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  1. #511
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    A lot of the Gym leaders aren't really focused on in depth in the anime, which is why some of them can be bland.

    Look at Marlon, he had one episode and most of the ep focused on Cameron over him.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCableGuy View Post
    Well, you're free to have your own opinion of course.
    But I think you're confusing a character not having an 'over-the-top' personality with having no personally.
    Forgive me if I don't believe that every character in Pokemon need to be a borderline loon,
    be girl-crazy, or have deep emotional problems to be said to have a personality.
    Read my post again. I've been saying "generic personality", not "no personality." Obviously they have personalities or else they'd be zombies. I'm bothered by the fact that many of the anime Gym Leaders are bland to the point where they might as well be the same character. If they couldn't think of a unique or memorable characterization, they could at least use the personality set forth by the games. If a Gym Leader *was* a loon in the games, there's no reason for him/her to be a Generic Anime Gym Leader™.

    (Especially in the original English dub, where almost all of the female Gym Leaders were voiced by Lisa Ortiz - that didn't help.)

    Granted that some of them had some shallow development:
    Tsukushi/Bugsy, for example, showed very little personally, but he was introduced in and remained for the duration of only a single episode
    but honestly, not every character introduced need to be integral to the story beyond a single battle.
    They're important characters from the game. If you're going to make them boring and as forgettable as a filler character, then that's a problem.

    Also, again, the anime has no excuse for this beyond lazy writing. All of those uninteresting filler episodes in Jouto, for example, could have been put aside to develop in-game characters.

    But the other Johto Gym Leaders have pretty well Developed Personalities,
    Even Shijima/Chuck who only had a single Episode.
    And Matsuba/Morty had several Episodes to help define his personality,
    though his Personality was well defined enough in his first episode.
    And I loved Akane/Whitney's total Directionally-challenged Air-headedness,
    although her battling personality left much to be desired.
    I did say that there were exceptions post-Kanto. Still, some of them don't have to be distinct characters, all of them can.

    And you can't seriously claim that any Unova Gym Leaders lack Personality.
    The Kanto Gym Leaders had nothing on the Unova Gym Leaders.
    Sadly, I don't remember much from the Sinnoh Region cause I missed that arc,
    though I do remember Sumomo/Maylene was absolutely adorable with her sudo-crush on Ash.
    Same with Hoenn, come to think of it. Missed most of that one too.
    I said most prevalent in Jouto and Houen. I got back into the anime just for Episode N. I dropped the DP anime shortly after the Natane episodes and haven't watched much of the Best Wishes episodes aside from Episode N.

    If there's an Isshu Gym Leader that's as memorable as the lovely Nastume, feel free to share that with me.

    But I did play the games but I can honestly say that, much like the other Gens,
    the Hoenn Gym Leaders in the game had absolutely no Personalities what-so-ever.

    Now, if you want to talk about Lazy writing, then we can discuss the Games.
    That's not true at all. Many of the in-game Gym Leaders have distinct personalities that sets them apart from the others. The player wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of going through the trials in Dragon's Den if Ibuki didn't have a distinct personality from the other Gym Leaders.

    The games may not have much in the story department, but the characters do have notable personalities. But it's up to mediums like the anime and manga to expand upon them. Pokemon Special does a decent job with this. The anime...not so much, though it does shine in some areas. The anime's Mewtwo has the most depth compared to its counterparts within all canons, but Mewtwo's not a Gym Leader.
    Last edited by FANG-TAN; 27th March 2013 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi View Post
    Another one: I didn't like Movie 8 all that much.
    I personally didn't like it either. I found Movie 7 was the best of the AG films (Destiny Deoxys) myself.

    The dubbed versions of Movie 8 and 9 are the same to me, though.

    8's plot and Pokemon focused on was pretty abysmal, but the dubbing was great, whereas
    9's plot and Pokemon focused on was pretty cool, but the dubbing was mediocre.

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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.

    Usually there's only like 2-3 bad or lackluster Gym battles a region and you can excuse it, but in Unova they were all just meh.
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.

    Usually there's only like 2-3 bad or lackluster Gym battles a region and you can excuse it, but in Unova they were all just meh.
    Gyms 4 and 8 made me cringe in Unova. I thought all the others were pretty good, though. 4 was more bearable for me than 8, though.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.

    Usually there's only like 2-3 bad or lackluster Gym battles a region and you can excuse it, but in Unova they were all just meh.
    I thought that the seventh Gym battle was really good. There was more strategy there than in most of the other Gym battles in Unova, Ash's choices in Pokemon made more sense and it was more engaging to watch. I agree that pretty much everything else ranged from meh to just plain bad. There were some that started out good like the second and fifth Gym battles, but then those led to cheap unbelievable/questionable victories too. I'm not sure if that's better than Kanto being full of mainly pity Gym badges, but it is frustrating and annoying. The fourth and eighth Gym battles were especially bad due to how they made Ash look so much worse than usual.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.
    I think that's still true without ignoring the Kanto pity badges.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.

    Usually there's only like 2-3 bad or lackluster Gym battles a region and you can excuse it, but in Unova they were all just meh.
    I thought that the seventh Gym battle was really good. There was more strategy there than in most of the other Gym battles in Unova, Ash's choices in Pokemon made more sense and it was more engaging to watch. I agree that pretty much everything else ranged from meh to just plain bad. There were some that started out good like the second and fifth Gym battles, but then those led to cheap unbelievable/questionable victories too. I'm not sure if that's better than Kanto being full of mainly pity Gym badges, but it is frustrating and annoying. The fourth and eighth Gym battles were especially bad due to how they made Ash look so much worse than usual.
    Completely agreed with you here. While I wasn't a big fan of DP, I feel it probably had the best gym battles and most innovative strategies and stuff to maneuver around the field. BW's been extremely underwhelming for me in that respect when compared to DP. I think the third gym battle with Burgh was pretty decent as well. The eight was my worst between itself and the fourth (I think a lot of people agree with both of us here those two were the worst). While Ash's...incredible...stupidity in the fourth battle in terms of grabbing his Snivy mid-way through the gym battle was frustrating, I feel the eighth gym battle with Roxie takes the cake. From Ash scanning a Koffing, a Pokemon he even battled against James of TRio with numerous times and even its evolution, to barely managing to win a 6 vs. 3 battle...worst one this saga, IMO. The seventh was pretty well excuted with Brycen, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring Kanto's pity badges, I think Unova had the worst overall Gym battles of all the regions.
    I think that's still true without ignoring the Kanto pity badges.
    Agreed. Considering Kanto was the start of the series, and Ash was a beginner at the time, it was understandable to me the writers took that route. I also do have some nostalgia for how he earned some of the badges honorably through good deeds as opposed to Gym Battles, though, like when Ash rescued Gloom from Erika's gym in Celadon City, though.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 28th March 2013 at 12:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonGoku View Post
    Completely agreed with you here. While I wasn't a big fan of DP, I feel it probably had the best gym battles and most innovative strategies and stuff to maneuver around the field. BW's been extremely underwhelming for me in that respect when compared to DP. I think the third gym battle with Burgh was pretty decent as well. The eight was my worst between itself and the fourth (I think a lot of people agree with both of us here those two were the worst). While Ash's...incredible...stupidity in the fourth battle in terms of grabbing his Snivy mid-way through the gym battle was frustrating, I feel the eighth gym battle with Roxie takes the cake. From Ash scanning a Koffing, a Pokemon he even battled against James of TRio with numerous times and even its evolution, to barely managing to win a 6 vs. 3 battle...worst one this saga, IMO. The seventh was pretty well excuted with Brycen, though.
    The third Gym battle started off okay, but once Sewaddle evolved and started the trend of BW Gym battles have cheap evolution victories, even though it didn't end up winning the battle for Ash like most of the other last minute evolutions did, it went downhill for me. The fourth and eighth battles are definitely the worst out of the bunch. Ash's plan to rely only on Palpitoad to the point where he apparently didn't bring any other Pokemon with him aside from it and Pikachu was incredibly bad. I don't have much of a problem with Ash scanning Koffing. He battled int frequently, but that was over a decade ago and it isn't uncommon for Ash to use his Pokedex on Pokemon he's met before. It's just so that kids in the audience who weren't around when those Pokemon first appeared can get a bit of information on them. The battle itself was the main problem when it made Roxie look like the stronger trainer, despite Ash winning the match, since it took all six Pokemon to take down her three Poison types and it just made it look like Ash wasn't really ready for the Unova League with that as his last badge.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SonGoku View Post
    Completely agreed with you here. While I wasn't a big fan of DP, I feel it probably had the best gym battles and most innovative strategies and stuff to maneuver around the field. BW's been extremely underwhelming for me in that respect when compared to DP. I think the third gym battle with Burgh was pretty decent as well. The eight was my worst between itself and the fourth (I think a lot of people agree with both of us here those two were the worst). While Ash's...incredible...stupidity in the fourth battle in terms of grabbing his Snivy mid-way through the gym battle was frustrating, I feel the eighth gym battle with Roxie takes the cake. From Ash scanning a Koffing, a Pokemon he even battled against James of TRio with numerous times and even its evolution, to barely managing to win a 6 vs. 3 battle...worst one this saga, IMO. The seventh was pretty well excuted with Brycen, though.
    The third Gym battle started off okay, but once Sewaddle evolved and started the trend of BW Gym battles have cheap evolution victories, even though it didn't end up winning the battle for Ash like most of the other last minute evolutions did, it went downhill for me. The fourth and eighth battles are definitely the worst out of the bunch. Ash's plan to rely only on Palpitoad to the point where he apparently didn't bring any other Pokemon with him aside from it and Pikachu was incredibly bad. I don't have much of a problem with Ash scanning Koffing. He battled int frequently, but that was over a decade ago and it isn't uncommon for Ash to use his Pokedex on Pokemon he's met before. It's just so that kids in the audience who weren't around when those Pokemon first appeared can get a bit of information on them. The battle itself was the main problem when it made Roxie look like the stronger trainer, despite Ash winning the match, since it took all six Pokemon to take down her three Poison types and it just made it look like Ash wasn't really ready for the Unova League with that as his last badge.
    Good points. I definitely understand where you're coming from on all of them. The 6 Pokemon just to take down 3 Pokemon was very depressing to watch. I honestly felt like that was a terrible way for him to end his final gym battle of the region (though the League was a disaster).

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    Bonded Forever Misty Calls Masquerain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyvernphlare View Post
    "Orange you glad I didn't say banana" is funnier than Georgia and Burgundy
    "Why did the chicken cross the road, to get to the other side" is also funnier.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Usually there's only like 2-3 bad or lackluster Gym battles a region and you can excuse it, but in Unova they were all just meh.
    How is that unpopular? Are you suggesting people actually thought Unova's Gym Badges were more valued than all the others?

    -Another unpopular opinion I have regarding the gyms. The rematch against Roark in DP had a significant drop in quality compared to the first match against him despite the imploring of the Spin move, Cranidos ate so many Iron Tails from Pikachu but Rampardos gets wrecked by Turtwig with barely any, pretty much zero since Swift is paper to Rock-types, damage? The first match had more drama, overall better animation, better music, and imo better struggle and unpredictability that made it feel so much more intense and alive. If anything I think I would have preferred Aipom facing off against Onix, Pikachu's Thunderbolt hurting Onix just reminded me how inconsistent the writers are with Electric attacks.

    -I thought Ash deserved to win the Unova League just as much he did the Sinnoh League.

    -Don't care about the moves taught off-screen in the Unova League, they probably wanted them to be a surprise like Heracross's Sleep Talk he got taught beforehand by Ash.

    -Buneary, Cyndaquil, and/or Pachirisu should have never been caught and Togekiss should have been caught earlier as those three went largely unnoticed in growth, new moves, or anything aside from being blatant ads for HGSS(It was especially obvious since Cyndaquil was made into a savant from the start in the Tag Battle and against Grotle.) and DP. Yes, Togekiss and Mamoswine's speedy evolution were ads for Platinum but at least they were more subtle about them, imo, and Piplup at least did more and battled more often. As was May's Bulbasaur and Squirtle for FireRed/LeafGreen.
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 28th March 2013 at 09:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post
    Read my post again. I've been saying "generic personality", not "no personality." Obviously they have personalities or else they'd be zombies. I'm bothered by the fact that many of the anime Gym Leaders are bland to the point where they might as well be the same character. If they couldn't think of a unique or memorable characterization, they could at least use the personality set forth by the games. If a Gym Leader *was* a loon in the games, there's no reason for him/her to be a Generic Anime Gym Leader™.
    I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
    Seams like we're looking for different things when it comes to personality.

    They're important characters from the game. If you're going to make them boring and as forgettable as a filler character, then that's a problem.

    Also, again, the anime has no excuse for this beyond lazy writing. All of those uninteresting filler episodes in Jouto, for example, could have been put aside to develop in-game characters.
    Personally, I never thought the games in-game characters had much personality, nor should they.
    They all often had less the 4-5 lines of text in the entire game, and most of that could of been
    cropped down to filter out the pointless and incoherent filler that plagues the game's writting.

    As for Johto, I've always felt that the Johto arc was meant to showcase new Pokemon, not people.

    I did say that there were exceptions post-Kanto. Still, some of them don't have to be distinct characters, all of them can.
    And I contend that all of them do.
    It's just that not every character needs to have well developed personalities when they are not that important to the story.
    And I don't believe that every gym leader should have some emergency that Ash has to swing into and save the day (or vice versa.)
    Expanding a character's role in the anime just because you think they need more personality is the definition of "Lazy Writing"
    but it's trying to force a character in where they just don't belong. And frankly, there's already too much of that already.

    I said most prevalent in Jouto and Houen. I got back into the anime just for Episode N. I dropped the DP anime shortly after the Natane episodes and haven't watched much of the Best Wishes episodes aside from Episode N.

    If there's an Isshu Gym Leader that's as memorable as the lovely Nastume, feel free to share that with me.
    Well, considering I've only played W2 and I really didn't care for the Gym Leaders in that game (more forcing the player to do dog tricks)
    and the fact I missed the beginning of the Unova arc and first 3 Gym Leaders, I'm not sure which you'll consider valid.

    But personally, I Love Iris, although Iris counting as a Gym leader is questionable since she's not one in the anime yet
    and we're only just seeing her being developed gradually as the arc progresses
    and Cilan's is just has moments of zaniness that adds 'flavor' to his character.
    I rather liked how they portrayed Yakon/Clay, who came off as contemptuous and harsh
    but watching him get beat down shows that he realizes that he was wrong to misjudge Ash.
    Huuro/Skyla probably has one of the most interesting Personalities in the anime
    and seeing her character development do a complete u-turn in a single episode was fantastic,
    though watching the English dub, I still get the feeling that something was lost in translation.
    And, of course, You have to Love Homika/Roxie, who had so much more personality then all of them combined.
    Brash, Excitable, Generous, Over-confident while showing Humility in defeat and best of all, just loves to Rock.

    That's not true at all. Many of the in-game Gym Leaders have distinct personalities that sets them apart from the others. The player wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of going through the trials in Dragon's Den if Ibuki didn't have a distinct personality from the other Gym Leaders.
    Frankly, if any of the Gym leaders in the games had any sort of Personality,
    we wouldn't of had to play all of their incessant mini-games
    or jump through their hoops in order to reach them in the first place.
    Ibuki/Clair's Dragon Den was the least we had to do for a badge
    and probably was the only legitimate challenge that added to the story.
    The Dragon's Den showed that Ibuki/Clair was the only one that had a personality
    outside of the stale and empty personalities of the other in-game Gym Leaders,
    who, after doing a little maze or doing a little dance for them and jumping through their hoops,
    they'll greet us/gloat about their skill before getting on with the battle,
    after which they congratulate us/whine about their loss and then we leave.

    The games may not have much in the story department, but the characters do have notable personalities.
    Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    EDIT:
    Come to think of it, I don't believe I can think of a more then two Gym Leaders from any arc
    that matches your original claim of being "mature, righteous, and overly friendly,"
    At least not to the point of rightfully labeling them a "Generic Anime Gym Leader™."
    And not more then one with-in any arc that did not have at least some kind of development,
    if be it an often-used cliche, though that's something I often see in Anime of every genre.

    At first, I suspected that you were only trying to hold the Personality Development
    of all Gym Leaders to a personal perceived standard, something I find quite shallow and frankly impossible.
    But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that you seam to have a single Gym Leader in mind
    that you seam to take issue with personality-wise and you appear to project that dislike across (at least) two sagas.
    I'll concede that a couple of the Gym Leaders (as with much of the Anime in general) could of used a little fleshing-out
    but I don't find any basis for your original assertion that too many of the Gym Leaders have generic Personalities.
    Last edited by TheCableGuy; 28th March 2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    メイの大切な彼氏 FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCableGuy View Post
    Personally, I never thought the games in-game characters had much personality, nor should they.
    They all often had less the 4-5 lines of text in the entire game, and most of that could of been
    cropped down to filter out the pointless and incoherent filler that plagues the game's writting.
    What? If you're talking about generic NPC trainers, then obviously they're not going to say anything useful (welcome to JRPGs).

    But the major characters have lines of dialogue that indicate that the way they carry themselves around other people is different from each other, at least moreso compared to the anime. If you want, I can post two lines of dialogue from two different characters from the games just to prove this.

    Again, the games serve as an outline. It's up to mediums like the anime and the various manga to expand on them, or make interesting interpretations.

    As for Johto, I've always felt that the Johto arc was meant to showcase new Pokemon, not people.
    And that's the problem with the writing. Advertisement over writing interesting characters.

    And I contend that all of them do.
    Minor differences that establish they are, indeed, different human beings at the very least =/= distinct, or having personalities that separates them from the rest. If the writers were to write dialogue they would have the characters say in reaction to, for instance, "What are Pokemon to you?", it should be glaringly obvious which character is saying which dialogue.

    For example, Game!Kikuko would say, "Pokemon are used for fighting, not for researching like that old fool Professor Orchid would probably say." Anime!Kikuko, inferring from what we've seen of her (which is what matters in the long run, what's on-screen is currently her anime canon personality, and I don't care about screen-time excuses), would say "they're our precious comrades." Another example, Game!Akane would say "they're cuddly and super-cute, I got into them because everyone else did." Anime!Akane would say "they're our precious friends."

    It's just that not every character needs to have well developed personalities when they are not that important to the story.
    The only overarching story the anime has ever given us is badge quests. If Gym Leaders aren't an important fixture to this, I don't know what is.

    And I don't believe that every gym leader should have some emergency that Ash has to swing into and save the day (or vice versa.)
    I never insinuated this.

    Expanding a character's role in the anime just because you think they need more personality is the definition of "Lazy Writing"
    wut

    Is character development not writing? Isn't putting more work into expanding a character the exact opposite of lazy writing? Sorry, but I unfortunately don't understand what you're trying to get at, because the only impression I get from reading that line of text was "putting more work into writing characters is lazy writing", which makes no sense.

    but it's trying to force a character in where they just don't belong. And frankly, there's already too much of that already.
    They're characters from the games, which the anime is based on. If they don't belong in a more significant, or (at the very least) memorable, role in the anime, who does? Shuu, who could have been Yuuki? Kazunari, who could have been Hibiki? If they're gonna focus on badge quests in the anime, they should at least make the Gym Leaders themselves entertaining to counteract the depressing fact that everything will culminate with Satoshi losing the league.

    I'm not asking for a whole "Episode N"-esque plot arc about one Gym Leader either. They could easily make a character memorable in the span of two or three episodes. Heck, some filler characters have more quirks that make them stand out compared to some of the Gym Leaders, and that's just sad.

    But personally, I Love Iris, although Iris counting as a Gym leader is questionable since she's not one in the anime yet
    and we're only just seeing her being developed gradually as the arc progresses
    and Cilan's is just has moments of zaniness that adds 'flavor' to his character.
    I rather liked how they portrayed Yakon/Clay, who came off as contemptuous and harsh
    but watching him get beat down shows that he realizes that he was wrong to misjudge Ash.
    Huuro/Skyla probably has one of the most interesting Personalities in the anime
    and seeing her character development do a complete u-turn in a single episode was fantastic,
    though watching the English dub, I still get the feeling that something was lost in translation.
    And, of course, You have to Love Homika/Roxie, who had so much more personality then all of them combined.
    Brash, Excitable, Generous, Over-confident while showing Humility in defeat and best of all, just loves to Rock.
    Ignoring Iris and Dent because they got promoted to main characters in the anime, if I take your word for it, that sounds pretty much like how the Kanto Gym Leaders were written. I can dig that.

    Homika in particular sounds like a good expansion of how she is in the games, and I'd like seeing them do more of that in the future.


    Frankly, if any of the Gym leaders in the games had any sort of Personality,
    we wouldn't of had to play all of their incessant mini-games
    or jump through their hoops in order to reach them in the first place.
    Ibuki/Clair's Dragon Den was the least we had to do for a badge
    and probably was the only legitimate challenge that added to the story.
    The Dragon's Den showed that Ibuki/Clair was the only one that had a personality
    outside of the stale and empty personalities of the other in-game Gym Leaders,
    who, after doing a little maze or doing a little dance for them and jumping through their hoops,
    they'll greet us/gloat about their skill before getting on with the battle,
    after which they congratulate us/whine about their loss and then we leave.
    Puzzles in a video game. Oh the horror.

    I can't see how rigging their gyms has any correlation to whether or not they have a personality. Care to elaborate more on that?

    The Dragon's Den showed that Ibuki/Clair was the only one that had a personality
    outside of the stale and empty personalities of the other in-game Gym Leaders
    "Stale" implies that too much of the same has become tiresome. However, the in-game Gym Leaders of Jouto had personalities that were distinct from the rest. Hayato aspires to follow in his dad's footsteps and become a master at Bird Pokemon, Tsukushi is an avid entomologist who aspires to find out all the mysteries about bug Pokemon, Akane is a ditzy and childish bishoujo, Matsuba is highly invested and influenced in Enju City's mythology (training all of his life, developing supposed seer-like powers, in hopes of encountering Ho-Oh), Mikan is meek and shy despite being a Gym Leader, Shijima is a muscle-head deadbeat husband, and Yanagi is a wise old man who regularly meditates under a waterfall (the anime's interpretation of Yanagi is an example of a Gym leader I liked in the anime).

    You're confusing staleness of gameplay (badge quests in the games) to "no personality." Much of the "story" in the games are mainly about expanding the background of the world and a coming-of-age story for the silent protagonist. The real plot is from the whole "evil organization" thing the games have going on, which are usually disconnected from the badge quest (besides RBGY, with Sakaki being the final Gym Leader). In the case of GSC/HGSS, the Rocket Gang revival plot.

    Come to think of it, I don't believe I can think of a more then two Gym Leaders from any arc
    that matches your original claim of being "mature, righteous, and overly friendly,"
    At least not to the point of rightfully labeling them a "Generic Anime Gym Leader™."
    And not more then one with-in any arc that did not have at least some kind of development,
    if be it an often-used cliche, though that's something I often see in Anime of every genre.

    At first, I suspected that you were only trying to hold the Personality Development
    of all Gym Leaders to a personal perceived standard, something I find quite shallow and frankly impossible.
    But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that you seam to have a single Gym Leader in mind
    that you seam to take issue with personality-wise and you appear to project that dislike across (at least) two sagas.
    I'll concede that a couple of the Gym Leaders (as with much of the Anime in general) could of used a little fleshing-out
    but I don't find any basis for your original assertion that too many of the Gym Leaders have generic Personalities.
    I'm not projecting dislike of one anime Gym Leader to the others, I'm addressing a problem that I believe exists in several characters that have appeared in the Pocket Monsters TV anime. Gym Leaders/Elite Four members that fall victim to the "I specialize in [insert type]/Perfectly Dignified/Yet Approachable" template? To name a few, Akane, Mastuba, Mikan, Ibuki, Tsutsuji (being a teacher, it fits, though), Nagi, and Kikuko. Not all of them ended up lacking memorability (Matsuba in particular, due to being connected to episodes that have Minaki and call forth Satoshi's connection to Legendary Pokemon), but the anime writers did ruin a perfectly good chance to make them more unique by actually using their depictions from the games as a reference.

    It shouldn't be that hard, too, since that's the easiest method the anime has available to write a better Gym Leader. I've seen depictions of Gym Leaders from a handful of different Pokemon canons, some a drastic departure and some not, and the anime is one of the most lackluster, in terms of the number of bland ones it has.
    Last edited by FANG-TAN; 29th March 2013 at 07:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post
    What? If you're talking about generic NPC trainers, then obviously they're not going to say anything useful (welcome to JRPGs).

    But the major characters have lines of dialogue that indicate that the way they carry themselves around other people is different from each other, at least moreso compared to the anime. If you want, I can post two lines of dialogue from two different characters from the games just to prove this.

    Again, the games serve as an outline. It's up to mediums like the anime and the various manga to expand on them, or make interesting interpretations.
    Again, you've fallen back to entirely subjective opinion where even the Gym leaders in the games
    (who are only vaguely more interesting then generic NPCs) have their whole personality summed up in a couple lines of text,
    not counting later games that give their whole life-story, whether you want to hear it or not.

    And that's the problem with the writing. Advertisement over writing interesting characters.
    Johto was a low point in the anime for various reasons,
    one of which I believe that it wasn't exactly planned and sort of rushed,
    Compounded by shoddy translation when it came to America.
    Despite that, I still say it's far better then you give it credit for.

    Minor differences that establish they are, indeed, different human beings at the very least =/= distinct, or having personalities that separates them from the rest. If the writers were to write dialogue they would have the characters say in reaction to, for instance, "What are Pokemon to you?", it should be glaringly obvious which character is saying which dialogue.

    For example, Game!Kikuko would say, "Pokemon are used for fighting, not for researching like that old fool Professor Orchid would probably say." Anime!Kikuko, inferring from what we've seen of her (which is what matters in the long run, what's on-screen is currently her anime canon personality, and I don't care about screen-time excuses), would say "they're our precious comrades." Another example, Game!Akane would say "they're cuddly and super-cute, I got into them because everyone else did." Anime!Akane would say "they're our precious friends."
    I get the distinct impression you've never actually played the Original Games of which you speak.
    Let me guess, you've started in the 3rd Gen and only played the Remakes?
    Yeah, then I suppose that would explain it.

    Anyway, I don't see your point. How is a single line summing up an empty Personality from the Game
    Better then a whole Episode detailing a character's personality, which is far better then the Game version?

    Granted, Kikuko/Agatha never expounded on her relation to Orchid/Oak's relationship and perhaps that was a missed opportunity
    But then again, the Anime wasn't about Orchid/Oak either and perhaps the Writers felt that the Interaction between Ash and Kikuko/Agatha was more important.

    And Akane/Whitney had so much more personality in the Anime then in the game
    where she actually talked about her life and her love for Pokemon.

    The only overarching story the anime has ever given us is badge quests. If Gym Leaders aren't an important fixture to this, I don't know what is.
    If badge quests were the intent of the Story then I fail to see the need to write up detailed backstories
    and daily episodes for the Gym Leaders any more then for the Random Trainers Ash meet along the way.
    In any Episode that was comprised of more then just the Gym Battle,
    the anime did a fine job of exploring that Gym Leader's Personality,
    even to the point of giving too much Info.
    Frankly, I could of gone without listening to Hachiku/Brycen's personal tribulations
    or Yakon/Clay's boasting about how he dug an entire mine at Ash's age
    (with only a nod to his Pokemon, who I suspect did the actual digging.)

    wut

    Is character development not writing? Isn't putting more work into expanding a character the exact opposite of lazy writing? Sorry, but I unfortunately don't understand what you're trying to get at, because the only impression I get from reading that line of text was "putting more work into writing characters is lazy writing", which makes no sense.
    No, you misunderstand. A Lazy writer (or perhaps I should of said an Amateurish Writer)
    tries to over-elaborate a description of a Character or a situation to make up for a lack of substance
    or because you just want to set the story by establishing your Characters at the expense of the plot.
    Not every character needs a Back-story beyond setting the scene of the moment.
    In all honestly, I could of done with a lot less "Character Development" in the anime of non-reoccurring characters.
    I also could of done with a lot more of established and stable Character Development in Reoccurring characters.

    They're characters from the games, which the anime is based on.
    No, they're names and faces that appeared in the games that the Anime is based on.
    There's a difference.
    They're as relevant to the Plot of the story as any other character that appeared in the game
    and they could of been rewritten and/or written out of the anime without so much as a thought
    and the Anime wouldn't of skipped a beat.

    Remember that there's a lot that the Anime has rewritten, even to the point of exclusion.
    That said, there's many, many different facets to the Story as well.
    The World of Pokemon is wide an varied but not every facet needs to be addressed all in one go.
    Just because the anime didn't show a side of a character that you wanted to see doesn't mean that it's absent from that character,
    only that you didn't get to see what You wanted to see.

    Puzzles in a video game. Oh the horror.

    I can't see how rigging their gyms has any correlation to whether or not they have a personality. Care to elaborate more on that?
    By your reasoning, they could of skipped the Puzzles and invested our time playing in getting to know the Gym Leaders.
    I wouldn't of minded if they had us go out and find the Gym Leaders instead of having the Gyms in the Center of town
    and have to pass some trials like the Dragon's Den INSTEAD of having us do puzzles that have nothing to do with Pokemon.

    I fail to see what these puzzles have to do with challenging their Gym,
    but it sure tells me that these Gym Leaders (or rather the game designers)
    have no substance in regards for an actual Story in which to make the player feel invested.

    One thing I have to admit of B&W2, a lot fewer mini-games and more Story-based Investment
    (although they still have us do way too many Dog-tricks.)

    "Stale" implies that too much of the same has become tiresome. However, the in-game Gym Leaders of Jouto had personalities that were distinct from the rest. Hayato aspires to follow in his dad's footsteps and become a master at Bird Pokemon, Tsukushi is an avid entomologist who aspires to find out all the mysteries about bug Pokemon, Akane is a ditzy and childish bishoujo, Matsuba is highly invested and influenced in Enju City's mythology (training all of his life, developing supposed seer-like powers, in hopes of encountering Ho-Oh), Mikan is meek and shy despite being a Gym Leader, Shijima is a muscle-head deadbeat husband, and Yanagi is a wise old man who regularly meditates under a waterfall (the anime's interpretation of Yanagi is an example of a Gym leader I liked in the anime).

    You're confusing staleness of gameplay (badge quests in the games) to "no personality." Much of the "story" in the games are mainly about expanding the background of the world and a coming-of-age story for the silent protagonist. The real plot is from the whole "evil organization" thing the games have going on, which are usually disconnected from the badge quest (besides RBGY, with Sakaki being the final Gym Leader). In the case of GSC/HGSS, the Rocket Gang revival plot.
    Oh no, I'm not confusing anything of the sort.
    The video games just do not convey any sort of personality in boring one-liners that,
    more often then not, distract from the story.
    Granted that the remakes do a lot to remedy this and expound much on the original characters
    but it still falls short of conveying any real emotion.

    I'm not projecting dislike of one anime Gym Leader to the others, I'm addressing a problem that I believe exists in several characters that have appeared in the Pocket Monsters TV anime. Gym Leaders/Elite Four members that fall victim to the "I specialize in [insert type]/Perfectly Dignified/Yet Approachable" template? To name a few, Akane, Mastuba, Mikan, Ibuki, Tsutsuji (being a teacher, it fits, though), Nagi, and Kikuko. Not all of them ended up lacking memorability (Matsuba in particular, due to being connected to episodes that have Minaki and call forth Satoshi's connection to Legendary Pokemon), but the anime writers did ruin a perfectly good chance to make them more unique by actually using their depictions from the games as a reference.

    It shouldn't be that hard, too, since that's the easiest method the anime has available to write a better Gym Leader. I've seen depictions of Gym Leaders from a handful of different Pokemon canons, some a drastic departure and some not, and the anime is one of the most lackluster, in terms of the number of bland ones it has.
    What I'm coming to realize is that you're not up-set about the Anime not expounding on Personalities,
    (which is does because it clearly matches about 90% that their in-game Personalities in accuracy, with the sole exception of Mikan,*
    who the Anime depicts as older and more mature then her Game counterpart.) Edit: Mikan, not Akane.
    but rather you're upset that the anime does not live up to your own preconceived image that you've built up around the Game-characters.
    When the Anime characters fall short of your expectations, you rail against them as if he anime writers are attacking your imagined way they should be.

    Come to think of it, if we were to extend this debate into non-Gym Leaders such as Champions/Elite Four/Frontier Brains,
    Wataru/Lance in the anime is probably the only character to fit your subjective "I specialize in [insert type]/Perfectly Dignified/Yet Approachable" template
    and that's because that IS his Personality.

    What you're complaining about is a Gym Leader ACTING like a Gym Leader.
    Professional, Respectful, Courteous, and Polite. You're forgetting that being a Gym Leader
    as well as being a position of Honor and Statute in Society, is first and foremost a Business!
    There's a certain expectation that is held for Gym Leaders to act and to maintain, whether be it Business or Public Office.
    But every Gym Leader has his or her own way of doing things and their Personalities come Shining through, despite their Position.
    The anime has done a (mostly) decent job of expressing each Gym Leader's personality in appropriate degree.

    If you're not happy with it and think you can do better, write Fan Fiction.
    It's easier to criticize others' work then it is to create something of your own.
    Last edited by TheCableGuy; 29th March 2013 at 09:11 PM.

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