Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he? - Page 2

View Poll Results: Was Ash really that bad during his first badge quest?

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  • Yes

    19 44.19%
  • No

    9 20.93%
  • He got better over time

    15 34.88%
  • Answer not listed

    2 4.65%
  • Don't really remember Kanto that well...

    1 2.33%
  • He has always been and will always be a "novice" or "rookie"

    6 13.95%
  • Don't really care...

    3 6.98%
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Thread: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Problem with this is that your working under assumption how Staryu is weaker than Starmie was but there is no evidence to support such theory. Especially when Staryu ended as Misty most used pokemon not only in Kanto, but afterwards too dealing with much tougher opponents than Starmie did and as such showed higher level of skill and competence if you ask me.
    Even in Cerulean battle it showed to know more than just spinning around like Starmie along with being more dexterous.

    I believe cases of Ash Pikachu or Bulbasaur, Dawn Piplup, Tyson Meowth and many other other showed how unevolved forms can often be stronger than evolved ones depending on amount of training and experience pokemon receives.

    You can take it whatever way you want as far as outcome goes, but i have to respectfully disagree with your inference not being very convincing for me.
    Yes, the show has showed us that unevolved Pokemon can be strong and Starmie never really did much from what I remember compared to Staryu. Although, I'm not sure how much we should factor in later events for a battle that took place relatively early in the series, especially when neither Staryu or Starme were that impressive in this particular battle. However, I think that you're assuming too much from my point. My belief that Pidgeotto could have defeated Staryu doesn't really have much to do with Staryu being unevolved. It had more to do with how it could take down Starmie, who hadn't battled at that point, relatively easily, so Staryu, assuming that she could have called it back again, would have been at more of a disadvantage due to how it had already battled against Butterfree. Pidgeotto barely took much damage, if any, while Staryu did take some damage and could have been tired out even after being in its Pokeball for awhile. While it wouldn't be a guarantee victory for Ash, I definitely don't think it was a fifty-fifty chance. It was leading more towards Ash given how the match was going.

  2. #17
    I just divided by 0. Psychotic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I would. Pidgeotto had pushed Starmie to the brink and Staryu had already battled against Butterfree. Even if she could use Staryu again, I don't think that Pidgeotto would have much trouble when it could deal with Starmie relatively easily. It really wasn't something that could go either way at that point. If Team Rocket hadn't interrupted them, the chances are quite good that Ash would have won.
    Problem with this is that your working under assumption how Staryu is weaker than Starmie was but there is no evidence to support such theory. Especially when Staryu ended as Misty most used pokemon not only in Kanto, but afterwards too dealing with much tougher opponents than Starmie did and as such showed higher level of skill and competence if you ask me.
    Even in Cerulean battle it showed to know more than just spinning around like Starmie along with being more dexterous.

    I believe cases of Ash Pikachu or Bulbasaur, Dawn Piplup, Tyson Meowth and many other other showed how unevolved forms can often be stronger than evolved ones depending on amount of training and experience pokemon receives.

    You can take it whatever way you want as far as outcome goes, but i have to respectfully disagree with your inference not being very convincing for me.
    Actually, Ash had the upper hand in this battle since Butterfree did not actually faint, he simply recalled it. This means when Team Rocket interrupted Ash was up 2-1 and Misty was very much on the back foot. Also, you're working under the assumption that because of specific incidents where a Pokemon defeats its evolved form all Pokemon can defeat their evolved form which is simply not true; it's actually a logical fallacy. We can at least tell you that a fully Pokemon has significantly higher base stats than it's pre-evolved form. Finally, I'd like to point out that if Pikachu wasn't being a scumbag Ash probably would have destroyed Misty(but I suppose that's not important).

    I really hated Kanto gym battles. Diving in water removes paralysis? What? These kinds of mechanics really bothered me and make it hard to watch the Kanto saga in general IMO.
    Last edited by Psychotic; 18th July 2013 at 01:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Finally, I'd like to point out that if Pikachu wasn't being a scumbag Ash probably would have destroyed Misty(but I suppose that's not important).
    Her sisters did actually make this point as one of their reasons for giving Ash the badge. Misty didn't really seem to disagree with it either.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by garrison-san View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Finally, I'd like to point out that if Pikachu wasn't being a scumbag Ash probably would have destroyed Misty(but I suppose that's not important).
    Her sisters did actually make this point as one of their reasons for giving Ash the badge. Misty didn't really seem to disagree with it either.
    Oh, thanks. It's been a while since I've seen anything from the original series.
    Once I find something interesting. I'll put it here.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Yes, the show has showed us that unevolved Pokemon can be strong and Starmie never really did much from what I remember compared to Staryu. Although, I'm not sure how much we should factor in later events for a battle that took place relatively early in the series, especially when neither Staryu or Starme were that impressive in this particular battle. However, I think that you're assuming too much from my point. My belief that Pidgeotto could have defeated Staryu doesn't really have much to do with Staryu being unevolved. It had more to do with how it could take down Starmie, who hadn't battled at that point, relatively easily, so Staryu, assuming that she could have called it back again, would have been at more of a disadvantage due to how it had already battled against Butterfree. Pidgeotto barely took much damage, if any, while Staryu did take some damage and could have been tired out even after being in its Pokeball for awhile. While it wouldn't be a guarantee victory for Ash, I definitely don't think it was a fifty-fifty chance. It was leading more towards Ash given how the match was going.
    Even if we account only their battle abilities showed prior and during that battle Staryu still showed more impressive move set and higher level of resistance knowing swift attack, rapid sin, tackle and water gun along with enduring several tackle attacks from Butterfree and stun spore. As well higher level of agility using skillfully swimming pool to his advantage when starting to hit Butterfree with rapid spins.

    Compared to Starmie only move used against Pidgeotto being tackle which as such didn't inflicted much damage to Ash pokemon.

    As for continuation of battle just because Pidgeotto brought Starmie down to critical state doesn't mean how pokemon was out of use. Especially when Ash himself wasn't sure if he would manage to win badge or not judging by his dialogue after TR got blasted of.

    More so if we go under assumption how Pidgeotto knocked out Starmie, there is no concrete evidence that Misty wouldn't be able to surge of with Staryu. Since it wasn't much weakened by Butterfree with recalling back in battle giving him some time to recuperate and strength and rest.

    Something we already saw countless times before with Ash Noctowl for example which got weakened by Ghastly and Hinter still managing to find strength to defeat Gengar. Or Swellov against Katie being able to defeat both Venomoth and Scizor.
    Cameron whose Riolu managed to defeat three of Ash pokemon, or vice versa Pikachu which battled two of his pokemon knocking them out still being able to put up fight with Lucario.

    Going under conclusion how Ash would have won can work both ways. Because Staryu could had enough energy left in itself to turn things around proving already to be issue when getting Butterfree down for the count.

    Making me believe how this could have been anyone game. But for the sake of stopping arguing let just agree to disagree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post
    Actually, Ash had the upper hand in this battle since Butterfree did not actually faint, he simply recalled it. This means when Team Rocket interrupted Ash was up 2-1 and Misty was very much on the back foot. Also, you're working under the assumption that because of specific incidents where a Pokemon defeats its evolved form all Pokemon can defeat their evolved form which is simply not true; it's actually a logical fallacy. We can at least tell you that a fully Pokemon has significantly higher base stats than it's pre-evolved form. Finally, I'd like to point out that if Pikachu wasn't being a scumbag Ash probably would have destroyed Misty(but I suppose that's not important).

    I really hated Kanto gym battles. Diving in water removes paralysis? What? These kinds of mechanics really bothered me and make it hard to watch the Kanto saga in general IMO.
    You might want to rewatch episode than, because it was stated by Misty in canon how Ash lost with Butterfree in round 1. Probably to prevent his pokemon from drowning with Staryu being about to finish Butterferee forfeiting battle. Same like Brock did with his Geodude in PK1 battle tournament against Hitmontop, or when Pryce decided to forfeit counting as technical lose with his Pryce vs Pikachu for example.

    Considering how it was confirmed in episode that Butterfree lost and Ash was about to most likely defeat Starmie with Pidgeotto result would be 1-1.
    With no one having upper hand or leading at that point.

    As for Staryu vs Starmie in term of strength. I believe you misunderstood my point. Which was how just because evolved form has higher base state in games doesn't necessarily mean how unevolved form is going to be weaker.

    Needless to say comparing Staryu with Pidgeotto as far as evolution goes is like comparing apples to oranges. Considering how they are pokemon from different species with evolution stage not having as much prevalence like it would have been case if Staryu actually battled against his evolved form Starmie. Or Piddgeotto against Pidgeot.

    Confirmation to that comes from battle itself with Staryu not having problems in defeating fully evolved from Butterfree at that point. But i could count numerous other examples as well with pokemon strength not being determined just by size, but often battling spirit, level of skill or speed it possess.

    Being form of logical fallacy. Considering how just because Misty had both evolved and unevolved form of same specie doesn't mean how evolved form would be necessarily stronger than its unevolved form. Especially when basing on frequency of using Staryu and battle abilities he showed in that and several other battles indicates how her unevolved form could indeed be stronger.
    Even in newest episodes she was showed in its always Staryu used over Starmie logically indicating how he has more experience due to ending engaged in more battles.

    As well more resistant with Starmie being fairly fragile with his core starting to glow usually after just one stronger tackle or roll attack as showed with Geodude or simple gust attack.

    Speaking of Pikachu he is irrelevant in here because battle between pokemon is decided by those who entered battle and not from those who were outside of it. Needless to say type advantage isn't something which is impossible to overcome as anime multiple times showed with Daisy statement of "Pikachu annihilating Misty team" who was deemed as weak and careless trainer and almost got gym closed in future being unreliable source if information for anything battle related.

    But ok ill give you that it is safe to presume how she didn't had any developed counter moves and defense against electric pokemon at that point.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 18th July 2013 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    .
    Wait, so Misty is allowed to recall her Pokemon as much as she wants but Ash isn't? Oh god writing in Kanto was awful.

    Alright, you seem to be misinterpreting my comment about Pokemon evolution, and I think that's my fault so I'm gonna clear up. I was comparing Starmie to Staryu. Since at this point in the anime we didn't know anything about either Pokemon it's logical to say the evolved form is stronger because when a Pokemon evolves it becomes more powerful in the form of stats. This is accepted in both the Anime and the video games, so what I was trying to allude to was the idea that If pidgeotto could melt Starmie with relative ease it should have no problem dealing with Starmie's unevolved form in Staryu who was on tilt after dealing with Butterfree, and to say that Staryu was stronger than Starmie with knowing really anything about either Pokemon is in fact a logical fallacy. I believe its actually known as a Base-rate fallacy. If I recall correctly Misty left Starmie at the ceruleun gym and thus Staryu got more experience traveling with her so I can buy that it passed Starmie in levels to the point it doesn't matter if it's unevolved but during this episode it means nothing. You are putting a lot of stock into this notion that because Staryu appeared to be stronger in future episodes it was stronger during that episode which is again, a logical fallacy. The only thing we can say about Stayu in this episode is that it knew watergun and what appeared to be rapid spin/tackle all three of which are underwhelming offensive moves.

    Just to make something clear, I do not at all believe Staryu is weaker than Pidgeotto because Pidegotto is in its second stage of evolution while Staryu hasn't evolved. That's very wrong and I'm sorry If I gave the impression I thought that. I believe Pidgeotto could have defeated Staryu because It quite easily defeated Starmie who is statistically much stronger than Staryu.

    Upon re-watching the battle scene and reading the bulbapedia page on the battle/episode I think the gym battle was suppose to resemble a round based system that we saw several times later in the anime(eg Ash vs Hoenn Drake) where a each trainer has to use a different Pokemon each round. It makes no sense if Misty is allowed to substitute Pokemon when Ash isn't. That would have been the only time in the anime where the Gym leader had a clear cut advantage over the challenger. That means Misty could only use Starmie and Ash could only use Pidgeotto and given the circumstance Ash had the advantage over Misty and was ready to claim victory.


    I don't want to turn this into a Misty centered thread so if you wanna continue to discuss this I think we should go to PM's.
    Last edited by Psychotic; 18th July 2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychotic View Post

    Wait, so Misty is allowed to recall her Pokemon as much as she wants but Ash isn't? Oh god writing in Kanto was awful.

    Alright, you seem to be misinterpreting my comment about Pokemon evolution, and I think that's my fault so I'm gonna clear up. I was comparing Starmie to Staryu. Since at this point in the anime we didn't know anything about either Pokemon it's logical to say the evolved form is stronger because when a Pokemon evolves it becomes more powerful in the form of stats. This is accepted in both the Anime and the video games, so what I was trying to allude to was the idea that If pidgeotto could melt Starmie with relative ease it should have no problem dealing with Starmie's unevolved form in Staryu who was on tilt after dealing with Butterfree, and to say that Staryu was stronger than Starmie with knowing really anything about either Pokemon is in fact a logical fallacy. I believe its actually known as a Base-rate fallacy. If I recall correctly Misty left Starmie at the ceruleun gym and thus Staryu got more experience traveling with her so I can buy that it passed Starmie in levels to the point it doesn't matter if it's unevolved but during this episode it means nothing. You are putting a lot of stock into this notion that because Staryu appeared to be stronger in future episodes it was stronger during that episode which is again, a logical fallacy. The only thing we can say about Stayu in this episode is that it knew watergun and what appeared to be rapid spin/tackle all three of which are underwhelming offensive moves.

    Just to make something clear, I do not at all believe Staryu is weaker than Pidgeotto because Pidegotto is in its second stage of evolution while Staryu hasn't evolved. That's very wrong and I'm sorry If I gave the impression I thought that. I believe Pidgeotto could have defeated Staryu because It quite easily defeated Starmie who is statistically much stronger than Staryu.

    Upon re-watching the battle scene and reading the bulbapedia page on the battle/episode I think the gym battle was suppose to resemble a round based system that we saw several times later in the anime(eg Ash vs Hoenn Drake) where a each trainer has to use a different Pokemon each round. It makes no sense if Misty is allowed to substitute Pokemon when Ash isn't. That would have been the only time in the anime where the Gym leader had a clear cut advantage over the challenger. That means Misty could only use Starmie and Ash could only use Pidgeotto and given the circumstance Ash had the advantage over Misty and was ready to claim victory.


    I don't want to turn this into a Misty centered thread so if you wanna continue to discuss this I think we should go to PM's.
    About pokemon recalling there is no evidence that Ash wasn't allowed to recall pokemon too. He simply decided to forfeit battle with Butterfree being about to end up defeated anyway.

    Now about comparison between Staryu and Starmie your hypothesis would hold more ground to it if we didn't already saw better move set and battle abilities from unevolved form in that battle. Both Butterfree and Pidgeotto were evolved forms with no one leading much in battle experience up to that point. In fact both of them were caught in same episode with Butterfree in its forms battling up to that point Pidgeotto when Ash tried to catch it, TR beating their Ekans and Koffing, Samurai Metapod and later Beedrill swarm.

    Pidgeotto battled TR Ekans and Koffing losing, wild Weedle, Samurai Pinsir and Brock Geodude.

    As such Staryu arguably battled just as strong opponent Butterfree like it was case with Starmie and Pidgeotto. However difference is that Staryu showed more resistance receiving more damage compared to Starmie not being on verge of losing, had wider move set with rapid spin being more effective than simple tackle and gave out impression of being on higher level even than.

    We also cannot ignore fact that Misty had both of them before she met Ash not being cleared up who was caught first and how often she used either of this two pokemon. As such it would be false to exclude possibility that Staryu may had more experience when battling Ash in Cerulean than Starmie did regardless of later one being evolved form making him statistically stronger in theory.

    Statistic don't determine outcome, especially in anime battles which involve more than just type advantage/disadvantage and data. Making whole assumption questionable being appeal to silence or ignorance. Since just because we have no concrete proof that Staryu was stronger doesn't necessarily mean it was weaker than Starmie up to that point either.

    For instance let say in martial arts we have fighter which is heavier and has bigger muscle strength, while opponent is lighter and weaker, but more agile and experienced in such battles.

    Does that mean subject A would have higher chance to win just because he is physically stronger? Not really with strategy, speed and knowledge playing large factor in such battles with opposing side being in more favorable position in such aspect.
    Pomemon wise and Pikachu vs Raichu, Poliwhirl vs Poliwrath, Snivy vs Servine etc examples all add up to it.

    As far as pokemon exchanging goes even if each side could only use different pokemon for each round, considering how Ash Butterfeee lost and in second duel Misty Starmie was on verge on getting defeated if battle was finished result would remain 1-1 with such format making no sense. Since only way for challenger to be winner than is in winning both rounds in row.
    On other hand Trovita gym from Orange vs Rudy is perfect example of format where each side isn't allowed to exchange pokemon with battle being formed of three battles where different pokemon are used for each.
    Like i explained before each gym has different rules setting them up to its advantage or tradition they follow. As such as Lenora gym in Unova showed in some of them its allowed that both leader and challenger exchange pokemon in battles which could be policy specific for Cerulean too.

    Even more so when Misty actions when recalling Staryu seemed like she decided to have it some rest after match with Butterfree and save it for later. Rather than counting as loss, where as in that case she would probably leave it in battle to try wear down Pidgeotto abit before Starmie would take over.

    p.s. I don't want that this turns into topic solely about Cerulean gym either and aologies if i caused any inconvenience, but i also wanted to clear up misunderstanding of what i wrote and why it would be unfair and in general false imo to claim how "Ash was in favorable position for winning just because he came back with Pidgeotto". Especially when he already lost first round with there not existing reliable evidence of Starmie being Misty strongest pokemon.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    I liked pity badges, they broke the norm and were all backed up by a good story. Also, he was a rookie.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario View Post
    I liked pity badges, they broke the norm and were all backed up by a good story. Also, he was a rookie.
    I don't think that they were all backed up by a good story, but I don't think that Kanto was particularly good in regards to its battles and overall writing. They were different, but it also prevented less battles for Ash to actually earn the badges. Though, battles in Kanto generally weren't that good, but it would have been better to see Ash actually battle instead of getting pity badges. Being a rookie doesn't really justifies them either. The only one I could use that reason for is the first badge because of how that was overall handled, but just because he was a rookie doesn't really justifies getting five pity badges and only earning three through actual battles.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    I like Pokemon for the adventure aspect more than battling, honestly. Battles are fun in the games, but in an anime adaptation, it's best if it doesn't take priority over everything else. I don't really want to see just battle after battle, and if it has to be done it could at least be backed up by a decent story.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario View Post
    I like Pokemon for the adventure aspect more than battling, honestly. Battles are fun in the games, but in an anime adaptation, it's best if it doesn't take priority over everything else. I don't really want to see just battle after battle, and if it has to be done it could at least be backed up by a decent story.
    I like it for the adventure aspect more than battling too, and I don't really want to see battle after battle all as well, but as the gym battles are an important part of the adventure, being the battles that show how much the main character has grown, it's a bummer to see the main character get the badges that show his progress get received in a bad way. It doesn't make him look any good, and it certainly doesn't show how much he's grown. OS was originally meant to be the only saga in the anime, so having the show end with more than half of the Gyms' badges being treated poorly would just reflected terribly on Ash and hamper the adventure aspect further.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Unova saw him win each badge fairly, but not many would say he looked good.

    The same could be said for any battle (except random training battles), they show his progress. And even some training battles (like Ash vs. Dawn in BW2) show how far at least one of them has come, that's why I say gym battles aren't really needed for that.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario View Post
    Unova saw him win each badge fairly, but not many would say he looked good.
    I wouldn't say he won each badge fairly in Unova, but at least he did look better than in Kanto.

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario View Post
    The same could be said for any battle (except random training battles), they show his progress. And even some training battles (like Ash vs. Dawn in BW2) show how far at least one of them has come, that's why I say gym battles aren't really needed for that.
    There's a difference between training battles and gym battles though. Gym battles give Ash a reward for his efforts that is important, while training battles don't. It's and official and important match. If he got the badged unfairly, it just makes him look bad. The main point of the anime is to help advertise the games, and with pity badges that doesn't help.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario View Post
    Unova saw him win each badge fairly, but not many would say he looked good.
    I wouldn't say that he won each badge fairly either. He got them through battling, but there are a good chuck of badges where he got them through cheap victories so it wasn't so deserving.

    Quote Originally Posted by moneylesswario
    The same could be said for any battle (except random training battles), they show his progress. And even some training battles (like Ash vs. Dawn in BW2) show how far at least one of them has come, that's why I say gym battles aren't really needed for that.
    Like HumanDawn mentioned, there's a difference between training battles and Gym battles. The Gym Leaders are generally strong trainers who are meant to test trainers' skills and give them a reward for defeating them. Those badges allow for trainers to get into a League. A battle against a regular trainer isn't nearly that important and Gym battles need to show that kind of progress, as opposed to just any regular battle. Pity badges, or badges that were earned in a cheap fashion in general, isn't going to help with that.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Performing good deeds is all well and good, but the purpose of Pokémon League gyms is to test the skills, not deeds, of the trainer. Students certainly wouldn't get A's in school for giving to charity or helping to fund the school - and instead, must work diligently to earn that grade - and the same principle applies to Pokémon Trainers working to earn their gym battles if they want to enter the Pokémon League. It just wouldn't prove anything about the trainer's abilities or that he's ready for the Pokémon League - and the fact that Ash got so lucky in the first round of the Indigo League says something.

    I will say that I didn't mind how Ash earned the Boulder Badge from Brock, because, even though he didn't actually win the match, at least there he showed maturity by calling off the battle when he thought that his win wouldn't have been fair when Onix got weakened by a sprinkler, and was even initially hesitant to accept the badge. He certainly deserves credit for such responsibility as a trainer, even in spite of how much he wanted that first badge. But "earning" the Marsh Badge because Haunter decided to show up and make Sabrina and her Kadabra laugh out loud... yeah, no.

    So, yeah, some of his Kanto gym badges were truly earned... and some of them were not.
    Last edited by Trainer Gabriel; 20th July 2013 at 11:51 AM.

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