There is difference between having innovative, out of box thinking and clear stupidity. In beginning Ash had no idea about type advantages, pokemon strategies, basics at training and how league and several things work being clearly Brock and Misty merit for everything he learned in that field serving as guidance to establish groundwork, starting point from which he can continue to go forward and improve as trainer.
Originally Posted by Chiplet
Ash maybe had his own style, but his impulsive and reckless approach brought more harm than good until his friends guided him in right direction, creating bedrock which served as "stepping stone" for genuine growth and exploration of his own methods.
Sorry but i cant even take this statement seriously . Right after Brock, Misty was companion which left biggest mark on his progression as trainer. She did not only helped him about strategies, pointed out his mistakes and criticized him for reckless and impulsive approach, which often cost him matches losing because of disobedience. But she also actually pushed him to train, influenced direction in which battle will went with her critics and motivation speech, served as inspiration invoking annoyance in Ash character wanting to prove her wrong which led to pass of several challenges; such as Ultimate test, right to battle Danny, to start using other pokemon more not relying only on select few like Charizard etc.
''without a doubt'' in your opinion. I hardly see that. As the matter of fact, I'd almost say that she influenced him the least. Ash has always battled in his own ways, and might have listened occasionally to his friends' words, but always went out battling by himself, surprising them in a positive manner rather than obeying them.
She also often reminded him of important things he tend to forget, such as where to subscribe to enter pokemon league, ask for directions where and when to enter competition, corrected him when making false assumptions often acting like older sister which made sure to get him out of trouble. There were many times when he naively trusted Team Rocket, fall for obvious tricks(bad disguises, baskets of fruits in middle of road etc) with Misty holding him back from falling right into trap. She saved his life on multiple occasions guiding group out of danger, such as out of St. Anne ship, when they got lost in forest with no way out, when he lost consciousness in sea preventing him from drowning etc.
How exactly that makes her involvement holding bigger value than Misty or Brock left on him?
What about the spin? If anything, that helped Ash win his first gym battles in Sinnoh, and just that is pretty much more than Brock and Misty ever did, considering that he actually developed it later to his completely own move, the Counter Shield.
Because as far as i can tell here are some things i can count from top of my head: Brock prepared strategy for Ash in Vermillion gym helping him to win badge, he had private talks before Kanto league helping him to pass element stadiums, Misty solved Blaine puzzles giving him right to challenge him to a match, gave him motivation to pass gym leaders like Blaine, Cissy or Claire, directly influenced outcome of battle against Rudy with Ash thanks to her help winning badge, helped him to come up with strategy against Macy, or Gary in Johto league etc.
Dawn didn't prepared strategies, taught him about tactics and how to improve his skills, played role in his pokemon learning new attacks, pointed out his flaws and how to fix them etc with any new combination Ash tried being something he decided by himself to copy and try implementing in his own style.
So no, Dawn definitely didn't contributed more to Ash success as trainer than Misty and Brock did.
Right here your contradicting yourself. First you say how Brock and Misty "barely had any influence on Ash, and now Brock suddenly played big role". In regards to that Brock helped Ash more about strategies and battling tips, but Misty served role of motivator which pushed him forward.
Oh, true. Brock did influence him a whole lot, that's very true. Misty, however... nah. She did at times, but Brock did influence him the most at that regard.
When he got carried away becoming full of himself, she was voice of reason which brought him down to earth preventing him from humiliation and disaster, with time becoming less impulsive, gullible and rash trainer which was reflected on his Johto performance.
She was catalyst which pushed him forward questioning his skills with impulsive reaction from his side allowing that he tries harder and betters himself as trainer, she forced him to train when he got lazy(namely in Kanto), and often baited him out of dangerous situations giving him lot of moral support and encouragement .
Which is definitely important role.
I don't recall i ever said or implied such thing, but some of your statements are raising up question if you remember well enough OS.
In other words, what you're telling me is that I didn't watch the OS? Please, those poor arguments of yours won't get you anywhere. Ash DID develop as a character, but mostly by his own effort, as he often took initiative and developed by going hiw own way.
Let see, when Ash got nervous about battling Jeanette or Mandi in league Brock and Misty gave him boost to overcome challenge. When he doubted in himself after loss at Kanto league it was Misty who raised up his spirit. Same applies to losing situation against Rudy, preventing him from losing which led to Squirtle learning new move and turning things in his favor. When he got defeated against Gary, it was Misty and Brock which stood by his side giving him encouragement and push to go forward. Same applies to loss against Whitney, at grass tournament in Johto and several other challenges where he was in losing position.
However, with Iris and Dento, Ash actually got the boost to continue battling, which confronted him directly as he was nearly giving up due to a seemingly bad situation, without really beliving in himself or in his Pokémon. A character can always develop by making mistakes, definitely, but if the biggest mistake one can ever do is doubting himself and his own abilities, as that's the driving force to their strength.
However unlike Iris and Cilan, Brock and Misty directly influenced flow of battle forcing Ash to change strategy, served as prelude which led to his pokemon learning new moves, came up with tactics which allowed him to surpass opponents against who he would've lost otherwise etc.
And until BW Ash consistently grew as trainer not going backwards in development, until semi reboot of new games happened. So that argument is invalid.
Why would he do wrong if Misty and Brock have taught him so much? Why would he get carried away if that's something he has done previously, and thus learned by his mistakes?
We saw that with Misty and Brock in majority of battles he was in, providing him support and moral boost with their cheering.
Ash's second battle against Trip. His battle against Elesa. His battle with Snivy. It wouldn't take long until the both of them started to believe in his actions though, which was based on just following your heart and going with what feels right, ignoring type-advantages.
We aren't debating who cheered for Ash the most, but who helped him to develop as trainer learning to apply more strategy into his battles, start working more with your own pokemon and get know the most with tactics and pokemon battles.
And those were Misty and Brock without any doubt, since when starting out Ash knew the least needing help and support from others the most.
And why they had to interrupt? Because Misty ignited in Ash revolt and reaction, stopping to ignore everyone around and just pity himself in corner over loss like its end of the world. Therefore its Misty merit for going out of depression state.
And he didn't come to his senses until THEY came in and interrupted.
And from what I've seen, it also affects him the most as a Trainer, and confronts him the most as a Trainer too. So yeah.
Your missing the point in here. No one in here is disputing that Ash innovative way of battling and unorthodox strategies are his trademark and what suits him most.
Of course not. As I said, ''supporting pillars''. Ash could also have followed Misty's advice and use her Pokémon to win, but what would he have accomplished by doing so? He refused, and decided to go and win using his own Pokémon, in other words he did what he himself felt was right.
But im talking about ignorance, and stupidity in early days which often resulted in lost of match for him because of wanting to do things his own way, not listening to voice of reason. Such as using reckless approach against lt. Surge, Sabrina or Blaine which cost him winning battles. Not training his Charizard resulting in loss at Kanto league, becoming too confident in himself not showing willingness to train and work hard with pokemon until Misty and Brock intervened. Took for granted several strong trainers like Lorelei, Whitney or Gary losing easily because of becoming full of himself not listening to anyone advice.
Misty and Brock were ones which guided him to right track starting to use in smarter way his pokemon, used more of strategy in his battles and stopped underestimating his opponents while mixing his own style into battles. Which was reflected on his Johto performance.
No, but he wouldn't achieve nearly as much as he did during Kanto, OI or JOhto performance if it wasn't for support and help from his friends. Technically he wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for their help saving him from dangerous situations.
You're makin it sound like he would've been a ''nobody'' without them. That's not true, for various reasons that I've already mentioned.
Difference is that in DP Ash was already experienced trainer, having pre knowledge and skills to go on bigger things not needing constructive criticism and questioning from Dawn side. Ash from Kanto, Orange and to extent Johto was a whole another story often making cardinal mistakes which led to easy defeats, didn't established his own battling style yet, thought he knows better than anyone around him with such hot blooded approach often bringing him in trouble.
Wait, what? Are you actually trying to pull out a negative side from having confidence in your friend? Dawn had confidence in him for good reason, because through their journey they had trained together a whole lot, probably more than he did with any other, and she knew perfectly well what he was capable of doing, thus had good reasons to believe in him as a Trainer, as she always had been there, training with him and going through hardships alongside him. Misty should've done that to, have more confidence in him, and then maybe she would've seen that he wasn't so incapable of battling like she thought he was.
If it wasn't for Misty criticism, question of his battle strategy and arguing he wouldn't be able to realize his flaws, learn to be less impulsive and collected in battles , start to work more with his pokemon focusing on creating balanced and strong team rather than relying only on select few. Like he often used to do with Charizard, Pikachu or Bulbasaur back in day.
Its same like with coaching of baseball, basktball, soccer etc teams. If you always give them compliments, not criticizing bad moves or reckless plays guiding them to realize what they did wrong it shuts down from start any chance to improve as players, learn on mistakes and use more effective strategy.
Misty criticism and underestimation of skills was needed to ignite in Ash revolt training as result of that harder, to realize mistakes he did which leaded toward defeat , to not to be so gullible not falling so easily in obvious traps from TR side and learn how to become more mature and skilled as trainer over time.
Fine by me, but i still disagree with majority of your points for various already stated reasons.
I'm done. Let's agree to disagree, shall we?
I know that you'll post one more time, but I won't read it, since I've finally gotten out all I wanted to say, and therefore only will ignore this. :)
Besides, it's clearly getting off-topic.
For record i didn't started this debate either.
Im not sure what was bad about original trio reunion in Johto? Drop in quality of writing wasn't caused by Ash, Misty, Brock existence but because of writers themselves and lack of direction in which they wanted to take show forward. No matter what cast was there, result would be the same.
Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
People find original trio more important because it is group which started everything, setting up path for future generations. Because they were first piloting pokemon in achieving global popularity, ending as most iconic and recognizable cast of all time and because it was intended to keep them permanently in anime initially. Hence explaining longer run compared to other groups.
Also I don't like how people think the original trio is more important than any of the other groups. It was only ever used for about 50 more episodes than the others which in the anime means nothing. The writers never had any intention of reuniting the original trio and we all knew this back in 2004.
In majority of TV shows first cast is viewed as most important, because if it wasn't for them there wouldn't exist show in first place.
I respectively disagree. Misty was unique to many because she had wide range of emotions and sides to her personality, which often confronted each other having captivating ability to interact great with just about any character having one of most believable growths character went through in this show in persona sense, without losing its appeal.
Originally Posted by Cilan
She was unique in sense of growing up without parents in sisters shadow, having sad and easy to relate for many story of having to work hard for everything she accomplished, being symbol of hard work and determination. She was outspoken, brave and loyal often going out of her way to help others about their problems, save people lives, save towns or villages from destruction(referring to Porta Vista city)and often bring her friends and others out of danger having caring and big heart for others, but also not letting anyone to mess up with her serving as good role model to many fans.
She was also only one type trainer in cast , developing over time unique goal of striving to become strongest water trainer in world which is something many admired her for.
As for original trio, i dunno. I watched them in Japanese version too and i still find they had closest bond as friends with no one being left out, with friendship with time growing coming to understand each other better feeling like family.
It wouldn't evolve for same reason why Pikachu, Piplup and Axew didn't. Mascot status of second generation was getting in way of that.
2. If Ash kept Togepi then it would have actually did more and possibly evolved in Johto.