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  1. #61
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    I hope to god this is a sign we're getting a Champion league and Elite 4 arc.

    If the writers truly want to cater the show to the fanbase and give us what we're dying to see, it will happen.

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by ObjectionMan
    Except, again, the writers don't have that much to do with what's being criticized here. At all.

    D/P pulled out BLATANT ADVERTISING and mindless pandering out the wazoo for it's last two years. Where were the complaints then?

    So for you, trying out new things and experimenting is bad and they should stick with what they did in DP, which was keeping a worn-out formula going and doing every predictable thing imaginable. Basically, you hate change. Got it.

    And plot and characterization? Again I ask, what "plot" in D/P differated in from the "plot" in BW, which is the same for the most part (Ash travels around a region collecting badges to enter the League which he is doomed to fail in). And characterization? Are you frigging kidding me!? Please tell me which characters in D/P, if any, were three-dimensional and dynamic characters who changed by the end of the series? Because I can't come up with a single one.
    • Generally, I find that "writers" is used as a catch-all term to refer to the big wigs in the show's staff. That includes the marketers. Or maybe it's just me?
    But whatever, I'll concede this one to you.

    • DP had advertising and pandering to be sure, but at least then there was sometimes a sense of subtlety to what the writers did. There was a greater sense of continuity because they actually bothered to tie loose ends, which made DP feel like it had a stronger story even though that wasn't necessarily the case. One exception: that whole HGSS period with the Johto Festa and the notched-ear Pichu BS? That was blatant as fuck.

    • It's not a matter of "it sucks because they changed it", but rather "they changed it and did a crap job". Trying to retrace Kanto's steps does not work if it means returning to the fluctuating quality of writing back then. It was passable then, but at this point we know the writers can do better.

    • By the by, I never said the plot/characterization of DP was great. All I said is that it's more focused, again because of that sense of continuity the series had. Things were introduced, and seen through to the end. That's all.
    BW feels haphazard, and if that's what a "reset" kind of scenario is going to end up as, might as well go back to what worked before.

    Remember Trip? The guy who was setup from the very beginning of BW to be Ash's next big rival? The guy who was always one step ahead and got a whole arc trying to establish him as a major threat for the League? He got shafted hard in favor of Cameron, the undeveloped newcomer. Not Bianca, who seemed to be getting a lot better. Not Stephan, who was competent enough. CAMERON. What the hell happened?
    [avatar: pixiv]

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by ObjectionMan View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    I highly doubt everything about this season was planned in advance (Ash's badge case originally having a slot for the Legend Badge, but then suddenly having that slot fit the Toxic Badge is evidence of that).
    Of course not. Everything about EVERY season isn't fully planned in advance. Remember how Wallace was planned for AG but then got dropped in favor of Juan? However, plans that are made are almost always made a year in advance, so saying things like "a Plasma arc was planned but got dropped due to the 3/11 disaster" is inaccurate since everything that followed in 2011 was already fully planned out by the time of the disaster, with the stuff from early 2012 currently in the planning stages, and Team Rocket being the main villains there pretty much show that it's more likely than not that there were no plans for Team Plasma's return for the rest of the Badge quest.
    May I see some evidence that states that things are planned one year in advance? Otherwise, you can stop stating things like that as fact.

    Oh yeah, because I totally remember Charizard coming back into the show when it came to dealing with Dawn's Mamoswine and Iris' Excadrill. I'm not saying the decision to bring Charizard back is ratings, but it sure as hell isn't Dragonite.
    Mamoswine and Excadrill were disobedient Pokemon. That's it. Dragonite, on the other hand, is an orange flying reptile who has a gruff personality and loves to fight powerful opponents. That's not just a similarity, that's almost an exact description of Charizard.
    I'm guessing the reason why Charizard was brought back is the same reason why Mewtwo is most likely in the Genesect movie - nostalgia. Moving into a 3D world with XY is a big step up for Pokémon as the games have always used sprites, so it's like the end of an era and as the anime exists to sell the games, bringing Gen I back into it seems natural.
    Also, Dragonite is brown and Charizard is red. Just saying...

    Like Team Plasma stamping down on Team Rocket's plans because Unova is their stomping ground or something and kicking off a new storyline there?
    The Nimbasa Subway and Milos Island arcs were planned before the two-parter got postponed. Neither had Team Plasma showing up to stamp down on Team Rocket's plans. That right there is evidence that no, Team Rocket vs. Team Plasma wasn't going to become an arc.
    Again, can I have some proof that the Nimbasa Subway and Milos arcs were planned before the two parter-was postponed? You can't say anything is fact without backing it up.

    It would be very odd for Team Plasma to have been introduced but then completely ignored for 89 episodes.
    Team Galactic first appeared in DP's 36th episode, but were only formally introduced 33 episodes later, and the full team and their plan only came into the picture 27 episodes after that. It also took about 50 episodes for Hunter J to return to the anime after the Riolu two-parter. The anime has had a history of ignoring villains who aren't Team Rocket, and even they appear alot less frequently now.
    And yet Team Plasma's would have been more than double any of the time gaps between Galactic's appearances and just less than double J's.

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    Registered User WatcherMark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    The thing is, all of Best Wishes has been just one mis-step after another. Shooty, serious Team Rocket, Adeku being characterized as an easily bored skirt chaser, Satoshi's character being reset, Kotetsu... not a single one of these have taken. Iris is disliked, the gang's Pokemon don't even have half the development that the Pokemon from DP did... even Dent seems to be fading into the background. All of these seem to be to stop the kids from turning off... in fact, I've pretty much lost all interest in the anime at this point and basically just check the pictures on Filb rather than actually watch the episode.

    Yeah, these stunts seem desperate but to be honest it's either that or lose a huge chunk of the audience to boredom.

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I hope to god this is a sign we're getting a Champion league and Elite 4 arc.

    If the writers truly want to cater the show to the fanbase and give us what we're dying to see, it will happen.
    I still don't really see how something like that could be pulled off well at all in BW given the problems with Ash's skills and how battles have generally been really bad. Plus, I'm not sure how many people in the fanbase really care about seeing a Champion League and Elite 4 arc. Compared to something like bringing back older characters/Pokemon, that doesn't seem to come up that often and it really wouldn't make any sense with the way Ash has been handled in this series, so I don't think that's going to happen.

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I hope to god this is a sign we're getting a Champion league and Elite 4 arc.

    If the writers truly want to cater the show to the fanbase and give us what we're dying to see, it will happen.
    Except the writers aren't catering to the show's "fanbase," thinking the writers are writing this show with the intentions and expectations of us is a sketchy notion. This isn't Sword Art Online we're talking about, this is Pokemon Anime, a show meant and written with the thoughts of children in mind. I don't even think the "Fandom" is on the writer's radar given I'm sure we make up less than 10% of the overall Pokemon fanbase. Even then most of us don't watch the show on TV nor buy the non-game merchandise, I mean all that stuff they sell in Pokemon Centers in Japan. Also we aren't Japanese, BW is doing perfectly fine in ratings in both America and Japan. I don't know where the points of the writers "realizing they've screwed up and are going into shock" is even coming from aside from people's idealistic thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I find it interesting to note that they had the Japanese VA of Brock voice Marlon the Gym leader. Only Japanese fans would notice it, but I guess giving Brock's VA a role on the show even though Brock himself didn't show up was a nice gesture.

    Also anyone notice how Paul has never been mentioned in BW, even when Cynthia was around? Dawn didn't mention her rivals either, so it's as if the writers have purposely buried all DP characters other than them and Looker.
    Yes and Paul's Japanese VA voices Trip's Servine. Before that James and Jessie's voiced Snivy and Trip's Snivy. Does it really matter? VAs do that in this show all the time it's really nothing new. Even in the English Dub Misty's VA voiced Maylene, they voice these characters because they can. If you want to talk about pandering to a certain fanbase, Notch-Eared Pichu was probably created solely to use Shoko-tan. Why? Because kids would recognize said popular Japanese idol as being the host of PokeSmash.



    No, I see no "gimmicks." I see advertising, yes, but no gimmicks that we haven't seen in any other part of this show various times. As far as the last two ending themes being done by girl groups, I don't see a problem with that. If anyone remembers the there was a Meleotta short released in a girl anime magazine and marketed there, there was also a contest held in a girl magazine for "Pokemon's Hottest Guys." Girly ends and advertisement does not a gimmick make. As said before Shoko Nakagawa sung a very girl ending theme in DP.(Get Fired Up, Notch-Eared Pichu!!) and the writers even made the Pokemon itself girly and pointed it out in lyrics of the show with a cast of very marketed Pokemon from DP, Croagunk, Pikachu, Chimchar, Piplup, etc.

    Brock and Misty get flashbacks and references, Dawn returns, Cynthia returns. Butterfree flashback, May returns, Jasmine returns, Dawn and Ash have a small spat over the "Misty Lure" received in AG that goes no where, and that's just off the top of my head. What's the difference? Like someone else said, Cynthia very much appears in Undella Town and had some past interactions with Caitlin.

    Charizard being brought back doesn't seem anymore random than him being brought back in AG. In fact a lot of people guessed Charizard would return in Episode N given all the Charizard merchandise that was released beforehand and the fact people thought he would be likely to return with the Genesect fiasco and the whole sense of grandeur around the arc. Also Iris's ornery Dragonite. Again, most people guessed Mewtwo was going to return since its origin and Genesect's modifications are very similar in the sense they were brought about by the crime syndicates of their regions.

    This honestly just seems like another topic spawned for people to grocery list complaints about BW.
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 28th February 2013 at 10:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Well, episodes are planned out a few months in advance.

    Anyways, I think after the 2011 earthquake, the plans the staff had collapsed, and the staff maybe didn't know what to do after the episodes and the TVTokyo or ShoPro executives had a feeling that ratings and views would drop, thus rating stunts happened.

    The show did not jump the shark, but hopefully things go back to normal during Pokémon X and Y.
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Hopefully after the N arc ends and Plasma is gone they can bring back Giovanni for some kind of final story arc before BW ends.

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    Le Noob The One and Only RA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I hope to god this is a sign we're getting a Champion league and Elite 4 arc.

    If the writers truly want to cater the show to the fanbase and give us what we're dying to see, it will happen.
    I still don't really see how something like that could be pulled off well at all in BW given the problems with Ash's skills and how battles have generally been really bad. Plus, I'm not sure how many people in the fanbase really care about seeing a Champion League and Elite 4 arc. Compared to something like bringing back older characters/Pokemon, that doesn't seem to come up that often and it really wouldn't make any sense with the way Ash has been handled in this series, so I don't think that's going to happen.
    The Champion League/E4 arc probably isn't suggested often because most of the fans shudder to think about the writers mutilating the logical conclusion to Ash's story.
    I can almost imagine Ash one step away from winning the League - and his Pikachu falls to a resisted Gust from a Pokemon the writers want to promote.

    As @Dogasu pointed out, BW has used far too many gimmicks recently. It does feel slightly desperate but at least we are not being treated to a "object gets stuck in body - Pokemon goes on rampage until removal by a wise guy" storyline every week.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    I agree with this, all these popular Kanto things returning really does feel like Pokemon is trying to bring back the ratings, lets face it the BW league was a big mess and thats when I think the ratings hit rock bottom. The writers seemed like they saw the light and is slowly trying to fix things. Look at poor Trip, guy who was supposed to be Ash's main rival seemed more like one of those random add in rivals who came every now and than and gets defeated blah blah blah, lets not forget Virgil who I don't even know why was added in, he didn't even get to fight Ash, what the heck was that? Than, to top it all off they get some guy who forgot to bring 6 Pokemon in a 6 V.S 6 Pokemon battle, still let him fight and beat Ash?? They broke a lot of league rules with that one and made Ash look weak against a guy who looked like he had an IQ of a rock.

    Why did they feel they needed to rush the league? The new series isn't supposed to be out for a while right? I know episode N along with the Team Plasma arc is supposed to be long but they still have a while till the next series, none of it made sense in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    The writers really have no choice at this point. They've dug themselves in a huge hole by flying through the Gyms so fast. They literally have nothing for Ash and them to do anymore. They know if they do the league this early, it will end too quickly and they won't have anything else to do until X and Y in 7+ months. The only thing they can really do is all of these fan-service things now, it's kind of like they're saying "I know nothing's happening, and we have no real plot to continue at the moment, but look Charizard, Misty, and Brock! You like those character's right?!?! Distract yourselves while we try to figure out what to do next!"

    It's getting rather saddening. Before, they stretched it too long, now they did it too quick. Pacing is a major issue with this anime. Nowadays, it seems like they're only continuing the anime for marketing and promotional purposes, with plot and everything else on the back burner.

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Desperate or not its no secret how return of popular pokemon like Charizard or references or even returns of mega popular characters like Dawn, Misty or Brock is going to hype things up a lot and adduct attention from older fans toward this show increasing ratings, possibly even sales if people favorites return got excited them enough to get hooked on pokemon again as well bring something unexpected to new viewers keeping them lift up.

    Which helps increase anime reputation, popularity and credibility through positive reception..

    Some could say how all of this is just despondent move from writers part to already dying pokemon popularity which with each next generation sinks even lower(lowest score having BW saga), but it could also be first step toward recovery.
    Since such gestures only provides more references and flashbacks to past strengthening continuity of pokemon series, adding new spice to anime in form of unpredictable, fresh twists which are necessary to maintain people interest getting anime out of predictable rut it dug itself into. It only makes sense to keep characters which were important part of pokemon history contributing to Ash growth as trainer relevant, receiving some recognition. Otherwise whats the point of introducing them in first place if any development they got, potential to offer more and contribution they served to push anime forward is going to be erased?

    Which serves as stepping stone toward better written anime gain eventually keeping its connections to past and amount of growth Ash and others accumulated until now, rather than dropping everything pretending like history didn't happen. Provides to pokemon more identity and opens gateway toward more cohesive and better compact story and most importantly consistent development of characters.

    Something which reference to original traveling friends or return of his classic reserves like Charizard allows considering how events which happened in past give us acquaint on amount of growth prior to reaching point on which characters and story are standing right now adding for more credible play of things in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I hope to god this is a sign we're getting a Champion league and Elite 4 arc.

    If the writers truly want to cater the show to the fanbase and give us what we're dying to see, it will happen.
    Add to that reunion of original trio and than you truly fulfilled fans demand. :D

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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by The One and Only RA View Post
    The Champion League/E4 arc probably isn't suggested often because most of the fans shudder to think about the writers mutilating the logical conclusion to Ash's story.
    I can almost imagine Ash one step away from winning the League - and his Pikachu falls to a resisted Gust from a Pokemon the writers want to promote.
    That could be a reason why more fans aren't really into the idea and given how they've presented Elite 4 members and the Champions, I don't think that they could pull off Ash defeating them in a believable fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaster97
    The writers really have no choice at this point. They've dug themselves in a huge hole by flying through the Gyms so fast. They literally have nothing for Ash and them to do anymore. They know if they do the league this early, it will end too quickly and they won't have anything else to do until X and Y in 7+ months. The only thing they can really do is all of these fan-service things now, it's kind of like they're saying "I know nothing's happening, and we have no real plot to continue at the moment, but look Charizard, Misty, and Brock! You like those character's right?!?! Distract yourselves while we try to figure out what to do next!"

    It's getting rather saddening. Before, they stretched it too long, now they did it too quick. Pacing is a major issue with this anime. Nowadays, it seems like they're only continuing the anime for marketing and promotional purposes, with plot and everything else on the back burner.
    I agree that going through the Gyms this quickly really hurt the series. Throwing in more episodes in between the Gym battles, as either filler or training, might have been a better choice than rushing through them in retrospect, especially when most of Ash's Pokemon could have used the training anyway and it could have led to better Gym battles. That way, Episode N could have served as the last arc for BW and they wouldn't be stuck without anything based off of the games to work with for the next few months after that arc ends. To be fair about why they continue the series, I think that the marketing and promotional purposes have always come first and everything else, including the plot, is secondary. That's the reason why the anime was made in the first place. Although, the way they've promoted the changes in BW have come off as trying to appeal to fans as means to getting ratings while they try to figure out what to do next.
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    ロケット団よ永遠 Dogasu's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by ObjectionMan
    why are you fantasizing that the writers think their work is as bad as you and other fans here think it is?
    I'm not. But I also don't think the writers are narcissistic enough to believe that everything they write is gold. Writers make mistakes, and sometimes they're able to admit as much. Listen to the commentaries of just about any TV series out there; it's not uncommon for the writers to say things like "yeah, we didn't really wrap that up the way we wanted" or "we kind of wrote ourselves into a corner there, didn't we?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott
    May I see some evidence that states that things are planned one year in advance?
    We know that the actual production takes about six months, based on the following:

    • Common sense. Twenty-two minute animated shows don't just pop up overnight.
    • Hidaka Masamitsu stated that it takes them six months to make an episode of the TV series in the interview PokeBeach did with him a few years ago ("How far in advance do you make the episodes and movies? He stated 6 months for the episodes, 1 1.5 months for the voice acting, and 1 year for the movies (which we already knew). He also said in the previous interview that it takes him one week to make a storyboard per each episode, which I forgot to mention.")
    • The dates on the production artwork that sunyshore has been able to acquire backs this up ("I aquired these sketches in late September 2010 -- a good and full five months before the episode even aired.")


    Using basic math, we can look at six months after the March 11th disasters and deduce that the episodes that aired on September 15th - the Battle Subway two-parter - were having work started by the time the decision was made to skip the Plasma two-parter.

    (That's part of why the Rocket-Dan's "final battle" was so annoying; production on Episode N would have started before the Season 2 Kami Trio two parter was being promoted, meaning that the marketing department knew they were full of shit when they started promoting those episodes as the group's finale)

    Pre-production, on the other hand, would be taking place even before that. The staff of the TV series has to plan for tie-in promotional events way, way in advance in order for everything to get done on time. I'm guessing that's where ObjectionMan got the "one year" thing from.
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    Default Re: Do all these gimmicky stunts that Best Wishes! keeps pulling seem desperate to yo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogasu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott
    May I see some evidence that states that things are planned one year in advance?
    We know that the actual production takes about six months, based on the following:

    • Common sense. Twenty-two minute animated shows don't just pop up overnight.
    • Hidaka Masamitsu stated that it takes them six months to make an episode of the TV series in the interview PokeBeach did with him a few years ago ("How far in advance do you make the episodes and movies? He stated 6 months for the episodes, 1 1.5 months for the voice acting, and 1 year for the movies (which we already knew). He also said in the previous interview that it takes him one week to make a storyboard per each episode, which I forgot to mention.")
    • The dates on the production artwork that sunyshore has been able to acquire backs this up ("I aquired these sketches in late September 2010 -- a good and full five months before the episode even aired.")


    Using basic math, we can look at six months after the March 11th disasters and deduce that the episodes that aired on September 15th - the Battle Subway two-parter - were having work started by the time the decision was made to skip the Plasma two-parter.

    (That's part of why the Rocket-Dan's "final battle" was so annoying; production on Episode N would have started before the Season 2 Kami Trio two parter was being promoted, meaning that the marketing department knew they were full of shit when they started promoting those episodes as the group's finale)

    Pre-production, on the other hand, would be taking place even before that. The staff of the TV series has to plan for tie-in promotional events way, way in advance in order for everything to get done on time. I'm guessing that's where ObjectionMan got the "one year" thing from.
    Fair enough, thanks for the info. So we have 6 months of actual production and an unspecified time of pre-production (so anything beyond 6 months is just an estimate)?

    However, it's worth noting that we have a 24 episode gap between the appearances of Team Plasma and the Subway two-parter. If we look at the average time gap between villainous team debuts and their next appearances:
    Team Magma: 25 episodes
    Team Aqua was a little weirder, first appearing in AG017, with regular appearances in AG018, AG027 and then none at all until AG083. Hoenn did have two villainous teams to deal with though.
    Team Galactic: 24 episodes

    24 episodes following Team Plasma's originally scheduled first appearance was the Subway 2-parter. 27 episodes after that was the Twist Mountain 2-parter, 20 episodes after that was the Undersea Temple 2-parter and 21 episodes after that we have the episode N finale. So we roughly have an over-hyped event every 5 months or so. The only big event that doesn't fit into this was the Milos Island 2-parter, which was 11 episodes after the Subway 2-parter and 15 episodes before the Twist Mountain 2-parter.

    What I find interesting though is, if we look at the main goal in each of these events, only one doesn't fit perfectly - the Subway 2-parter is the only one that isn't about obtaining some kind of new energy or power. In the Meteonite plot, Team Rocket wanted the energy of the Meteonite, in the Milos Island 2-parter they wanted the power of the Kami trio, in Twist Mountain they need Tirtouga's life energy so they could obtain the power of the Ancient World (which actually fits in with the Undersea temple 2-parter). In the Subway 2-parter, they just wanted to steal Pokémon. Obviously, stealing Pokémon is what Team Rocket have tried to do since day one and the Subway 2-parter wasn't their first time raiding a Pokémon Centre, but when you consider what they had been doing in Best Wishes other than that, it doesn't fit does it? However, in the Black/White games, one of the main things the Team Plasma grunts did was steal Pokémon to "liberate" them and one of the most memorable encounters with them (well, N) was in Nimbasa City.

    When the TR v TP 2 parter was cancelled, it was six months before the Battle Subway 2-parter aired, so it's possible that the episodes had only just entered production at the time and following the timeline of the villain team reappearances, could have been intended as a Team Plasma return until the TR v TP cancellation. However, the earlier work on the episodes might have already started (without anything too major having been at that stage) so they couldn't just scrap them, so they were reworked to be about Team Rocket (as they were a suitable replacement). That could also explain why the Milos Island 2-parter is the only one that doesn't fit into the rough-five month time frame: Because that could have been in the early planning anyway as a Team Rocket event with the possible intention of both the Team Plasma and Team Rocket storylines being active at the same time, however, following the cancellation of those two episodes, it was decided to make Team Rocket the centre focus of the usual villain team plot.

    Obviously everything is all just a guess as we'll most likely never know what really went on, but it doesn't really sound that far-fetched.

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