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  1. #421
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    And if you want to get downright technical and argue there's only "one" pokémon canon
    But that is not my argument and that is not my position. If you want to argue with me, I'd ask that you argue against my argument and not, once again, your own misconstruction of what I'm saying. I think the Animé is it's own independent universe with its own rules and its own storylines, characters, etc. and that it constitutes an independent whole separate from the games, though inspired by them. The Animé never aimed to work itself into the mythology of the games, take its characters, its storylines, etc.

    Here, the very nature and content of this radio show conflicts with the events and nature of the source material making both mutually exclusive with one another, but since that's long as hell, I'll just say not canon. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Fine, let's call is a frustrated voice actors' vanity project. Happy?
    Happy you're insulting well respected voice actors for no good reason? No, I'm not.
    Wasn't their disappointment that lead to the Nyasu arc? I seem to recall either you or Dogasu reporting as such...
    Phoenixphlare likes this.

  2. #422
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    I'll just say not canon. :D
    Yeah, but at that point you're injecting your own opinion into what is and isn't canon. At which point your canon has officially become fanon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  3. #423
    Clap Clap Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Wasn't their disappointment that lead to the Nyasu arc? I seem to recall either you or Dogasu reporting as such...
    That was just a theory, but I don't see what that has to do with wanting to do a radio show somehow making them vain. And you'd have to include Rica with them as well since she's been trying to get on the show for months.

  4. #424
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    I'll just say not canon. :D
    Yeah, but at that point you're injecting your own opinion into what is and isn't canon. At which point it is precisely fanon.
    Once again, you're stepping away from the argument to make it about the person making the argument. A canon in fiction is defined as a cohesive set of storylines, characters, setting, events, history, etc. It forms a cohesive whole. The nature, content and structure of the show contradicts the cohesive whole of the Pokémon Animé, ergo, they do not share a canon. Much like the games and the Animé, they are two separate entities making one not canon in relation to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Wasn't their disappointment that lead to the Nyasu arc? I seem to recall either you or Dogasu reporting as such...
    That was just a theory, but I don't see what that has to do with wanting to do a radio show somehow making them vain. And you'd have to include Rica with them as well since she's been trying to get on the show for months.
    It depends, I think if the sole purpose of the show is for the VA's to do the old TR out of boredom, frustration or just nostalgia, then yes it's about what they want and the show would stem from that, which is what I assumed based on what was reported by rocket fans at the time. Don't worry, I won't ever make the mistake of thinking you and Dogasu are right ever again! ; )

  5. #425
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Once again, you're stepping away from the argument to make it about the person making the argument. A canon in fiction is defined as a cohesive set of storylines, characters, setting, events, history, etc. It forms a cohesive whole. The nature, content and structure of the show contradicts the cohesive whole of the Pokémon Animé, ergo, they do not share a canon. Much like the games and the Animé, they are two separate entities making one not canon in relation to the other.
    Yeah, but the people who define what is canon and what is not are called "authors". It is a rather fundamental point: someone who is not an "author" does not get to define "canon". Such a person instead define something that may be termed "fanon"; usually preceded by the terms "their own personal".

    It is, therefore, quite necessary when trying to distinguish between canon and fanon to examine the person making the claim. This is not a matter of making the debate about that person, but simply of determining whether or not they are an authority, or present finite proof from an authority, on the question of what is and is not canon.

    Now, let us examine the person claiming non-canonicity here: a known North American. It is established that the Pokémon anime is produced in Japan, and written by people who originate locally. You, being North American, and Japan NOT being North American, we can affirm that you are not, in fact, one of the writers.

    Now armed with this knowledge, let us again examine your claim: that the radio show is not canon. Does the claim originate from an authority in the matter of anime canon? No, we have established this. Is it supported by statements to that effect by people who are authorities in the matter of anime canon? It would appear not; at least you have provided none.

    Is it, therefore, the result of the personal opinions and interpretations of someone who is not one of the writers? It would appear so.

    The non-canonicity of the radio show is, therefore, best described as "fanon" and "Your own personal". As personal fanons are a pure matter of opinion, which can never be right nor wrong, there is absolutely no point debating it.

    Oh, and for the record, "debate the ideas, not the posters"? You're interpreting it wrong, and to your own self-advantage, as usual (that one part was debating you, not your ideas).
    Jeshi and martianmister like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  6. #426
    前向き! fruitsmoothierevenge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    The nature, content and structure of the show contradicts the cohesive whole of the Pokémon Animé, ergo, they do not share a canon. Much like the games and the Animé, they are two separate entities making one not canon in relation to the other.
    How can it be contradictory to the content of the show if Sakaki himself is saying on the Twitter, Operation Tempest starting! Gonna take over Isshu! (paraphrasing, of course), something that's referenced ten minutes later in the anime episode that's airing real-time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment
    It is a rather fundamental point: someone who is not an "author" does not get to define "canon".
    As the TRio would say, Pin pon! Maybe someone should ask Mima? ^_^;
    I don't even like fruit smoothies. Give me a double-tall half-caf latte with foam any day.

  7. #427
    zzz YamiiDenryuu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by fruitsmoothierevenge View Post
    How can it be contradictory to the content of the show if Sakaki himself is saying on the Twitter, Operation Tempest starting! Gonna take over Isshu! (paraphrasing, of course), something that's referenced ten minutes later in the anime episode that's airing real-time?
    ... Great, now I have this mental image of Giovanni tweeting casually about all his evil plans between scenes or something.

  8. #428
    ∠(>w<) #634 Argy's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Team Rocket breaks the fourth wall quite a bit in the anime series. I don't see why this radio show is any different.

  9. #429
    Electric Obsession sunyshore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Argy View Post
    Team Rocket breaks the fourth wall quite a bit in the anime series. I don't see why this radio show is any different.

    i am not a part of this debate, but i wanted to pitch in how true that is:

    "Drat! We wasted this episode cheering the good guys!"
    "Erugh!!!"
    "Right James! Better luck next time."


  10. #430
    Caught in a lab romance~ Araragi-hakase's Avatar Head Administrator
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiiDenryuu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fruitsmoothierevenge View Post
    How can it be contradictory to the content of the show if Sakaki himself is saying on the Twitter, Operation Tempest starting! Gonna take over Isshu! (paraphrasing, of course), something that's referenced ten minutes later in the anime episode that's airing real-time?
    ... Great, now I have this mental image of Giovanni tweeting casually about all his evil plans between scenes or something.
    Between laughing at pictures of Persians with witty captions on them on the internet, yeah that's probably pretty much what he does all day

  11. #431
    SEX SEX SEX Jeshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Araragi Hakase View Post
    laughing at pictures of Persians with witty captions on them on the internet
    So this is what he's been doing for the last 1,5 years! :D

  12. #432
    ロケット団よ永遠 Dogasu's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion
    Wasn't their disappointment that lead to the Nyasu arc? I seem to recall either you or Dogasu reporting as such...
    Don't worry, I won't ever make the mistake of thinking you and Dogasu are right ever again! ; )
    If pointing out that an article exists where one of the Rocket VAs expressed her dislike of the direction the trio went in BW, and then speculating that it's *maybe* the reason for the arc is "reporting" then sure, I "reported" that.
    martianmister likes this.
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  13. #433
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    Yeah, but the people who define what is canon and what is not are called "authors".
    Which I in no way disagree with and have never tried to pretend otherwise. You're missing the point I'm making here. The very concept of canon is tied to fiction, i.e. a fictional world that an author has created. even historical fiction falls into that category because not every line of dialogue, not every author's interpretation of historical figures are going to be accurate and the history is turned into a story, a narrative. When you exit the field of fiction to concentrate on real facts, real opinions, real perspectives, real people's real lives unromanced, you fall into another genre that is non-fiction or essay or biography or, in this case, interview where the very concept of canon does not apply. This is a talk show where real voice actors talk about their experience on the show, their own lives and their own feelings, in a funny environment. It's not canon, it's not even fiction.

    It is a rather fundamental point: someone who is not an "author" does not get to define "canon". Such a person instead define something that may be termed "fanon"; usually preceded by the terms "their own personal".
    I agree, and I'll even go further and say it goes both ways. I mean, following your own reasoning, am I wrong to assume you share the same negative opinion towards Musashi and Jeshi brushing away criticism on the canonicity of this radio show and imposing their own canon unto other fans? After all, they're not authors. Their only proof to support their claim is that it was "official" which, as we've already discussed is no proof at all. Several official merchandise have been disregarded by show creators, even though actors or show writers collaborated on them. I mean, Pokémon Smash is official and I see no one claiming that the cosplays in it are canonical. XD

    Oh, and for the record, "debate the ideas, not the posters"? You're interpreting it wrong, and to your own self-advantage, as usual (that one part was debating you, not your ideas).
    And yet, I'm not debating while throwing words like retarded and delusions. But since you're using them, I'm glad we've established they're breaking no rules and can be used by regular users when they're trying to discredit someone. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogasu View Post
    If pointing out that an article exists where one of the Rocket VAs expressed her dislike of the direction the trio went in BW, and then speculating that it's *maybe* the reason for the arc is "reporting" then sure, I "reported" that.
    That's very big of you to admit it. XD

  14. #434
    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    And yet, I'm not debating while throwing words like retarded and delusions. But since you're using them, I'm glad we've established they're breaking no rules and can be used by regular users when they're trying to discredit someone. :P
    I called the debate retarded, and I stand by that. Debating the canonicity of facts without any statement either way by the authors or a clear on-screen statement, is a retarded activity. You're not arguing about what's canon, you're arguing over whose fanon is best. That's utterly futile and, indeed, retarded.

    I apply that view to anyone debating canonicity without any specific authorial statement.

    The very concept of canon is tied to fiction, i.e. a fictional world that an author has created
    The concept - a body of work or texts that "set the standard" or "set the rules" - predates its use in fiction by just a few millenia. Fiction only got around to borrowing it with the Holmes Fandom, where it generally meant "stuff written by Conan Doyle" as opposed to "stuff not written by Conan Doyle". The concept is fundamentally the same in all cases.

    you fall into another genre that is non-fiction or essay or biography or, in this case, interview where the very concept of canon does not apply.
    An interview, biography or essay that contribute hitherto unknown information about a fictional world can be, if it appears to reveal hitherto unknown information about a fictional work, become part of canon for that fictional work.

    Witness the "History of Middle Earth" series, a history or essay about Tolkien's writing. Large part of which are considered by many to be part of Middle Earth canon.

    Their only proof to support their claim is that it was "official" which, as we've already discussed is no proof at all.
    In your interpretation of how the canon work. In mine, "Official" is generally proof of canon (as it reflect work either created by or approved by the creators), absent very significant evidence otherwise. Musashi may have yet another standard. Nothing at all in this world or any other make your standard superior.

    At the end of the day, Canon is largely a dead concept even within the fields that spawned it - it became dead around the time religions largely lost the ability to enforce canon. Only fandoms cling to the notion of an absolute canon. But the truth is, even in fiction there is no such things. The only canon that matters is the personal canon of each author; which only matters to the extent that they feel constrained by their own canon in writing new pieces of work.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 7th October 2012 at 10:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  15. #435
    Clap Clap Musashi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pokemon Radio on Twitter

    Pokemon Radio Show!ロケット団ひみつ帝国 | InterFM : インターFM [ 76.1MHz TOKYO / 76.5MHz YOKOHAMA ]

    They updated their show page to reflect their new mission of trying to do a chorus version of Team Rocket Forever. The twitter also mentions doing a live radio broadcast by the end of the year!

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