TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

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    Default TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    NOTE! This is just a opinion list on who I think is better at dubbing the English version of the Pokémon television show. if you think something differently than what I think that perfectly fine. This won't be judged by nostalgia mainly because I started watching the anime at season 11 (Battle Dimension) so I didn't grow up with the ORIGINAL voice actors also because back in September 2012 to August 2013 I started watching all the anime episodes (Season 1 to 16) so I've really been able to calculate & see who's better (in my opinion)

    BTW this will be a VERY long list so sorry if you can't or don't want to read it all.

    But anyways time to start! =)

    4Kids Entertainment Pros! =)
    ---------------------------------
    1. Voice Acting
    |
    Now I know that many people were pretty upset when TPCI (formerly known as Pokémon USA) replaced the dubbing production 4Kids in 2006 because they wanted a cheaper rate dubbing the anime which IMO was pretty low of them. Going back & looking at the older episodes made me realize that 4kids was superior in terms voice actors. People like Veronica Taylor (Former voice actor for Ash Ketchum) & Eric Stuart (Former voice actor for Brock Harrison) seem to put more effort into their performances than Bill Roger or Sarah Natochenny. (Current Voice Actors for Ash Ketchum & Brock Harrison) despite me actually liking them better =]

    2. Openings/Intros
    |
    4Kids definitely nailed down making intros for the anime my favorite being "This Dream" used in 7th season of the anime Advanced Challenge.

    The Lyrics & beats more memorable & just the length of the intros were longer than what TPCI did NOT NO DAMN 30 SECONDS!!!...sorry.

    3. Love
    |
    4Kids just cared about the show more than TPCi did. Now I'm not trying to make TPCI seem like they're just money whores only dubbing the show for a profit but its obvious (to me at least ) that 4kids wanted to continue dubbing the anime the voice actors loved playing the characters assigned to them whereas TPCI only replaced 4Kids in the first place because of money after 4kids contract expired if I'm fully correct.

    4Kids Entertainment Cons! =(
    ----------------------------------
    1. Edits/Localization
    |
    Something 4Kids is notorious for in Pokémon (Other than One Piece) is editing & changing food like rice balls into crackers or submarine sandwiches to "Americanize" it since young children in 4Kids's eyes probably wouldn't recognize what rice balls or ramen noodles would be. -_-

    Also pointless paint edits over words & signs which were just.....blah! irritating! :(

    2. Background Music
    |
    The BGM that 4Kids uses never irritated me in the slightest but was too generic IMO whereas the music in the RAW version was more diverse & better But I may remind you that 4Kids would have to pay for that music that the RAW version uses (IF IM CORRECT!)

    3. Script Changes/Dialogue
    |
    I'm not sure but I think 4Kids makes slight changes the dialogue or is poorly translated. anyways sometimes 4Kids can make the dialogue within the anime seem a bit wacky, with too many puns, or just change it altogether.

    The Pokémon Company International Pros! =)
    ----------------------------------------------------
    1. Voice Acting
    |
    Yes! I do like the TPCi dub I assume many old school Pokémon fans loathe the TPCI dub because of the voice actors especially liking Veronica Taylor over Sarah Natochenny but I enjoy both in fact I like Sarah Natochenny's performance more because she makes Ash sound older despite her laugh sounding weird for Ash & her performance being terrible in season 9 but started getting good in season 11 IMO. I also like Bill Rogers as Brock more too for making him sound older as well. :)

    2. Sticking to the original Dialogue/Script
    |
    I would assume that TPCI sticks to the original script more not putting as many rhymes, puns or changes in it despite Team Rocket's constant rhyming.

    3. No Edits =D
    |
    Despite TPCI editing parts out of a Black & White Series episode that leads into the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket two parter that never aired in Japan or USA to keep the season consistent & changing the BGM TPCI never really edits any scenes out or remove letters like 4Kids so that cool! :)

    The Pokèmon Company International Cons! =(
    -----------------------------------------------------
    1. Openings/Intros
    |
    As I said before 4Kids in my opinion was superior in terms of making openings But I wonder why TPCI's intros irk me? I think because they're too F***ING short! Only 30 seconds really? The lyrics & beats are bland & tasteless but I bet CN (CartoonNetwork) limits how long they can be :(

    2. BGM is lower?
    |
    I think DuArt has something to do with it but ever since the BW series started the background music seems lower than how it seems in the original Japanese version which irritates me. :(

    3. Less Love for the show?
    |
    I do think that TPCI doesn't care about the show as much as 4kids did also they probably care about money more too. I'm not trying to make them seem like money whores but I think they dub the anime mostly for a profit sadly. :(


    That's it. that's all I can think of in terms of who's better

    And my answer IS.........( drum roll).........TPCI!

    Reason? it's because despite TPCI's VA's not being as great as 4Kids's VA's I still like Sarah as Ash & Bill as Brock more I'm also just more used to the current voice actors. ALSO! despite in openings being shorter & less awesome they're decent enough for me to not hate on them a lot.

    Also at least TPCI sticks to the original JAPANESE script more & doesn't do any pointless paint edits. =D

    if you're opinion is different than mine that's perfectly ok.

    Have a nice day! Hooray! =)

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Here's my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for sharing yours! Liked your reasoning a lot myself, and respect your opinion. I'm using the same format as you, if that's okay, to explain my thoughts. Hope you don't mind!

    4Kids Entertainment Pros!
    ---------------------------------
    1. Voices and Voice Acting

    4Kids' actors were very well chosen for the main characters, were age appropriate-- sounded like kids and teens, knew how to act believably without coming across as artificial at times, and really managed to get the audience to relate to them. I hold a great deal of respect and admiration for Veronica Taylor, Eric Stuart, Rachael Lillis, Maddie Blaustein, and Amy Birnbaum in particular. I also liked Ted Lewis and Nathan Price, too. In my eyes, I don't think we'll ever be able to get a cast that can practically put everything they have into what they were doing like the 4Kids actors did. Maybe one day it will happen, but until then, they'll always be the voices I hear for the characters in English, no matter how many seasons TPCi dubs. It's just automatic. I hear James: I think Eric Stuart. I hear Jessie: I think Rachael Lillis. So on, and so forth.

    Also, I myself quite like how much higher-pitched Ash and Brock are myself in the 4Kids dub. Ash is still 10, after all, while Brock is 15. I think that most kids their age tend to have lighter voices than the ones given to them in the TPCi dub. I'm 19, but my voice is much less rough and...well, deep...than Ash and Brock's TPCi voices. No offense intended, though, that's just my logic for why from a more objective standpoint I prefer the 4Kids cast. They sounded a lot more age appropriate in my eyes.

    2. Openings/Intros

    "4Kids definitely nailed down making intros for the anime my favorite being "This Dream" used in 7th season of the anime Advanced Challenge.

    The Lyrics & beats more memorable & just the length of the intros were longer than what TPCI did NOT NO DAMN 30 SECONDS!!!...sorry."

    I couldn't agree more. I'd like to add 4Kids wrote better scripts for the intros, and didn't relate everything to friendship or belonging together or how "it's a brand new game" etc. in their intros. They focused more on Ash's dream and the characters, and that's what really leads me to prefer the way they handled the openings/intros.

    3. Script Writing/Dialogue

    I'm sure you're all wondering WTF I'm talking about on this one, but I have to say that 4Kids' did a much better job overall than TPCi has in this department. This is actually what has shocked me the most since the dub switch, not even the voices, and Carter Cathcart and Z Pang America's script writing is just...well, pretty bad, really. I recommend watching Ash and Team Rocket in both dubs again and comparing their speech patterns. There are a few similarities, to be sure, but more than a few differences.

    Team Rocket had their problems in the 4Kids dub, to be sure, but I didn't want to practically shut them up with a muzzle to keep them from uttering such crap lines as "Dig it, jack," "lugs," "grabbing ho," "pilfering us up a bunch of primo Pokemon," etc. It seems like they're trying so hard to get down with the youth of today, and in doing so, miss the point entirely and do a terrible job of matching the characters' personalities in that regard. Since TPCi has taken over, we also have more outdated 90's slang like "full power" and CONSTANT alliterations and rhyming from Team Rocket.

    Ash also had notably better lines back when 4Kids wrote the dialogue. "I guess so, but Pikachu likes it better outside with me: right, buddy?" is SO much cuter, fits Ash's character, and is just better than "When climbing on my shoulder's much more fun" for one thing, or "I don't care what it takes to save Pikachu: even if it means I have to battle Groudon and Kyogre myself," as opposed to "And o'course we also wanna do that, kay?" every other few lines. Ash's dialogue makes him sound more stupid than he actually is in the TPCi dub in my opinion. "Nathaniel reminds me of me!" or "Whoa, she's holding a Pokeball!" alone show how TPCi blew it with Ash's lines and how much better 4Kids was with their script writing with him.

    The other characters are more or less the same in both dubs, writing wise.

    4. Dub Background Music

    "The BGM that 4Kids uses never irritated me in the slightest but was too generic IMO whereas the music in the RAW version was more diverse & better But I may remind you that 4Kids would have to pay for that music that the RAW version uses (IF IM CORRECT!)"

    Exactly, but what you fail to factor in is that, like 4Kids before them, TPCi also replaces the Original JPN BGM too. While not to the same extent as 4Kids' Seasons 4-8, they replace it almost as much for the most part. Holistically, 4Kids' Seasons 1-3 have kept the most of the Original JPN Score in the English Dub, to be honest. Also, you fail to account for how TPCi's dub BGM is...TAJ Productions' was good and I liked how they also used 4Kids' old BGM in conjuction with their own. However, things started going REALLY bad with the dub BGM since DuArt Film and Video took over the TPCi dub in Season 11. The dub's scores now are dull, lazy, uninspired, and sound like someone just got a cat to walk across a Casio Synthesizer and recorded it, sending it to the dubbers for placement with the scenes. Feel free to disagree on this, though, but I prefer 4Kids' dub BGM myself (even if it was generic, it was at least tolerable, unlike TPCi's scores from Seasons 11+).

    5. Love

    "4Kids just cared about the show more than TPCi did. Now I'm not trying to make TPCI seem like they're just money whores only dubbing the show for a profit but its obvious (to me at least ) that 4kids wanted to continue dubbing the anime the voice actors loved playing the characters assigned to them whereas TPCI only replaced 4Kids in the first place because of money after 4kids contract expired if I'm fully correct."

    Again, I couldn't agree more. If those advertisements/commercials crossovers with Batman Beyond, MIB, and many others weren't enough proof of that, they even made some segments where Ash would get trapped in a Pokeball trying to catch Treecko, and there was even a "Battle for the Badge" Segment where there was a crossover between so many characters on Kids WB.

    4Kids Entertainment Cons!
    ----------------------------------
    1. Edits/Localization

    "Something 4Kids is notorious for in Pokémon (Other than One Piece) is editing & changing food like rice balls into crackers or submarine sandwiches to "Americanize" it since young children in 4Kids's eyes probably wouldn't recognize what rice balls or ramen noodles would be. -_-

    Also pointless paint edits over words & signs which were just.....blah! irritating! :("

    I think you said it best and for me, so I'm just quoting you here. It never bothered me, considering Pokemon is about the characters, adventures, and the creatures more than riceballs or Japanese culture EVER were, but I can understand why people were upset with that. It did annoy me a bit, definitely...but what's more important: kanji, or the characters' voices? Riceballs, or the intros/openings? I think that's really my point on this one.

    I was peeved by the sandwiches, crackers, donuts, but not much. I mean, it's just food. If anything, the removal of kanji bothered me more than any of the other edits.

    2. Script Changes/Dialogue

    "I'm not sure but I think 4Kids makes slight changes the dialogue or is poorly translated. anyways sometimes 4Kids can make the dialogue within the anime seem a bit wacky, with too many puns, or just change it altogether."

    Agreed. While I still prefer their script writing/dialogue to TPCi's style, it was still flawed as well. I did cringe at times, to be sure.

    3. Errors

    Arbok doesn't evolved into Seviper, guys. It doesn't. Sealeo is not Nuzleaf. XD.

    The Pokémon Company International Pros!
    ----------------------------------------------------
    1. No Edits

    "Despite TPCI editing parts out of a Black & White Series episode that leads into the Team Plasma vs Team Rocket two parter that never aired in Japan or USA to keep the season consistent & changing the BGM TPCI never really edits any scenes out or remove letters like 4Kids so that cool!"

    Agreed. No more "jelly-filled donuts" or sandwiches and crackers, too. XD. Not that those edits bothered me, but they were silly and pointless. Kids WB is to blame for the badge case edits: 4Kids didn't do those, and that's reflected in the UK airings of the 4Kids dub.

    2. Less Errors

    We also don't have as many errors, like Arbok evolving into Seviper as well, even if we've had Minccino spelled "Mincinno" before, and so on.

    3. Keeping More of the Original JPN Background Music Than 4Kids' Seasons 4-8

    While 4Kids' Seasons 1-3 kept the most Original JPN BGM, TPCi's Seasons 9-16 keep more than 4Kids' Seasons 4-8 did. That is a pro to the TPCi dub in my eyes. I love the Original JPN BGM!

    The Pokèmon Company International Cons!
    -----------------------------------------------------
    1. Openings/Intros

    "As I said before 4Kids in my opinion was superior in terms of making openings But I wonder why TPCI's intros irk me? I think because they're too F***ING short! Only 30 seconds really? The lyrics & beats are bland & tasteless but I bet CN (CartoonNetwork) limits how long they can be"

    Agreed. Big problem with their dub are the intros/openings. They don't work that well. They have more of an ensemble cast vibe, but the effort and enthusiasm, along with the lyrics, just seem dull, lazy, and uninspired in my eyes.

    2. BGM is Lower, and Dub BGM's Quality is Bad (Seasons 11+)

    "I think DuArt has something to do with it but ever since the BW series started the background music seems lower than how it seems in the original Japanese version which irritates me."

    Agreed. I explain why I feel TPCi's Dub BGM is weaker than 4Kids Dub BGM as well, in the 4Kids Pros.

    3. Less Love for the Show?

    "I do think that TPCI doesn't care about the show as much as 4kids did also they probably care about money more too. I'm not trying to make them seem like money whores but I think they dub the anime mostly for a profit sadly."

    Claps out of sheer agreement. It's true, IMHO.

    4. Script Writing/Dialogue

    4Kids (Kathy Borland + James Carter Cathcart) > TPCi (James Carter Cathcart + Z Pang America)

    Again, I'm repeating what I said before. See 4Kids Pros.

    5. Voices and Voice Acting

    Some are okay, but others are pretty bad when you consider how old the characters actually are and their mannerisms. 4Kids' didn't have the best actors the characters could've had, but their voices actually fit the characters' ages and personalities to tell you the truth. Additionally, the acting from most of the TPCi actors tends to be very deadpan, flat, and extremely artificial. There's not a lot of effort or passion going into the roles in my eyes. Sure, the actors are trying their best, their efforts are respectable and admirable, but they just don't seem to have the ability to really invest themselves fully in the characters and make them as relatable as the 4Kids' actors could.

    This is only on the cons list because IMO, Ash and TRio are just average/decent replacements now. That's just not good enough for me after the length of time they've had to make the characters their own for me to prefer them myself. No offense, though, to those of you who prefer the current voice cast.

    And my answer is...4Kids! Yup, this is one of the few times 4Kids actually shined with something. This wasn't their best dub, however. I would say that was the Uncut DVD release of Shaman King they did with FUNimation myself. Their worst dub? I think One Piece was terribad from them. XD.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 7th September 2013 at 09:46 PM.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    I'll cut to the chase.

    4Kids had better VAs.
    TPCi had a better localization team. Aka less censorship.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    4Kids improved on the things that are important, TPCi didn't.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    4Kids improved on the things that are important, TPCi didn't.
    To put my huge analysis in short:

    4Kids = Voices; Voice Acting; Script Writing/Dialogue; Better Intros; Better Dub Background Music.
    TPCi = Less Censorship; Less Errors; Little to No Edits; More of the Original JPN Music.

    I agree. That's why I prefer their dub to TPCi's.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 7th September 2013 at 11:46 PM.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    I agree, but season one still has more JP music.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    I agree, but season one still has more JP music.
    Correct. Seasons 1-3 have more of the Original JPN music than Seasons 4-16.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Those first three seasons had more, but not by a whole lot.

    The very first episode only kept like two pieces of Japanese music, IIRC.
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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    You wanna know what I liked best about 4Kids? Their efforts beyond the anime. I don't know about you guys, but I love the original music albums they released (2.B.A. Master, Totally Pokémon, Pokémon Christmas Bash, etc.). And of course we'll never see anything like Pokémon Live! from TPCi (I think it was very well-written and staged, all things considered).

    I also think the 4Kids voice cast cared about the fandom more than the current cast does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    I prefer TPCI over 4kids. why? because of Bill motherf*cking Rogers he was a better Brock and a better Juptile/Jukain than Eric Stuart and Darren Dunstan.
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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    You wanna know what I liked best about 4Kids? Their efforts beyond the anime. I don't know about you guys, but I love the original music albums they released (2.B.A. Master, Totally Pokémon, Pokémon Christmas Bash, etc.). And of course we'll never see anything like Pokémon Live! from TPCi (I think it was very well-written and staged, all things considered).

    I also think the 4Kids voice cast cared about the fandom more than the current cast does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Agreed. I definitely prefer the 4Kids' voice cast: they just sound more age-appropriate and emotionally invested in their roles in my eyes, but that isn't what I miss the most. As much as I don't like most of the current voice cast, Ash, Jessie, and James' voices are mostly good in BW and I feel they're pretty decent (Meowth and Professor Oak are IMO, just bad, though).

    I really prefer 4Kids' script writing more than anything else about their dub over TPCi's. TPCi's script writing has made me cringe more times than I can count since the minute they took over the dub. "I got me the x symbol!" was a HUGE shock to the system when I saw "Wheel...of Frontier" for the first time. I don't know why, but I just can't stand the way they write Team Rocket and Ash these days in the dub. I hate Ash's "o'course," "kay," "x reminds me of me," and such, while I hate nearly everything Team Rocket says like "Dig it, jack," "lugs," "Primo Pokemon," among a whole host of jarring catchphrases, alliterations, and rhymes.

    4Kids' script writing definitely made me cringe sometimes with the puns and stuff like "that was quite a...tale," but it didn't make me O_O at what the characters were being said. Don't get me wrong, I did facepalm when they said Brock's mom "passed away," sure, but it didn't actually make Flint sound stupid: that was just an error itself the dubbers made.

    I mean, I never thought in a million years Ash would say "I swear, I could even beat a Ho-Oh," "we're gonna raise the roof," "Pikachu's just about to hit the wall," "Whoa, she's holding a...Pokeball," and "I'm NOT a noob." That just sounds plain wrong coming out of the character to me. That's just the problems I have with Ash's dialogue now. I have a whole list of things about Team Rocket I'm disgusted with in the TPCi dub regarding their script writing/dialogue. That's what has really deproved the most to me, and what I liked the most about 4Kids myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogasu View Post
    Those first three seasons had more, but not by a whole lot.

    The very first episode only kept like two pieces of Japanese music, IIRC.
    Also correct. They started off pretty bad, got a lot better from mid Kanto to the beginning of Johto, then pretty much got worse and worse in that department starting from Season 4 onwards.

    TPCi is better than 4Kids Seasons 4-8 in terms of retaining the Original JPN BGM. They started off poor in Season 9 in retaining the Original JPN BGM (still better than 4Kids' Season 8, though), got a bit better each Season, up until Season 12, then got worse in Season 13, awesome at the beginning of Season 14 in the first 5 eps, and then basically trolled all of us and started replacing the BGM again. The replacement has continued into Seasons 15-16 as well.

    So yeah, that about sums everything about that up.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 8th September 2013 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Well I find the quality pretty equal in both dubs with different strengths and weaknesses.

    Style wise I prefer TPCI's actors personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by PokeDot517 View Post

    3. Less Love for the show?
    |
    I do think that TPCI doesn't care about the show as much as 4kids did also they probably care about money more too. I'm not trying to make them seem like money whores but I think they dub the anime mostly for a profit sadly. :(
    Both TPCI and 4kids were in it for money. Hate to say this but I've always believed this since season 1. It became even more obvious during my course.

    I've been around people who are in the industry for the love of cartoons. The actors of both companies are people who love what they do. The crew of both companies love what they do but the actual companies heads are not.

    When companies come out with profit talk as their main focus that means that's all they care about.

    4kids was profit focused and was hunting for the next cash cow. When they realised their mistake it was too late because they were in debt and practically collapsed. It wasn't bad dubbing that killed them but an absolute obsession in wanting some to be a cash cow like what pokemon was even when they had Pokemon in the first place. They kept picking up merchandise cartoons in hopes for a profit. Al kahn showed a real lack of knowledge with the industry to boot.

    TPCI always talks about profits and sales aswell. It'll be interesting to see how long they last on this alone.

    Duart is probably the first western company in some time to earn my respect. I've been studying them and there's so much on their love for the industry and love for making cartoons it's amazing. They're a company that's in it for the love of it. Unfortunately TPCI gives the command and restricts them. I can only imagine what they would do with pokemon if they had more freedom and money. They actually went to so much trouble with a short for a film festival by actually getting a live orchestra. It's disheartening to think they are restricted with pokemon.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikaminccino View Post

    The actors of both companies are people who love what they do. The crew of both companies love what they do but the actual companies heads are not.

    When companies come out with profit talk as their main focus that means that's all they care about.


    Duart is probably the first western company in some time to earn my respect. I've been studying them and there's so much on their love for the industry and love for making cartoons it's amazing. They're a company that's in it for the love of it. Unfortunately TPCI gives the command and restricts them. I can only imagine what they would do with pokemon if they had more freedom and money.
    Bolded and italicized certain lines you said: I agree 100% with you on these points.

    Really, I blame the higher ups of both companies, because it seemed like a lot of the actors and production team from the 4Kids dub were very sad they were not allowed to work on the dub anymore when the switch occurred, and the current voice actors and production team from the TPCi dub seem to like what they're doing too.

    Neither 4Kids or TPCi are great in my eyes as companies, but for once, the lesser of the evils here is actually 4Kids to me. They were most certainly still in it for the money, for sure, but they cared a little more about the anime in my eyes.

    What I find sad about it, most of all, is that the actors and production teams of both dubs have had to suffer because of the mistakes of both companies.

    It's not just the dubbers' fault, though. I would say TPC JPN is really no different from 4Kids or TPCi anymore. It's sad, but true, IMO. All the companies were/are in it for profit. Any business is, really, but what's sad here is that Pokemon wasn't always so profit-focused.

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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Pros: They get dubbed and it can be seen on TV.

    Honestly I don't care about either dubs I just watch because I want to watch the series.

  15. #15
    I poke your snoot UnovaCastaway's Avatar
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    Default Re: TPCI or 4Kids: Pros & Cons! (In My Opinion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post

    I also think the 4Kids voice cast cared about the fandom more than the current cast does. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    TPCI VAs do care about the fandom! Michele Knotz is a very bubbly individual who likes to talk to fans as much as possible. Many of the VAs show up at cons. I've met Michele, Bill Rogers, Jamie McGonnigal, and Mike Pollock, and a couple others that way.

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