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  1. #106
    Back From The Grave Charbok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    - I feel that most people who think that the original trio is the 'closest' or 'most important' group in the series is because 4Kids made them out to be that way. Most of those Pikachu's Jukebox/ 2.B A Master soundtracks were about friendship and staying together until the end of time. The same goes for Pokeshipping, because 4Kids added a bunch of hints that weren't there in the Japanese version. Plus we got gems like Misty's Song that pretty much stated that the writers at 4Kids were heavy Pokeshippers.

    - Max was one of the funniest characters on the show, but I think that mostly had to do with he dialogue 4Kids gave him. Some of his cracks about May or Brock when he flirted with a girl just made me laugh. Plus I loved how close he was with May. That's why the AG group is my favorite, because they just had something that the other groups didn't, and to me Max was that 'something.'

    - I agree that Cilan needs to do more than to just be the pretty bishonen character. Why not develop his Pokemon team a little more? Most of his pokemon just learn moves offscreen and that's not giving them any real development. I know it's important for them to develop Iris and her pokemon as well, but don't have Cilan just stand there and look pretty for most of the series.

    - The music changes in the dub never really bothered me as much as it bothers other people. Most of the time I'm not even really paying that much attention to the background music. I can understand them changing some of the music (like having a Japanese insert song playing in the background of a scene with everyone speaking English wouldn't really make much sense) and I'll admit that some o the changes are pretty bad, but usually I'm not even paying attention to it.

    - I also agree that Johto should have been its own separate series, or even Pocket Monsters 2 since the GSC games were sequels to RBY, with a new protagonist, although this may not really be that much of an unpopular opinion.

    Look Forward, Team Rocket!

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Oh yeah, I forgot about this one. Infernape was spotlighted on way too much and was the sole factor for why Ash's team got so little development in the latter half. It's also responsible for Torterra's ridiculous battling record.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    When was the last time you saw Ash think back about all the ''basics'' and feel grateful for that? I myself can't recall, and that's mostly because that I personally think that he learned the most of it by himself, and not them. They were supporting him, sure, and pointing out some mistakes, but As had his own type of bascis, which differs from other Trainers, and which he learned by himself.
    There is difference between having innovative, out of box thinking and clear stupidity. In beginning Ash had no idea about type advantages, pokemon strategies, basics at training and how league and several things work being clearly Brock and Misty merit for everything he learned in that field serving as guidance to establish groundwork, starting point from which he can continue to go forward and improve as trainer.

    Ash maybe had his own style, but his impulsive and reckless approach brought more harm than good until his friends guided him in right direction, creating bedrock which served as "stepping stone" for genuine growth and exploration of his own methods.


    ''without a doubt'' in your opinion. I hardly see that. As the matter of fact, I'd almost say that she influenced him the least. Ash has always battled in his own ways, and might have listened occasionally to his friends' words, but always went out battling by himself, surprising them in a positive manner rather than obeying them.
    Sorry but i cant even take this statement seriously . Right after Brock, Misty was companion which left biggest mark on his progression as trainer. She did not only helped him about strategies, pointed out his mistakes and criticized him for reckless and impulsive approach, which often cost him matches losing because of disobedience. But she also actually pushed him to train, influenced direction in which battle will went with her critics and motivation speech, served as inspiration invoking annoyance in Ash character wanting to prove her wrong which led to pass of several challenges; such as Ultimate test, right to battle Danny, to start using other pokemon more not relying only on select few like Charizard etc.

    She also often reminded him of important things he tend to forget, such as where to subscribe to enter pokemon league, ask for directions where and when to enter competition, corrected him when making false assumptions often acting like older sister which made sure to get him out of trouble. There were many times when he naively trusted Team Rocket, fall for obvious tricks(bad disguises, baskets of fruits in middle of road etc) with Misty holding him back from falling right into trap. She saved his life on multiple occasions guiding group out of danger, such as out of St. Anne ship, when they got lost in forest with no way out, when he lost consciousness in sea preventing him from drowning etc.


    What about the spin? If anything, that helped Ash win his first gym battles in Sinnoh, and just that is pretty much more than Brock and Misty ever did, considering that he actually developed it later to his completely own move, the Counter Shield.
    How exactly that makes her involvement holding bigger value than Misty or Brock left on him?
    Because as far as i can tell here are some things i can count from top of my head: Brock prepared strategy for Ash in Vermillion gym helping him to win badge, he had private talks before Kanto league helping him to pass element stadiums, Misty solved Blaine puzzles giving him right to challenge him to a match, gave him motivation to pass gym leaders like Blaine, Cissy or Claire, directly influenced outcome of battle against Rudy with Ash thanks to her help winning badge, helped him to come up with strategy against Macy, or Gary in Johto league etc.

    Dawn didn't prepared strategies, taught him about tactics and how to improve his skills, played role in his pokemon learning new attacks, pointed out his flaws and how to fix them etc with any new combination Ash tried being something he decided by himself to copy and try implementing in his own style.

    So no, Dawn definitely didn't contributed more to Ash success as trainer than Misty and Brock did.

    Oh, true. Brock did influence him a whole lot, that's very true. Misty, however... nah. She did at times, but Brock did influence him the most at that regard.
    Right here your contradicting yourself. First you say how Brock and Misty "barely had any influence on Ash, and now Brock suddenly played big role". In regards to that Brock helped Ash more about strategies and battling tips, but Misty served role of motivator which pushed him forward.
    When he got carried away becoming full of himself, she was voice of reason which brought him down to earth preventing him from humiliation and disaster, with time becoming less impulsive, gullible and rash trainer which was reflected on his Johto performance.
    She was catalyst which pushed him forward questioning his skills with impulsive reaction from his side allowing that he tries harder and betters himself as trainer, she forced him to train when he got lazy(namely in Kanto), and often baited him out of dangerous situations giving him lot of moral support and encouragement .

    Which is definitely important role.

    In other words, what you're telling me is that I didn't watch the OS? Please, those poor arguments of yours won't get you anywhere. Ash DID develop as a character, but mostly by his own effort, as he often took initiative and developed by going hiw own way.
    I don't recall i ever said or implied such thing, but some of your statements are raising up question if you remember well enough OS.

    However, with Iris and Dento, Ash actually got the boost to continue battling, which confronted him directly as he was nearly giving up due to a seemingly bad situation, without really beliving in himself or in his Pokémon. A character can always develop by making mistakes, definitely, but if the biggest mistake one can ever do is doubting himself and his own abilities, as that's the driving force to their strength.
    Let see, when Ash got nervous about battling Jeanette or Mandi in league Brock and Misty gave him boost to overcome challenge. When he doubted in himself after loss at Kanto league it was Misty who raised up his spirit. Same applies to losing situation against Rudy, preventing him from losing which led to Squirtle learning new move and turning things in his favor. When he got defeated against Gary, it was Misty and Brock which stood by his side giving him encouragement and push to go forward. Same applies to loss against Whitney, at grass tournament in Johto and several other challenges where he was in losing position.

    However unlike Iris and Cilan, Brock and Misty directly influenced flow of battle forcing Ash to change strategy, served as prelude which led to his pokemon learning new moves, came up with tactics which allowed him to surpass opponents against who he would've lost otherwise etc.

    Why would he do wrong if Misty and Brock have taught him so much? Why would he get carried away if that's something he has done previously, and thus learned by his mistakes?
    And until BW Ash consistently grew as trainer not going backwards in development, until semi reboot of new games happened. So that argument is invalid.

    Ash's second battle against Trip. His battle against Elesa. His battle with Snivy. It wouldn't take long until the both of them started to believe in his actions though, which was based on just following your heart and going with what feels right, ignoring type-advantages.
    We saw that with Misty and Brock in majority of battles he was in, providing him support and moral boost with their cheering.
    We aren't debating who cheered for Ash the most, but who helped him to develop as trainer learning to apply more strategy into his battles, start working more with your own pokemon and get know the most with tactics and pokemon battles.

    And those were Misty and Brock without any doubt, since when starting out Ash knew the least needing help and support from others the most.

    And he didn't come to his senses until THEY came in and interrupted.
    And why they had to interrupt? Because Misty ignited in Ash revolt and reaction, stopping to ignore everyone around and just pity himself in corner over loss like its end of the world. Therefore its Misty merit for going out of depression state.

    And from what I've seen, it also affects him the most as a Trainer, and confronts him the most as a Trainer too. So yeah.
    Explained above.

    Of course not. As I said, ''supporting pillars''. Ash could also have followed Misty's advice and use her Pokémon to win, but what would he have accomplished by doing so? He refused, and decided to go and win using his own Pokémon, in other words he did what he himself felt was right.
    Your missing the point in here. No one in here is disputing that Ash innovative way of battling and unorthodox strategies are his trademark and what suits him most.

    But im talking about ignorance, and stupidity in early days which often resulted in lost of match for him because of wanting to do things his own way, not listening to voice of reason. Such as using reckless approach against lt. Surge, Sabrina or Blaine which cost him winning battles. Not training his Charizard resulting in loss at Kanto league, becoming too confident in himself not showing willingness to train and work hard with pokemon until Misty and Brock intervened. Took for granted several strong trainers like Lorelei, Whitney or Gary losing easily because of becoming full of himself not listening to anyone advice.

    Misty and Brock were ones which guided him to right track starting to use in smarter way his pokemon, used more of strategy in his battles and stopped underestimating his opponents while mixing his own style into battles. Which was reflected on his Johto performance.

    You're makin it sound like he would've been a ''nobody'' without them. That's not true, for various reasons that I've already mentioned.
    No, but he wouldn't achieve nearly as much as he did during Kanto, OI or JOhto performance if it wasn't for support and help from his friends. Technically he wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for their help saving him from dangerous situations.

    Wait, what? Are you actually trying to pull out a negative side from having confidence in your friend? Dawn had confidence in him for good reason, because through their journey they had trained together a whole lot, probably more than he did with any other, and she knew perfectly well what he was capable of doing, thus had good reasons to believe in him as a Trainer, as she always had been there, training with him and going through hardships alongside him. Misty should've done that to, have more confidence in him, and then maybe she would've seen that he wasn't so incapable of battling like she thought he was.
    Difference is that in DP Ash was already experienced trainer, having pre knowledge and skills to go on bigger things not needing constructive criticism and questioning from Dawn side. Ash from Kanto, Orange and to extent Johto was a whole another story often making cardinal mistakes which led to easy defeats, didn't established his own battling style yet, thought he knows better than anyone around him with such hot blooded approach often bringing him in trouble.

    If it wasn't for Misty criticism, question of his battle strategy and arguing he wouldn't be able to realize his flaws, learn to be less impulsive and collected in battles , start to work more with his pokemon focusing on creating balanced and strong team rather than relying only on select few. Like he often used to do with Charizard, Pikachu or Bulbasaur back in day.

    Its same like with coaching of baseball, basktball, soccer etc teams. If you always give them compliments, not criticizing bad moves or reckless plays guiding them to realize what they did wrong it shuts down from start any chance to improve as players, learn on mistakes and use more effective strategy.

    Misty criticism and underestimation of skills was needed to ignite in Ash revolt training as result of that harder, to realize mistakes he did which leaded toward defeat , to not to be so gullible not falling so easily in obvious traps from TR side and learn how to become more mature and skilled as trainer over time.

    I'm done. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

    I know that you'll post one more time, but I won't read it, since I've finally gotten out all I wanted to say, and therefore only will ignore this. :)

    Besides, it's clearly getting off-topic.
    Fine by me, but i still disagree with majority of your points for various already stated reasons.

    For record i didn't started this debate either.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I don't think the original trio should have been reunited for Johto. Instead Tracey could have stayed and then Brock could come back for AG like he did. That way people might have appreciated Brock's return more if he stayed gone longer.
    Im not sure what was bad about original trio reunion in Johto? Drop in quality of writing wasn't caused by Ash, Misty, Brock existence but because of writers themselves and lack of direction in which they wanted to take show forward. No matter what cast was there, result would be the same.

    Also I don't like how people think the original trio is more important than any of the other groups. It was only ever used for about 50 more episodes than the others which in the anime means nothing. The writers never had any intention of reuniting the original trio and we all knew this back in 2004.
    People find original trio more important because it is group which started everything, setting up path for future generations. Because they were first piloting pokemon in achieving global popularity, ending as most iconic and recognizable cast of all time and because it was intended to keep them permanently in anime initially. Hence explaining longer run compared to other groups.

    In majority of TV shows first cast is viewed as most important, because if it wasn't for them there wouldn't exist show in first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilan View Post
    1. The original series is overrated, and although I do like Misty, she really didn't do anything to make her stand out. She may have been in more episodes than May, Dawn, and possibly Iris, but that doesn't make her more memorable. Plus her pokemon had little to no personality at all. Psyduck and Politoed were probably the only ones (and maybe Corsola.)
    Also, I don't think the original trio was as 'close' as most people think they were. It was mainly 4Kids that made the group seem like 'friends until the end of time' because of songs like My Best Friends and Together Forever. 4Kids made the group seem closer than they were probably made out to be in Japan.
    I respectively disagree. Misty was unique to many because she had wide range of emotions and sides to her personality, which often confronted each other having captivating ability to interact great with just about any character having one of most believable growths character went through in this show in persona sense, without losing its appeal.
    She was unique in sense of growing up without parents in sisters shadow, having sad and easy to relate for many story of having to work hard for everything she accomplished, being symbol of hard work and determination. She was outspoken, brave and loyal often going out of her way to help others about their problems, save people lives, save towns or villages from destruction(referring to Porta Vista city)and often bring her friends and others out of danger having caring and big heart for others, but also not letting anyone to mess up with her serving as good role model to many fans.

    She was also only one type trainer in cast , developing over time unique goal of striving to become strongest water trainer in world which is something many admired her for.

    As for original trio, i dunno. I watched them in Japanese version too and i still find they had closest bond as friends with no one being left out, with friendship with time growing coming to understand each other better feeling like family.

    2. If Ash kept Togepi then it would have actually did more and possibly evolved in Johto.
    It wouldn't evolve for same reason why Pikachu, Piplup and Axew didn't. Mascot status of second generation was getting in way of that.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 16th October 2012 at 04:34 AM.

  4. #109
    It's Detective Time! Cilan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    I don't really consider Togepi to be a mascot (or Axew for that matter.) I think that we should have at least seen it evolve in Johto. Togetic didn' have an appearance in the anime until AG when Misty's finally evolved. I think it would have made much more sense it it evolved in Johto, to further promote the games. In fact, Misty's Togepi was the only Togepi we ever saw in the anime until her AG appearance. I guess that mostly has to do with the fact that Togepi is this 'rare' pokemon you get as an egg in the game, but it should have at least evolved.


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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    I think the anime is just a children's show (whose production, plot, and characters are aimed at a demographic around 10 years old) and that any and all critical evaluation of it is extremely intriguing to me. It makes sense for children up to the age of around 15 to argue about these things. I begin to question the motives of viewers older than that.

    Would you criticize Guns N Roses for not having enough rap lyrics? Or, more relevantly, Cowboy Bebop for not having more high school tropes?

    Those are my unpopular opinions about the anime.
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    Skodwarde's Slave zakisrage's Avatar
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    I agree with those who say that they hate Paul. His cruelty towards his Pokemon is inexcusable. I'm surprised Team Galactic didn't ask him to join. He may be young, but he fits in with their mentality. I'd hold Team Rocket in higher regard than Paul in terms of how they treat their Pokemon.

    Paul is treated as cool, yet Ursula gets chastised by the same people. Sure she is a jerkass rival too, but at least she treats her Pokemon better than Paul does!
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by zakisrage View Post

    Paul is treated as cool, yet Ursula gets chastised by the same people. Sure she is a jerkass rival too, but at least she treats her Pokemon better than Paul does!
    I've actually seen nothing but praise for Ursula here.
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    "Playing around?" Wrong.

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    Future Seeker HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zakisrage View Post
    I agree with those who say that they hate Paul. His cruelty towards his Pokemon is inexcusable. I'm surprised Team Galactic didn't ask him to join. He may be young, but he fits in with their mentality. I'd hold Team Rocket in higher regard than Paul in terms of how they treat their Pokemon.
    OH TELL ME ABOUT IT! Every chance for him to get any development is flushed down the toilet to pointlessly glorify him. His attitude stunts his development and his "reason" to be a jerk is hilariously bad xD. Then people wonder why others think that he's a bad character xD.

  9. #114
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by zakisrage View Post
    I agree with those who say that they hate Paul. His cruelty towards his Pokemon is inexcusable. I'm surprised Team Galactic didn't ask him to join. He may be young, but he fits in with their mentality. I'd hold Team Rocket in higher regard than Paul in terms of how they treat their Pokemon.

    Paul is treated as cool, yet Ursula gets chastised by the same people. Sure she is a jerkass rival too, but at least she treats her Pokemon better than Paul does!
    I agree in someway. I don't like it how they say that Paul was so great yet Ash's other rivals were never that mean or cruel yet they get the shallow treatement. a.k.a Trip. I get his experience and strength but I would like more different opinions about Paul from other saying on how he could have avoided being cruel like that to Pokemon and still have been a good rival to Ash.
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    Back From The Grave Charbok's Avatar
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    I don't hate Paul, but I agree that he is definitely overrated. Like Cilan said, he's the anime version of Silver, but at least Silver got actual character development and even changed his ways towards the end of the game (at least in the remakes.) The whole thing with Reggie wasn't a good reason for him to act so cruel towards his pokemon either. With Silver we got a good reason (I mean he's Giovanni's son for one thing) but it's like with Paul, after the battle with Brandon they just stopped with his backstory.

    If you're gonna be a cruel trainer then at least have a good reason for it and actually have character development. This is why I prefer the snarky (Gary) or the comic relief (Barry) type rival for Ash. I'm not saying that a serious, cold type rival wouldn't work, but Paul wasn't handled very well in my opinion. I just wish they developed him a little more.

    Oh, and I agree 100% about Infernape overshadowing the rest of Ash's pokemon, and that was one of the reasons Torterra got screwed over.
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    Look Forward, Team Rocket!

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok View Post
    I don't hate Paul, but I agree that he is definitely overrated. Like Cilan said, he's the anime version of Silver, but at least Silver got actual character development and even changed his ways towards the end of the game (at least in the remakes.)
    I completely agree. Paul's only "character development" was in the League, and that didn't lead to anything satisfying mostly because him thinking that Infernape is awesome sauce should have happened when he evolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok View Post
    The whole thing with Reggie wasn't a good reason for him to act so cruel towards his pokemon either. With Silver we got a good reason (I mean he's Giovanni's son for one thing) but it's like with Paul, after the battle with Brandon they just stopped with his backstory.
    I never understood Reggie's sudden desire to become breeder. Only losing once to Brandon and then giving up came off as horrible to me. Seriously, this guy went through 4 regions and got 6 Frontier symbols and suddenly gave up? Talk about being completely unrealistic. We never even got a good idea as to how Paul was before. The only flashback to the past of him that we see is his mouth being open at Reggie losing so badly, because apparently that never happened before. I remember being so EXCITED TO SEE PAUL actually develop for once, but that's all thrown down the toilet to glorify him. "I've just lost because legendaries were used on me. I can't be beaten unless a Pokemon with godlike power is used on me.". He didn't say it out loud, but how his attitude didn't change or anything pretty much implied it. Oh and a 2 parter of Ash getting curbstomped after that. Because we didn't have enough of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok View Post
    If you're gonna be a cruel trainer then at least have a good reason for it and actually have character development.
    I used to think that it could have been because in his childhood, a Pokemon could have scared him or something, leading him to think that Pokemon are bad and should be used for power. That would have given him depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok View Post
    This is why I prefer the snarky (Gary) or the comic relief (Barry) type rival for Ash. I'm not saying that a serious, cold type rival wouldn't work, but Paul wasn't handled very well in my opinion. I just wish they developed him a little more.
    I was very happy to see Paul not being a "Happy Go Lucky" person, but then they overdid him being a jerk that his appearances consisted of him insulting those around him in the first 10 minutes of the episode, and the last 10 minutes being right, perfect and not giving much of a damn. He should have gotten payback or something. That would have lead to some development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok View Post
    Oh, and I agree 100% about Infernape overshadowing the rest of Ash's pokemon, and that was one of the reasons Torterra got screwed over.
    Oh Torterra <3 Yeah, I detested Infernape for being a big screen whore. Torterra was my favourite Sinnoh Ash Pokemon since it actually got good development at first. That was all flushed down the toilet to make Infernape look more godlike which is never explained why.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    If only Ash wasn't just as bad - he almost never recalls Pokemon in a bad battle position. The only difference is that Paul didn't tell his Pokemon 'great job' after he let them stay out far too long and get injured badly in battle. Ash's 'not being cruel to Pokemon' is asking them if they are okay when they are clearly not and having them take a few more hits when they inevitably nod.

    If Ash cared about Pokemon he wouldn't be totally stumped and helpless when it came to handling their illness on his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    If only Ash wasn't just as bad - he almost never recalls Pokemon in a bad battle position. The only difference is that Paul didn't tell his Pokemon 'great job' after he let them stay out far too long and get injured badly in battle. Ash's 'not being cruel to Pokemon' is asking them if they are okay when they are clearly not and having them take a few more hits when they inevitably nod.

    If Ash cared about Pokemon he wouldn't be totally stumped and helpless when it came to handling their illness on his own.
    What.

    You could say that to every trainer in the series xD. Ash's Pokemon keep on battling because they want to show to Ash that they'll fight till the end for him as a sign of gratitude for being so nice to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Human View Post
    You could say that to every trainer in the series xD. Ash's Pokemon keep on battling because they want to show to Ash that they'll fight till the end for him as a sign of gratitude for being so nice to them.
    Yeah, you probably could - there are way too few cases of someone knowing when to give up and going to train to beat them next time in the anime - the league is an obvious exception because it's what you've built up for - but even then swapping Pokemon before them being hit with the fatal blow still is a better tactic if being nice to Pokemon is the test. Last week's dub episode (Roxie's Gym) put Ash's carelessness front of mind, Unfezant gets poisoned, is clearly in pain, nods it's head saying it's okay, slams it self hard into Koffing, knocks itself out - achieving nothing but injuring itself for Ash.

    On the other hand most of Paul's Pokemon seemed to be quite willing to be pushed - Chimchar seemed to be the only exception, indeed because Paul was specifically training it in a different way trying to cause a Blaze reaction - I don't think anything he did with his Pokemon is any more cruel than the way Ash battles some times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    Yeah, you probably could - there are way too few cases of someone knowing when to give up and going to train to beat them next time in the anime - the league is an obvious exception because it's what you've built up for - but even then swapping Pokemon before them being hit with the fatal blow still is a better tactic if being nice to Pokemon is the test. Last week's dub episode (Roxie's Gym) put Ash's carelessness front of mind, Unfezant gets poisoned, is clearly in pain, nods it's head saying it's okay, slams it self hard into Koffing, knocks itself out - achieving nothing but injuring itself for Ash.
    And Ash feels disappointed in himself later on in that episode for failing so much and making his Pokemon get hurt like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    On the other hand most of Paul's Pokemon seemed to be quite willing to be pushed - Chimchar seemed to be the only exception, indeed because Paul was specifically training it in a different way trying to cause a Blaze reaction - I don't think anything he did with his Pokemon is any more cruel than the way Ash battles some times.
    That's true, but Paul was cruel to his Pokemon in the sense that if they disappointed him, he'd dump them as if they were nothing. While Ash's Pokemon would get hurt, they knew that battling for him and getting hurt is inevitable. He would treat them with respect back too.

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