Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

View Poll Results: Was Ash really that bad during his first badge quest?

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  • Yes

    19 44.19%
  • No

    9 20.93%
  • He got better over time

    15 34.88%
  • Answer not listed

    2 4.65%
  • Don't really remember Kanto that well...

    1 2.33%
  • He has always been and will always be a "novice" or "rookie"

    6 13.95%
  • Don't really care...

    3 6.98%
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Thread: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

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    Default Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    One scene from his Kanto days that will stick out to me was in "Abra and the Psychic Showdown." Remember after his loss to Sabrina he and his friends had to be rescued by Sabrina's Dad (the jogger). Then he warned him AGAIN to not challenge Sabrina and that any attempt would be foolish. He then kept blasting Ash away with telekinetic powers. At one point brought down his pants and had him doing the same "dance" (which sort of resembled the Thriller Dance) that Kadabra made Pikachu do in its match using Psychic.

    images-14-.jpg

    After that Ash pleaded with him to tell him the secret to beating Sabrina. Ash was literally crawling to the jogger's feet begging for help despite being weighed down with his psychic abilities but he REFUSED to give up. Seeing that amount of guts from a plucky 10-year-old convinced him to tell Ash to go capture a Ghost Pokemon and use it to beat Sabrina.

    Ash goes to Lavender Town to face, battle and capture a Ghost Type, "dies" in the process and even after he decides not to capture one of his new "friends" he decides to face Sabrina again even without a Ghost Pokemon and in the end Haunter decides to come along, it makes Sabrina laugh and he wins a badge...um...ok...

    The point of this thread is to show that Ash might have gotten over half of his first set of League Badges out of pity or simply because he displayed random acts of kindness but he truly did have a strong sense of bravery, determination and character. I mean he was "fighting" a person with psychic abilities in an attempt of discovering a way of defeating the toughest trainer he had faced at that point and possibly one of the strongest he has ever faced; Sabrina. I mean seriously that bitch was completely psycho!

    Just goes to show that even though Ash didn't have the brightest mind out of the other trainers going for the league, he proved that guts can take you far but with strategy you can go even farther than that.

    Let me do a quick run-down of how Ash showed character in his gym matches;

    Brock; after losing the first time, he was going to give up having lost his first Pokemon Gym Match so badly but thanks to some encouragement from Flint he powered up Pikachu in a way that was potentially dangerous but by using the wheel outside the hydroelectric mill/power plant as a treadmill he succeeded. He could have won that match but decided to stand down due to the sprinklers weakening Onix

    Misty; I'm only mentioning the events BEFORE the match happened. He was going to take the badge after Daisy offered to him but also remember that he was hesitant saying that he wanted to earn his badges through battles not convince just because all the other Kanto trainers had won at the gym and Seel was their only Pokemon left (who Pikachu could have zapped and that would have been it) and then after Daisy kept insisting, Ash still hesitant was kind of like "What the hell?" and was reaching for it as Misty screamed out

    Lt. Surge; I think this was one of Ash's first displays of actual strategy in a battle (thanks to Brock's idea of using speed attacks) and that was what made this memorable not just because it was Ash's FIRST real win in a gym, Pikachu's first signs of not wanting to evolve or its win over its evolved form

    Sabrina; Already mentioned this above at the beginning of the post

    Erika; Even though he was indirectly a reason for the gym catching fire (he did help TRio get inside the gym) he risked his life going in the burning gym to safe Gloom

    Koga; Um...the episode itself was more about Psyduck so really Ash's gym match wasn't THAT memorable except for Bulbasaur using Whirlwind (illegally), Pidgeotto losing so bad (I feel bad for this bird, I love it to death but its battling record is not the most impressive one with most of his wins being against the TRio's Meowth balloons...) that it took Venomoth's Sleep Powder AND Stun Spore (which should be impossible since in the games you can only be affected by one major status condition not two; unless you count Confusion). Until TRio interrupted, it looked like Charmander as winning and then against Golbat the ONLY memorable moment worthy of note; FINALLY seeing Brock's eyes open during him being nailed with a Flamethrower from Charmander

    Blaine; Care for his Pokemon, he was smart enough to stand down against Magmar because Pikachu had been burned by Fire Blast and was shown to be exhausted. Instead of fighting until his Pokemon was defeated he wisely stepped down. Even Blaine commented that continuing the match would have been foolish and probably expelled him from being a trainer (I'll post my thoughts on this in another thread). Then in the rematch we see him and Charizard in sync to defeat Magmar and win the badge!

    TRio; Straight up determination and faith in himself and his Pokemon enough so that even Gary was impressed, let me repeat that...GARY MOTHERF**KING OAK was impressed!

    What do you think?

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    Registered User Darth Darkrai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    The Battles in some of the Episodes were ok but some were I think Cheesy and a bit Cliché to me a bit. The Ones I liked were 1,2,6,7,8. While 3,4,5 were really bad poorly done done I think.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    I think I prefer him getting badges for doing good deeds/being fast on his feet over him winning purely by deus ex machinas and dumb luck...
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by SammyW27 View Post
    I think I prefer him getting badges for doing good deeds/being fast on his feet over him winning purely by deus ex machinas and dumb luck...
    OOOHHH!!!! Never heard that answer to this question before! Great response! Never thought of it that way before and it is a very valid point!

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    I just divided by 0. Psychotic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Any battle is better than no battle IMHO.

    Kanto battles were insanely anti climactic. The Sabrina case is just the worst of the bunch. The entire premise of Pokemon battling is two trainers using Pokemon they captured to compete with one another. It's not really Pokemon if there isn't a complete battle to speak of.
    Last edited by Psychotic; 30th July 2013 at 05:08 AM. Reason: grammar 2 hard
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    I would prefer something of a mix of old, new, and what hasn't been done before. I like the early stance of him proving himself to Gym Leaders to get the badges, but I also enjoy watching a good Pokémon battle, it would be nice to see these two things interspersed and even mixed. Such as having him perform a good deed or a challenge from the Gym Leader before being allowed to battle them. I would also like to see the writers tackle something more interesting as well... him completely lose a badge. A loss so big that the leader refuses to face Ash again... or something like that.

    I actually have a series I've been toying with where the main character eventually makes it to a unique league unlike anything seen before that actually uses some of these ideas. But this isn't about that...

    Back to Ash though, I think the writers feel there aren't any unique challenges for him to anymore outside the occasional changing things up with double or team battles. They have forgotten that the show can take risks, and rightly should with the major plot points such as gyms. The best risk the writers took in a while was the attempt against Roxie for the Toxic Badge, and even that wasn't well written. Back when the show began they had no idea it would last for over a decade so they took a lot more risks with the storytelling. You can actually see the point about a third or so of the way into Johto when they realize they no longer need to take risks with the dropping of the GS Ball storyline. It's sad, but it is what they've chosen to do.
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    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by SammyW27 View Post
    I think I prefer him getting badges for doing good deeds/being fast on his feet over him winning purely by deus ex machinas and dumb luck...
    I can kind of understand that, but for me, both are pretty equally cheap and unsatisfying. The deus ex machinas and dumb luck wins at least usually involve a battle, even though it may not be a good battle with those flaws, but it still leaves me with the impression that Ash didn't deserve the badge.

    Anyway, I do think that Ash was pretty bad in most of his Kanto Gym battles. With Brock, he could have tried for a third time to battle after training more and capturing a Pokemon that would help him against Rock Pokemon, but out of the cheap badges, this is probably the one I have the least problems with. He at least didn't want to take it at first, even leaving the Gym before the match could be officially over, and since this was his first Gym badge, I could let it slide a bit. Plus, he did gain a friend in Brock as a result too. With the second badge, he could have asked for another chance to battle Misty in place of her sisters since he basically got the badge for taking care of Team Rocket for them. He was pretty close to beating her too, so a second battle wouldn't have been that bad.

    The match against Lt. Surge was fine. Ash had some decent strategy with Pikachu's speed attack, even though it was Brock's idea in the first place, and it was the first badge he earned from a battle. Sabrina's match had a lot of buildup, but little pay off at the end. For something that started out a bit creepy, ending the arc with Haunter just forcing Sabrina to laugh in order for Ash to win just seemed like such a letdown. Ash actually catching Haunter and battling against Sabrina's Psychic Pokemon would have made for a better end of the arc in my opinion. It would have at least been cooler. Erika's match was okay-ish at first, but then getting the badge for saving Gloom's life was kind of weak. Of course, she would be grateful for Ash saving her Gloom, but they just should have had a rematch instead. Even though he did earn Koga's badge with a battle, it felt rather lackluster due to how Psyduck got more attention and their battle felt more like an afterthought.

    Blaine's match was good and showed Ash in a pretty good light with valuing Pikachu more than any badge. Plus, Charizard vs. Magmar was pretty good. The match against the Team Rocket trio was pretty bad. Ash didn't even seemed to be able to do anything until Pidgeotto came out and even then, his other Pokemon were overpowered by the Pokemon they got from Giovanni. Even if they had to let him face the Team Rocket trio, they could have had him actually beat their borrowed Pokemon.
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Kanto's Gym Battles were for the most part no Gym Battles. The only good ones were 3rd, 6th and 7th, two of which were 1v1s. 6th was eventually Charmander's climb-up to double evolution. So, yup, there were not satisfying. Neither was Johto, from 2nd to 5th Gym Battles.

    Erika; Even though he was indirectly a reason for the gym catching fire (he did help TRio get inside the gym) he risked his life going in the burning gym to safe Gloom
    She was indirectly a reason herself, with her overreaction to Ash not liking perfume :))
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZexMachine View Post
    Kanto's Gym Battles were for the most part no Gym Battles. The only good ones were 3rd, 6th and 7th, two of which were 1v1s. 6th was eventually Charmander's climb-up to double evolution. So, yup, there were not satisfying. Neither was Johto, from 2nd to 5th Gym Battles.

    Erika; Even though he was indirectly a reason for the gym catching fire (he did help TRio get inside the gym) he risked his life going in the burning gym to safe Gloom
    She was indirectly a reason herself, with her overreaction to Ash not liking perfume :))
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    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Depends what you consider to be bad.
    Most badges Ash got in Kanto happened under unusual circumstances being result of courage and help he offered in saving gym leaders pokemon, gyms or overcoming unfair play and unexpected obstacles threw in front of him . With appropriate reward accompanying that.

    Of course to most people which got into pokemon through games and compared to way gym quest was handled in later generations such thing was unacceptable. Since one of main things characteristic for pokemon creatures and competitions is battling, assessing strength between two trainers and who has more knowledge and skill when being involved into clash.

    But on other hand we have to remember how Kanto was writers testing ground, their first saga they wrote for serving as groundwork on which they developed whole storyline and ideas which later formed this show in what they wanted for it to become eventually. They experimented testing out to see what works and what doesn't, having more liberty in adding their own ideas in way story would flow and as such acted accordingly to that.
    In a way i liked how not all gym battles back in Kanto were just battling and showcase of strength showing how there is more to it than just that. How good deeds, solidarity and someone merits can make difference between ending recognized as honest,unselfish and caring trainer. Or disrespectful and lofty.

    As such Ash unselfish nature and determination in risking his own life in saving other pokemon, hometown or fair play not wanting to battle someone in weakened state displayed he already has qualities of good, respectful trainer with writers probably wanting to what would be approved and rewarded by many in real life reflect on anime series. In form of leaving positive impressions on some gym leaders with his acts being enough in earning their respect and giving him badge as way of gratitude for what he did.
    In a way they made exception to settled rule.

    That said this doesn't excuse all of badges which Ash received in Kanto in unconventional manner with some of them being utter stupidity. So let's take a look at each gym battle:
    Brock: if sprinkles didn't got turned on his Pikachu would without doubt lose to Onix again, with receive of badge just because Ash was kind enough not to finish Onix of who didn't even ended in such ill condition through challenger strategy but side effects was complete bull.

    Misty: before TR interrupted match between her and Ash was more or less tied. However just because Ash defeated TR and saved Cerulean gym pokemon from menace which shouldn't had been there in first place doesn't justify receiving badge when battle wasn't even finished. Let alone ignoring fast how Ash although hesitated almost accepted badge from Daisy without battling.

    Lt. Surge: first legit battle which got finished. Initial defeat made him reconsider and change his current strategy developing new tactic with Brock help, learning how to use pokemon size(this case Raichu) against himself.

    Erica: this is probably only gym battle where battle wasn't finished and i feel Ash getting badge was justified. Yes battle never ended, however unlike it was case with Cerulean which was in some aspects similar to it. In here Ash went as far as risking his own life to save gym leader pokemon(Gloom) from fire and top on that helped to smoother down the flames and prevent Celadon gym from being burned down. This was exceptional and specific circumstance since Ash displayed perfectly his unselfish, passionate nature with everything he did for Erica deserving appropriate compensation for that.

    she probably found Ash already proved to have qualities of good trainer through care and devotion displayed toward pokemon not seeing need to do rematch. As well wanting to thank him for what he did for her.

    Sabrina: Complete fluke and possibly worst way Ash acquired badge ever. He didn't saved anyone life, didn't saved gym leader or pokemon from any danger. It was painfully obvious how Ash current level of skill was no match for Sabrina with her psychic pokemon being too much for him to handle. However since writers couldn't had let Ash leave Saffron without badge, they resorted to extremely contrived and paltry reason. Of making side journey to Lavender to catch ghost type which he failed in doing at, drag him to gym and do what? Make Sabrina laugh with simple prank apparently "having her come back to state she used to be in when she was child erasing all those years of sorrow, coldness and unscrupulous facade she built becoming emotionless, cruel person which experienced mental breakdown after her obsession hurting those she cared about".

    Nonsense at its finest.

    Koga: nothing much to comment on here, Battle even though interrupted was continued later on with Charmander rightfully defeating Golbat and earning Ash badge.

    Blaine: Same as Koga and likely best written gym battle from Kanto series. Especially with clash between Charizard and Magmar on top of volcano being highly exciting, intense and enjoyable to watch. you could tell he really worked butt there trying his best to defeat Blaine legitimate and win badge.

    Giovanni(actually JJM trio: regardless of unusual condition Viridian gym was put in, Ash defeated Jessie, James and Mewoth fairly not only beating borrowed pokemon from Giovanni but also knocking down their regular pokemon. Successfully overcoming their attempts of cheating at any cost through electric shocks and breaking rules by sending extra pokemon in battle.

    Some could argue it wasn't regular battle, but technically it was since Giovanni let them in charge of gym while he is absent giving them authorization to battle challengers and defend gym reputation. Which they were terrible at btw.

    So Ash overall ratio is:
    Fairly won badges: against lt. Surge, Koga, Blaine, JJM(Giovanni) and Erica (explained why i consider it fair).
    Unfairly won badges: against Brock, Misty and Sabrina.

    All in all not a bad score for first try being abit over the average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Plus, he did gain a friend in Brock as a result too. With the second badge, he could have asked for another chance to battle Misty in place of her sisters since he basically got the badge for taking care of Team Rocket for them. He was pretty close to beating her too, so a second battle wouldn't have been that bad.
    Not sure if i would call it close to beating her. She defeated his Butterfree, while Ash was close to beating Starmie. If anything result was rather draw with each side having one pokemon left at their disposal (Staryu and Pidgeotto).
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 17th July 2013 at 05:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Plus, he did gain a friend in Brock as a result too. With the second badge, he could have asked for another chance to battle Misty in place of her sisters since he basically got the badge for taking care of Team Rocket for them. He was pretty close to beating her too, so a second battle wouldn't have been that bad.
    Not sure if i would call it close to beating her. She defeated his Butterfree, while Ash was close to beating Starmie. If anything result was rather draw with each side having one pokemon left at their disposal (Staryu and Pidgeotto).
    It was close enough, as Starmie was basically finished. As for Staryu, later seasons would establish a rule that gym leaders cannot switch out Pokémon. You could interpret this to mean that a gym leader withdrawing a Pokémon counts as a TKO, so Staryu was probably done for the battle. Besides, if Pidgeotto could take out Starmie with relative ease, I doubt Staryu would've stood much chance.
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    I'll get to the point.

    Yes he was that bad, especially since the only one he sorta got through a legit battle was through charizard and even then it was clear the obidience was temporary.

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    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoMan View Post
    It was close enough, as Starmie was basically finished. As for Staryu, later seasons would establish a rule that gym leaders cannot switch out Pokémon. You could interpret this to mean that a gym leader withdrawing a Pokémon counts as a TKO, so Staryu was probably done for the battle. Besides, if Pidgeotto could take out Starmie with relative ease, I doubt Staryu would've stood much chance.
    Misty only commented how Starmie is low on energy though, so it could very likely be capable of continuing battle.

    Nevertheless anime showed us countless times how evolved pokemon doesn't always equal being stronger with amount of agility and battle skill Staryu indicated in that battle implying how it was on higher level than Starmie in reality was. Especially since Misty used him much more frequently compared to Starmie when being in same team later in seasons displaying more impressive move set and abilities, thus indicating how it could had been likely stronger than evolved form was.

    About rule of withdrawing pokemon counting as loss. To b e fair Lenora gym in Unova shows how its allowed for gym leader to exchange his pokemon depending on rules gym established to follow. Which could be one of policies specific for Cerulean gym too. Especially when Misty in no way indicated how she is forfeiting with Staryu admitting thereby defeat exchanging her before battle even began. If anything her action forebode how she decided to save Staryu for later using Starmie as part of strategy to probe Pidgeotto strength.

    Perhaps biggest evidence which insinuates this was dialogue by end of battle going between Ash and Misty. She reminded him how his Butterfree lost in round 1, with Ash responding back with how he managed to make comeback in round 2. Which was between Pidgeotto and Starmie.

    Granted whole situation was rather addle and can be interpret differently. But at same time there is no real proof that recalling Staryu counted as loss either. Especially when inconsistency and unexplained things was practice for first season with anime still experimenting.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Not sure if i would call it close to beating her. She defeated his Butterfree, while Ash was close to beating Starmie. If anything result was rather draw with each side having one pokemon left at their disposal (Staryu and Pidgeotto).
    I would. Pidgeotto had pushed Starmie to the brink and Staryu had already battled against Butterfree. Even if she could use Staryu again, I don't think that Pidgeotto would have much trouble when it could deal with Starmie relatively easily. It really wasn't something that could go either way at that point. If Team Rocket hadn't interrupted them, the chances are quite good that Ash would have won.

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    Default Re: Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I would. Pidgeotto had pushed Starmie to the brink and Staryu had already battled against Butterfree. Even if she could use Staryu again, I don't think that Pidgeotto would have much trouble when it could deal with Starmie relatively easily. It really wasn't something that could go either way at that point. If Team Rocket hadn't interrupted them, the chances are quite good that Ash would have won.
    Problem with this is that your working under assumption how Staryu is weaker than Starmie was but there is no evidence to support such theory. Especially when Staryu ended as Misty most used pokemon not only in Kanto, but afterwards too dealing with much tougher opponents than Starmie did and as such showed higher level of skill and competence if you ask me.
    Even in Cerulean battle it showed to know more than just spinning around like Starmie along with being more dexterous.

    I believe cases of Ash Pikachu or Bulbasaur, Dawn Piplup, Tyson Meowth and many other other showed how unevolved forms can often be stronger than evolved ones depending on amount of training and experience pokemon receives.

    You can take it whatever way you want as far as outcome goes, but i have to respectfully disagree with your inference not being very convincing for me.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 17th July 2013 at 11:54 AM.

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