There's nothing showing Cabernet prefers battling over being a Sommelier.

And that's so besides the point I was making. The point is, Bel is the character in Best Wishes so far who had the biggest change, because she was actually allowed to fail, learn from it and actually progress as a trainer. She confronted her father, learned how to earn Pokémon's trust and work better with them, she focused more on training, teaching Chillarmy a new move and evolving Chaobu in the process. The battle against Shooti, because she didn't give up, because she pulled through, coming up with a strategy to get out of a bind. She showed improvement. She's so far the only character in BW that really did, hence why I think she should be the one to win the League, because it would actually be meaningful.

Uh-huh. I counter that argument by saying Iris has had development in BW thus far. Learning to understand Dragon's hearts further, making a turn around with her insubordinate Excadrill, pulling a strategy out of her butt against Futachimaru and Dageki, and being forced to get over her Ice-type fear. I haven't seen the Chevargo episode so I can't give a disagnosis on that. But "teaching a new move, evolving" these are things that happened off screen. We don't know if they were done realistically or not, if I believed everything this show told me just like *that* I wouldn't have a hard time accepting the fact that Bel supposedly beat two gym leaders with just her Charbu, which is impossible unless said leaders were battling while half asleep. Just like how her Emboar's win at the Donamite over Shooti was a complete load.
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It would be just like when Conway did it the Sinnoh League... I don't think it would be unbelievable for Cabernet to win Gym matches. Satoshi got his without using strategy with a bunch of underevolved Pokémon. Cabernet got a team of evolved Pokes, and showed she was a smart and strong battler in the Donamite. Plus, since she's not a main character, we can't expect her to actually change on screen. Most we'll see out of recurring characters is often the results of progression rather than progression itself. Characters like Shinji or Bel that show progress and change on screen are rare.

I would love if before the League, we saw Cabernet or Bel earning their eighth badge against Shizui.

You're comparing Cabernet to Shinji, I draw the line there. Shinji is a character who wasn't made out to be a comedic Team Rocket level replacement. Nothing about Cabernet makes me think she can beat quite a few of the gym leaders we've seen so far unless they're fake badges, I really don't see how she could beat Shaga, Hachiku, or Yakon for example hell even Kamitsure from what we saw of her and her Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Musashi

Satoshi didn't train them evenly when he had just 6 Pokemon either.

But there wasn't the degree of disconnect between training and battle strength. The issue is the same as in the Indigo league where Krabby came on with no training and had very high strength and evolved first battle - it isn't a natural and believable progression in strength.

And like Glisor'd said, it doesn't really matter anyway since no one (except Pikachu) is guaranteed a win in the league anyway. I prefer the variety.

But when you consider the likelihood of league battle wins, and the likelihood of a strong result in the league you need to consider the training shown and the battles won and lost. Of course beyond that there's the issue of badly written battles that are counter to the likelihood of something, but a cheap win is as bad as no win.

Originally Posted by Kishore

@Moe, Its not necessary to show EVERY SINGLE detail of Ash life in on screen !
Like how in Manga, The Protagonist caught new pokemon off screen & their pokemon learn new move & evolves off screen !
But Mange are much more cooler then Anime & the Manga Protagonist are 100 time stronger then Ash !
I would love if Ash reveal to teach his pokemon some new move or tactic off screen !
Their no need to create episode about every single move Ash's pokemon learn !

I don't read the manga so can't make an informed comparison. But again there's a difference between the potential for off screen training, which is fine, and a lack of balance. Ash goes around Unova with the same team for the majority of the time, only swapping out the 6th Pokemon (after Pikachu, the starters and Scraggy) for plot convenience. That alone means that Ash simply is not spending time with his non-main Pokemon for implied off screen training.

But more fundamentally, if Ash is training off screen and getting the degree of success he is with very little time, why isn't he doing the same thing with his other Pokemon? If Scraggy advanced at the same rate we are expected to believe Leavanny did, not only would it have perfected Focus Blast in one episode, it'd be a near unbeatable Scrafty.

They don't need to show everything, they do need to show enough to make wins believable, and to justify the ability for his Pokemon to respond well enough in major battles to win league matches. If handled correctly, there's time between now and the league to show Ash training with all his Pokemon, working on different line ups and battle strategy. That can't undo the stupidity of some of the Gym battle portrayals of his non-main Pokemon, but it can go some way to making future battles more believable.

Originally Posted by Gotpika

You're comparing Cabernet to Shinji, I draw the line there. Shinji is a character who wasn't made out to be a comedic Team Rocket level replacement. Nothing about Cabernet makes me think she can beat quite a few of the gym leaders we've seen so far unless they're fake badges, I really don't see how she could beat Shaga, Hachiku, or Yakon for example hell even Kamitsure from what we saw of her and her Pokemon.

No, I'm comparing her to Conway, because we had no indication that he would be in the League, and yet he showed up for it. As for comedic characters, Musashi and Jun both made it to their respective tournament despite being comedic characters and not having stellar battling records. Again, I could see Cabernet beating Gym Leaders like Hachiku or Yakon, since she's got the team to beat them and has shown to be a good battler. Her presence in the League would make sense.

Remember guys we're here to debate the show and not target users. Comments like "and looking at everything she does through dirt-tinted lenses." is getting personal and subject to Flaming and Baiting warning/infractions.

Hey since Unova is pretty far away from Kanto maybe just maybe they will have a different set of special fields so instead of you know ice rock grass and water fields they can have desert piller swamp and forest. A slim possibility but it is still possible.

How exactly would the spectators see the action within a forest setting where there are bound to be trees blocking their view?

Personally I hope there aren't any fields. I think tactics based on the fields can be fairly boring compared to actual strategies with moves.

Originally Posted by Iteru

How exactly would the spectators see the action within a forest setting where there are bound to be trees blocking their view?

Personally I hope there aren't any fields. I think tactics based on the fields can be fairly boring compared to actual strategies with moves.

Yeah but it is more colorful and nicer to look at the fucking dirt. I love fields, even if Ash does not use a strategy to use them the fact that they are there makes the place look more diverse.

Originally Posted by Iteru

How exactly would the spectators see the action within a forest setting where there are bound to be trees blocking their view?

Hunger Games

Originally Posted by GreatLiver

Originally Posted by Iteru

How exactly would the spectators see the action within a forest setting where there are bound to be trees blocking their view?

Hunger Games

This is Pokemon, m8. Not ancient Greece...

So my guess for the League:
1st Round 3on3
Ash vs Langley or Luke(just to have someone known to fight and is known to us)

2nd Round 3on3
Ash vs someone UnImportant

3rd Round 3on3
Ash vs Stephan or someone else

4th round 3on3 or 6on6 probably 3on3 cause they didn't introduce a new Poke for Bianca for almost 40 eps.
Ash vs Bianca

Semis
Ash vs Trip

Final
Ash vs New Rival (N)

Yeah I really get the feeling Trip will be in the semi-finals. I can't wait to see everyone complain that Trip will get further in the league than Paul did.

For me, I'll make unimportant character as A,B,C and so on... and this is the line-up i want
League Line-up:

Top 64
Ash vs A (Ash wins), Trip vs Kenyan (Kenyan wins), Bel vs B (Bel wins), Cabernet vs C (Cabernet wins) and Langley vs D (Langley wins), Luke vs E (Luke wins), New Rival vs F (New Rival wins)

Top 32
Ash vs Cabernet (Ash wins), Langley vs G (Langley wins), Kenyan vs H (Kenyan wins), Luke vs New Rival (New Rival wins), Bel vs I (Bel wins)

Top 16
Ash vs J (Ash wins), Langley vs Bel (Bel wins), Kenyan vs K (Kenyan wins), New Rival vs L (New Rival wins)

Top 8
Ash vs Kenyan (Ash wins), Bel vs M (Bel wins), New Rival vs N (this N refers to unimportant character, New Rival wins)

Top 4
Ash vs New Rival (New Rival/Ash wins, I don't care), Bel vs O (Bel wins)

Finals
Ash/New Rival vs Bel (Bel wins)

The reason I wanted Bel to win is that she kept losing BUT she DID manage to evolve her Chaoboo to Embuoh (Look, if she is not trying to improve herself, will she even bother to evolve her Pokemon?)... but Ash in Unova make me feel like he has the luck but not the skill (Look, the point everyone feeling Ash is weaker this Gen is because he hasn't used any advanced strategy or improvised move this season, he learned a lot of those in Sinnoh). And I am trying to predict the unpredictable :P (as Trollbias can appear all of a sudden in the Sinnoh league, Bel can win the league)

Ash not facing Trip is very doubt full. But to pump up Trip's status he could defeat Kenyan!
And Bel wining this considering how they portrayed her even more doubtful.