Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    This thread deals with both Team Rocket's eventual return to the show, and Ash's destination after the Unova League. Since it pertains to two different (but connected) topics, I think that creating a new thread is warranted.

    As we know, the recent two-parter ended with Team Rocket returning to Kanto. Some people interpreted that as being their farewell, but that impression is not supported by the lack of closure or the explicit promise to viewers that Team Rocket will definitely return to the show; the two-parter is merely considered to be Team Rocket's final battle in Unova. It is quite reasonable to assume that we haven't seen the last of Team Rocket in Best Wishes, even though it is unlikely they will return to Unova (as that would defeat the purpose of having them leave the region in the first place).

    We also know that at some point in 2013 a chibi figure set of the Kyun Chara series will be released. It will feature James, Jessie, Meowth, Ash, Pikachu, Eevee, Lucario, Oshawott, Snivy, the first-stage Kanto starters, Charizard, Mewtwo and Mew; more Pokémon will be announced closer to release. As you can see, there is heavy focus on Generation I critters. We also know that Eevee will appear in the Unova League (which will most last until January 2013) and it is quite possible that Kotetsu's Riolu will evolve, too. But unlike Eevee and Lucario, the Kanto starters and legendaries aren't included in the current Season 2 poster or opening, which would stand to reason if they were to appear after the Unova League (at which point a new opening and poster are to be expected, although I don't expect to see a Season 3 labeling). I think that there is a very good chance that the Kyun Chara set will be correlated with the post-league saga of Best Wishes, meaning that Ash will return to Kanto and encounter Team Rocket, Mewtwo and Mew, as well as being reunited with his Kanto starters.

    Now, the idea of a third Kanto journey does seem repetitive. But Unova is the only region featured in the current games, and there is really not much left to do with it after the league. While some towns were skipped (Aspertia, Floccesy, Lentimas, Black City and White Forest), Ash didn't have any reason to visit them in the first place. If the writers had wanted him to stay in Unova until the end of series, it would have made far more sense to leave East Unova unexplored, with the Junior Cup taking place in Aspertia or Floccesy. It's not as if the Meloetta two-parter necessitated going to East Unova, either, considering that the water temple isn't even based on the in-game Abyssal Ruins. About the only good reason to stay in Unova would be if the writers suddenly wanted to incorporate the Team Plasma story (in very little time given that they haven't even been introduced), but there is no evidence of that being the case seeing as it has been promised that Team Rocket will return.

    As Ash's home, Kanto is the default region that the writers can turn to for a "filler" saga. Granted, they can invent their own region akin to the Orange Islands, but that's arguably creative hassle that they only opted to do in 1999 because they had just finished covering Kanto (the only game region at the time). For the Battle Frontier saga, the return to Kanto was arguably justified by FireRed and LeafGreen being recent games, but the writers didn't showcase any characters from those games (except for Misty and Gary, who would have returned regardless of the remakes) and the Sevii Islands would have been a better way to promote the remakes. In every saga, most episodes don't pertain to game locations or characters, so the post-league sagas can pretty much be set anywhere. In the same way that the Battle Frontier was moved to Kanto, so could the World Tournament cups, which would allow the writers to continue promoting the B2W2 games. This time, if the writers actually wanted to adapt the World Tournament more closely than they did in the Junior Cup, a return to Kanto would be ideal for showcasing some of the previous gym leaders. It is notable that an upcoming Best Wishes DVD set will contain all the Kanto gym episodes. In fact, most of the Best Wishes DVD sets contain Kanto episodes, and generally speaking, the writers haven't been shy about drawing parallels between Unova and Kanto.

    As for Team Rocket, I'll be bold and suggest that their next plot may involve Mewtwo and Mew again. Giovanni's memory of Mewtwo was wiped out in Mewtwo Returns, but at least Meowth (and I believe also Jessie and James) wasn't affected. It would be interesting if now that the TRio are back in Kanto as Giovanni's lead henchmen, they were to remind him of Mewtwo's existence. It would be much more significant if Team Rocket's last mission in Best Wishes actually involved their history, which was an element sorely lacking from their Unova missions. At the same time, the writers would need to be careful not to be repetitive, considering that Mewtwo and Mew appeared together twice (although the last appearance merely involved their artificial counterparts) and were each given separate appearances. To make things different, it would be a good idea to incorporate Genesect into the arc. Since it is fairly obvious that the real star of Movie 16 will be a Generation VI Pokémon, chances are that Genesect's role will be relatively minor. The writers might want to compensate for that by giving it a role in the show, as they've just finished doing with Meloetta. In fact, its anime appearance could lead to Movie 16, as was the case with Mewtwo back in 1998.

    While Team Plasma created Genesect in the games, that doesn't have to be the case in the anime. In fact, only a single scientist from Team Plasma showed interest in Genesect in the games, and the actual team never tried to use Genesect to faciliate their plans. In the anime, the scientist could either be replaced with Dr. Zager, or he could join Team Rocket under the reasonable assumption that Team Plasma has disbanded (but even in that case it would be simplest if Dr. Zager turned out to have originally worked for Team Plasma).
    Last edited by Silktree; 9th October 2012 at 05:38 AM.

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    Moe
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    I've said before that there has to be some reason everyone is being sent to Johto, and the most obvious Team Rocket plot to my mind at this point would be involving the Goldenrod Radio Tower - the radio show in the real world I think helps that as a possibility.

    I think however the main thing is that this is a plot device to return to the comedic Pikachu stalking - they now have renewed reason to take get it for the boss (even if you don't assume that Giovanni was directly interested, the trio are). A return to headquarters just allows them to get their old Pokemon back and recover some personality, and the distance between Kanto and Johto makes a Johto centric plot possible, even if the actual extent of the involvement of the characters sent off to Johto is to make a phone call to Oak/Ash about suspicious radio broadcasts.

    Of course discounting my Johto theory (which is mostly based on thinking that Ash could take on the Johto Battle Frontier) - the Lavender Radio Tower could just as equally serve for a Team Rocket Radio related plotline, and Silph Co could be associated with the creation of Genesect in the Anime, which I think is a plotline worth exploring - though I can't think of much of a reason to have Ash explore Kanto again - sure he could visit home after the league, but he still needs something to do for the next year or whatever until the next generation games.

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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    I'd personally much rather see Johto again and you're right that the Radio Tower plot would be interesting to see (arguably more so than anything involving legendaries), but if that were the case I don't see why Giovanni wouldn't say that Johto was their next target. That would have been the best way to hint at Ash going there, as I doubt we'll see Dawn's second Wallace Cup and Kotetsu was obviously wrong about the Unova League being held in Ecruteak City. Granted, right now we can only assume that Team Rocket have retreated to their headquarters, but why would the writers emphasize the return to Kanto if it were temporary?

    I really don't see any reason why the writers would bother with the Generation IV Battle Frontier at this point. But the World Tournament cups can be set anywhere, including Johto. I believe that a lot of Ash's old Pokémon will be featured, but the abundance of upcoming Charizard toys indicates that it will stand out yet again. Still, that definitely doesn't rule out Johto. For all we know the tournaments could be scattered between Kanto and Johto due to their proximity. The best reason for Iris to stick around for the post-league saga would be going to Blackthorn City and participating in a Dragon Expert tournament.
    Last edited by Silktree; 8th October 2012 at 05:30 AM.

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    Moe
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Going back to Kanto was to get Giovanni back to his office to then make whatever the next move is for Team Rocket as an organisation. Giovanni has only moved between the Veridian Gym and Headquarters other than the one trip to Unova - while the trio would go around the world. No reason that Giovanni would be directly involved in future events, especially not needing to be in the same location as where the trio are.

    TR would take some time before getting active again (say up until the league finishes) and could start plotting from there, with the trio having a new sense of purpose and a goal in mind - whatever that may be.

    The main thing to me is that I don't think Team Rocket would venture to Unova again, especially directly after their failure, but on the flip side there's little reason to have Ash leave Unova - the lack of a game set there means there's no reason for him to go to any other region - which therefore would mean another Team Rocket appearance this generation is unlikely (but their appearances this time around were sporadic, until they've been gone for 20 or so episodes we still won't have any real idea if that episode was the end in my view). Ash is at least aware of the other Battle Frontier because of Palmer and Caitlin could be used as a way to bring it up again in Unova.

    In short, because there is no game reason to go outside of Unova until the end of this generation, unless another reason exists to take him back to Kanto/Johto (of which I think the BF is the best), I can't see much of a path to showing Team Rocket again this series. If the writers go with a World Tournament or other battle quest that isn't already in the games, then it'd almost certainly be set in Unova, which then makes Team Rocket reappearing unlikely.

    Though really all they need to do is just go to Pallet Town and take Ash's Pokemon there while he's competing in the league (then Pidgeot sees it all happening and flies the whole way to Unova to warn him...).

    Blackthorn City and Iris sounds about the best idea for an Iris related plot I've heard (and a great place to leave her behind).

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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    which therefore would mean another Team Rocket appearance this generation is unlikely (but their appearances this time around were sporadic, until they've been gone for 20 or so episodes we still won't have any real idea if that episode was the end in my view).
    But it is likely given their Live Caster promise. It would be weird if that were in reference to the next generation. Why would they be written out of the show without closure for as long as a year and then come back? That would be too long a time to leave the fans wondering about the characters' future, which certainly wouldn't help keep Best Wishes' ratings afloat.

    If the writers go with a World Tournament or other battle quest that isn't already in the games, then it'd almost certainly be set in Unova, which then makes Team Rocket reappearing unlikely. \
    Why? The Hoenn Battle Frontier was moved to Kanto, and the World Tournament's connection to past gym leaders is as good a reason as any to move it to Kanto and/or Johto. The games get away with bringing all the gym leaders to Unova (because Game Freak were too lazy to add a second region to the sequels), but the anime shouldn't have to do that. The Junior Cup could easily be separate from the advanced cups, about which we admittedly know nothing in the anime.

    I just don't see why the writers would choose to cover most of East Unova, Opelucid City and the Dragon Village before the league if they wanted Ash and co. to stay in Unova for the entire series.
    Last edited by Silktree; 8th October 2012 at 06:41 AM.

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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    I think its fairly likely what's happening. Much like Jessie giving up Contests at the end of DP, what TR do tend to foreshadow what's coming next.

    Team Rocket have been written out of Unova, or else the TRio would have stayed and only Giovanni/Zager would have left in the copter. That means Ash is likely leaving Unova immediately after the league, just like Ash left Hoenn immediately after the league.

    TR going to Kanto is quite interesting because that's where it all began and where their main base is. If Team Rocket have a real conclusion its only fitting that it would take place in Kanto where it all began. There's also the possibility we'll see this tie-in with legendaries more associated with TR.

    Lastly, there's a possibility the World tournaments or Champion league will be held in Kanto, giving Ash something to do alongside the TR plot. Since there is no new plot from the games to do and all the Gym leaders are covered, there is really nothing else for Ash to accomplish until the 6th gen comes. Therefore more World Tournamnets leading to the Champion league make sense.

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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    This is quite a good theory...

    ...though I don't get why they would return to Kanto. If that was so, then maybe B2W2 would have Kanto.

    Then again, it has the WT, so, I guess this is quite a great theory.

    But we know that the writers will dissapoint us once more...
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    The group will NOT be heading to Johto because if they cared for that it would have happened when HGSS was actually advertising the region. Besides TR's operations are in Kanto, not Johto, and that's where it makes sense.

    Is it repetitive visiting Kanto for a possible third time? Well considering the regions Ash goes to are basically all the same (Battle Frontier was Kanto in name-only most of the time), it shouldn't make a difference. Plus seeing Ash enter a Champion league in Kanto gives a eery sense of closure...

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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Or - the HGSS advertising return to Johto was always planned, but was dropped when it became clear they were running out of time for the next generation. Clearly to me something went wrong about the pacing of how DP ended, and watching BW seems like they are overcompensating for that by rushing through everything, which makes it very hard to predict how much or little they will do in the post-league episodes.

    Team Rocket aren't the main characters of the show, so it's not going to take place in Kanto just to be on Team Rocket's home base - if the future for Team Rocket was planned in enough detail for that, then last week's episode wouldn't have been as vague about their future. An anime only island is just as likely as Kanto or anywhere else if it came to doing something that isn't based on an in game mode.
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    Or - the HGSS advertising return to Johto was always planned, but was dropped when it became clear they were running out of time for the next generation. Clearly to me something went wrong about the pacing of how DP ended, and watching BW seems like they are overcompensating for that by rushing through everything, which makes it very hard to predict how much or little they will do in the post-league episodes.
    They purposely made a year gap in between the last two Gyms BECAUSE they didn't want to do a whole new filler arc, and instead stretched out Sinnoh.

    Team Rocket aren't the main characters of the show, so it's not going to take place in Kanto just to be on Team Rocket's home base - if the future for Team Rocket was planned in enough detail for that, then last week's episode wouldn't have been as vague about their future. An anime only island is just as likely as Kanto or anywhere else if it came to doing something that isn't based on an in game mode.
    Team Rocket sometimes foreshadow what's happening next. When the Sinnoh GF aired and Jessie gave up Contests, even back then, a lot of people predicted the Contests were getting the axe next generation.

    TRio have been written out of Unova. This leads me to believe the writers have plans to get Ash out of Unova as soon as the league ends. Really reminds me of Hoenn...and how they immediately got him the hell outta there after his loss.

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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    The group will NOT be heading to Johto because if they cared for that it would have happened when HGSS was actually advertising the region. Besides TR's operations are in Kanto, not Johto, and that's where it makes sense.

    Is it repetitive visiting Kanto for a possible third time? Well considering the regions Ash goes to are basically all the same (Battle Frontier was Kanto in name-only most of the time), it shouldn't make a difference. Plus seeing Ash enter a Champion league in Kanto gives a eery sense of closure...
    You do remember that Team Rocket had far bigger missions in Johto than they did in Kanto, right? Most importantly, Giovanni's showdown with Mewtwo took place there, but there were also the missions with the red Gyarados, Lugia and Raikou. Don't go out of your way to make it seem that revisiting Johto would be pointless to their closure.

    As I said, Kanto and Johto's proximity makes it possible for both regions to be (partially) revisited. In fact, the majority of the last 20 episodes of the Battle Frontier saga were set in the border between Kanto and Johto (the route between Tohjo Falls and the Indigo League), and the Manaphy movie even took place in Johto's sea. The writers would be wise to do something more significant than that this time around, so that a third Kanto journey wouldn't be repetitive. They seemingly randomly mentioned Blackthorn and Ecruteak in the last Junior Cup episode, but what if those references weren't random? Iris has a very good reason to go to Blackthorn (preferably before she is written out), and if the writers ever wanted Ash to meet Ho-Oh, Ecruteak would no doubt be the best place for it. The episodes with Morty were the only ones that highlighted Ash's connection to Ho-Oh, foreshadowing that one day Ash would summon Ho-Oh at the Tin Tower.

    None of this would be about game promotion. The only thing the writers should do in that regard is incorporating the World Tournament as best as possible. The rest would be about making the most of the time they have left until the next generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    The mere fact that the "World Tournament" was turned into the Junior Cup in the anime shows the writers couldn't care less about focusing on older characters.

    Dawn was only there for the usual regional token girl cameo.
    Lastly, there's a possibility the World tournaments or Champion league will be held in Kanto, giving Ash something to do alongside the TR plot. Since there is no new plot from the games to do and all the Gym leaders are covered, there is really nothing else for Ash to accomplish until the 6th gen comes. Therefore more World Tournamnets leading to the Champion league make sense.
    Contradiction much? Or are you implying that the rest of the tournaments will be just like the Junior Cup? Meaning that you expect Iris, Cilan and the Unova rivals to steal screentime? Because that's the real reason the Junior Cup was just another tournament. Even then, it brought Dawn and Cynthia back.
    Last edited by Silktree; 9th October 2012 at 02:18 AM.
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    You do remember that Team Rocket had far bigger missions in Johto than they did in Kanto, right? Most importantly, Giovanni's showdown with Mewtwo took place there, but there were also the missions with the red Gyarados, Lugia and Raikou. Don't go out of your way to make it seem that revisiting Johto would be pointless to their closure.
    TR's homebase is Kanto and where Giovanni said he was heading. I don't even know why Johto speculation is being brought up.

    None of this would be about game promotion. The only thing the writers should do in that regard is incorporating the World Tournament as best as possible. The rest would be about making the most of the time they have left until the next generation.
    Ho-oh can fly over Kanto as in the past.

    Contradiction much? Or are you implying that the rest of the tournaments will be just like the Junior Cup? Meaning that you expect Iris, Cilan and the Unova rivals to steal screentime? Because that's the real reason the Junior Cup was just another tournament. Even then, it brought Dawn and Cynthia back.
    I expect the Champion league to be Ash only facing against other league winners and then Elite 4 characters. I don't expect any old league winners to return, just for the writers to make up new random guys.

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    Moe
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    TR's homebase is Kanto and where Giovanni said he was heading. I don't even know why Johto speculation is being brought up.
    Perhaps because Team Rocket never have and never will be the reason why anyone goes anywhere? We don't even know if Team Rocket will ever appear again, let alone an arc dedicated to them forming the basis of Ash travelling around Kanto for the third time.

    As for regions for any-post league story,

    In Johto's favour we have a major game arc that hasn't been used at all (one of the very few there are), a bunch of other characters going there and more mentions of it than would be normal for just any old region.

    In Unova's favour we have the fact it is the only region in the current generation of games, and the possibility that perhaps Ash wins the league this time around so would stay to compete against the Elite Four (which would explain a return of old Pokemon).

    In favour of a new region/archipelago, there's no need to limit things to what is in the games and you're not promoting an old game either. There's far more scope for an anime only tournament to occur in a new place with a single use, as then you can write all the other destinations on there to help make storylines for Iris and Cilan, which is harder to do in places you've already been.

    In Kanto's favour, Ash lives there?
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    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ho-oh can fly over Kanto as in the past.
    So you want to see it fly over again and that's that? I thought that you wanted closure, which would mean actually doing something with Ho-Oh. Obviously, Ecruteak would be the best place for that.

    I expect the Champion league to be Ash only facing against other league winners and then Elite 4 characters. I don't expect any old league winners to return, just for the writers to make up new random guys.
    Then you don't expect to see the World Tournament; what you're suggesting would just be a single tournament. I am also confused as to what makes you think that the Unova Elite Four would be involved in Kanto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe
    In favour of a new region/archipelago, there's no need to limit things to what is in the games and you're not promoting an old game either. There's far more scope for an anime only tournament to occur in a new place with a single use, as then you can write all the other destinations on there to help make storylines for Iris and Cilan, which is harder to do in places you've already been.
    They didn't have any problem with crafting a storyline for May in Kanto; Iris and particularly Cilan require less work. An older region doesn't really limit the writers at all; it just gives them opportunities to revisit locations that may actually be relevant to the story they want to tell now.
    Last edited by Silktree; 9th October 2012 at 10:30 AM.
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    So what's your wish? Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: Speculation about Team Rocket and Kanto

    While that is a nice theory, there isn't much reason to send Ash back to Kanto (except the final episode with him going home) since the current games don't feature Kanto at all. Mewtwo and Mew don't really have any connections as of now. The Mastermind of the Mirage Pokemon was quite unexpected around the end of AG, but you could capture Mew in Emerald and Mewtwo in FRLG so it could be argued as a promotion. The anime doesn't always act on its own, but it reflects the games a lot. Just because TR went to Kanto doesn't mean Ash has to. TR could very well come back sometime later to get on with their usual Pikachu hunting.

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