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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Yes but they said she was top coordinator from Sinnoh, and it was stated both in Hoenn and DP how winning Grand Festival makes you top coordinator as Hidden Mew already pointed out with Solidad, Zoey etc being described as such.
    That's not my point. Naturally, Johanna is a Top Coordinator from Sinnoh, but I sincerely doubt that she'll be able to achieve a higher rank by competing in other regions' Grand Festival and winning those. You can always try to get stronger by training and travelling, learning more about other Pokémon and new ways of training etc., but I don't think that you'll be able to achieve a higher ranking by competing in other Grand Festivals.

    About entering other regions and trying to win other Grand Festivals, im pretty sure that's more challenging and harder task to accomplish than winning just one GF from specific region. Its already hard enough to collect all ribbons and win one GF, let alone trying to win them in each region requiring great deal of skill and experience. Which with itself pulls higher reputation and recognition in world of coordinators.
    Obviously, entering more Grand Festivals and winning them will surely prove to be a rather difficult quest, but winning one should be enough to estabish you to a really impressive Coordinator. You'll already have what it takes to win Contests, and you already know the basics and the advanced strategies, so winning a Contest should be a piece of pie to you, considering that the most Coordinators that you'll face will be far from your league. It won't be the same challenge as the first time you entered, and after that you've won two Grand Festivals you'll probably be near to being undefeatable, and it'll almost be a bit unfair to the other Coordinators.

    I doesn't make much sense to me, no matter what way you put it. Travelling around in order to improve makes perfect sense, but I don't think you'll improve much if you beat Coordinators who you are being far surperior to in comparsion.

    No, it's not the same thing with Pokémon Leagues. After you win a Pokémon League, you enter the Champion League, and even if you were to win it, you'd still be forced to improve and improve in order to keep your title as the Champion, meaning that the Trainers you'll face will often be near your level of skill. You'll always get to face Trainers near your level.

    Solidad obviously has higher motivations than being top coordinator of only Hoenn, and if there doesn't exist way to advance yourself and rank up after you win on Grand Festival i doubt she would ever went to Johto.
    Wallace pretty much showed how there exists more to it being only contest master so far, and he is probably strongest coordinator currently in world.
    To me it was obvious that she wanted to improve as a Trainer and a Coordinator, but it was never obvious that she wanted to achieve a higher ranking as a Coordinator.

    Also, that thing regarding Wallace, what do you mean? Do you mean that they should try to become a Champion, or what?
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    That's not my point. Naturally, Johanna is a Top Coordinator from Sinnoh, but I sincerely doubt that she'll be able to achieve a higher rank by competing in other regions' Grand Festival and winning those. You can always try to get stronger by training and travelling, learning more about other Pokémon and new ways of training etc., but I don't think that you'll be able to achieve a higher ranking by competing in other Grand Festivals.
    It was already showed with Wallace how there exists higher rank being contest master. If you win Grand Festival of Sinnoh, Hoenn, Johto etc you become top coordinator of that region, but that doesn't make you top coordinator in world which is probably one of reasons why Solidad continued to enter contests to advance further.

    Obviously, entering more Grand Festivals and winning them will surely prove to be a rather difficult quest, but winning one should be enough to estabish you to a really impressive Coordinator. You'll already have what it takes to win Contests, and you already know the basics and the advanced strategies, so winning a Contest should be a piece of pie to you, considering that the most Coordinators that you'll face will be far from your league. It won't be the same challenge as the first time you entered, and after that you've won two Grand Festivals you'll probably be near to being undefeatable, and it'll almost be a bit unfair to the other Coordinators.

    I doesn't make much sense to me, no matter what way you put it. Travelling around in order to improve makes perfect sense, but I don't think you'll improve much if you beat Coordinators who you are being far surperior to in comparsion.
    Its not that simple. As you continue to travel and enter contests from other regions, there is no guarantee you will have same success there like you did before. When you travel worldwide and meet all kind of coordinators from all parts of globe there will be encountered all kind of competitors, different contest style people over there use, there exist prodigies, or those with hidden talent being more skilled than you are despite not winning Grand Festival yet etc.

    Dawn for example almost won GF in Sinnoh, but that doesn't mean she will have same success in other regions meeting different style coordinators use in Hoenn with one of reasons behind even traveling to Unova being to study more and improve her skills realizing how she still had a lot to learn not being prepared for different strategies.
    Same applies to Solidad or Zoey not being guaranteed they will have same success in other regions, if they ended up with more challenging and different competition.

    If you win GF in your hometown region it means you proved yourself as coordinator there making you best currently in that region, but if your aiming for top position in world it will surely be required to travel to other regions.

    Its like with sport. If your playing soccer, basketball, doing swimming etc if you or team win Europe, America etc championship they will prove themselves as currently best there, but to prove yourself in world you will have to qualify for world championship or Olympics which is most prestige and biggest event for every sportsman.

    And who is to say there doesn't exist special competition where only top coordinators from every region can participate to determine who is best out of them?

    No, it's not the same thing with Pokémon Leagues. After you win a Pokémon League, you enter the Champion League, and even if you were to win it, you'd still be forced to improve and improve in order to keep your title as the Champion, meaning that the Trainers you'll face will often be near your level of skill. You'll always get to face Trainers near your level.
    I meant how winning more than one league in several regions, is more prestigious and higher achievement for trainer than its to win one regional tournament. Since winning only in Kanto, Unova, Sinnoh etc wont make you best in world obviously.

    Also, that thing regarding Wallace, what do you mean? Do you mean that they should try to become a Champion, or what?
    Im not talking about his champion title, but fact that Wallace is referred as contest master too which is higher position than being top coordinator. He is currently strongest coordinator in world organizing prestigious contest events which carry his name , being example himself how there exists highest rank someone can reach as coordinator.

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    It was already showed with Wallace how there exists higher rank being contest master. If you win Grand Festival of Sinnoh, Hoenn, Johto etc you become top coordinator of that region, but that doesn't make you top coordinator in world which is probably one of reasons why Solidad continued to enter contests to advance further.
    If that's the case, then I'd say that either Dawn or May would have that as a their goal. Becoming a ''Contest Master'', that is. But they never even mentioned that, because all they aimed for was becoming a Top Coordinator. Thus, I myself believe that it's pretty much the exact same thing. If there was a higher ranking than Top Coordinator, either May or Dawn probably would've mentioned about reaching that goal.

    Its not that simple. As you continue to travel and enter contests from other regions, there is no guarantee you will have same success there like you did before. When you travel worldwide and meet all kind of coordinators from all parts of globe there will be encountered all kind of competitors, different contest style people over there use, there exist prodigies, or those with hidden talent being more skilled than you are despite not winning Grand Festival yet etc.
    Regardless, you still won the Grand Festival. A competition that determines the strongest Coordinator in the whole region (or, at least the year's strongest). After that you've won two, the rest should becoming ridicously easy. Even though it's possible to lose, the Coordinator you lost to will just like be stronger than a Top Coordinator.

    Dawn for example almost won GF in Sinnoh, but that doesn't mean she will have same success in other regions meeting different style coordinators use in Hoenn with one of reasons behind even traveling to Unova being to study more and improve her skills realizing how she still had a lot to learn not being prepared for different strategies.
    Same applies to Solidad or Zoey not being guaranteed they will have same success in other regions, if they ended up with more challenging and different competition.
    Why not?

    With every Trainer you fight, you encounter new unique and remarkable strategies and tactics, but despite that she still managed to come through. Naturally, it is obvious that she possibly wouldn't have made it to the finales in some other Grand Festival, but if she would've ended up on placing like ''Top 32'', they'd pretty establish that the Sinnoh Grand Festival is nothig compared to others. That doesn't seem very likely to me, as I personally think that it's about the same level of difficulty in each region. There are always a certain few remarkable individuals, but other than them I'd say that there isn't a very big difference.

    If you win GF in your hometown region it means you proved yourself as coordinator there making you best currently in that region, but if your aiming for top position in world it will surely be required to travel to other regions.
    That hasn't been mentioned in the Animé, so I don't think so.

    Its like with sport. If your playing soccer, basketball, doing swimming etc if you or team win Europe, America etc championship they will prove themselves as currently best there, but to prove yourself in world you will have to qualify for world championship or Olympics which is most prestige and biggest event for every sportsman.
    As I said. Your theory would've made sense if it actually had been mentioned in the Animé itself that there is a higher ranking than being a Top Coordinator, but being a ''Contest Master'' seems to be the exact same thing. Or else, why wouldnt Dawn, at least, have aimed for that goal? She, if anyone, would surely have aimed for that kind of goal if it actually existed.

    And who is to say there doesn't exist special competition where only top coordinators from every region can participate to determine who is best out of them?
    The Animé itself pretty much says that.

    I meant how winning more than one league in several regions, is more prestigious and higher achievement for trainer than its to win one regional tournament. Since winning only in Kanto, Unova, Sinnoh etc wont make you best in world obviously.
    That's what we have the Champion League for. The goal of becoming a ''Pokémon Master'' is just as unclear, but at least a Trainer would have the Champion League to focus on after winning a league.

    Im not talking about his champion title, but fact that Wallace is referred as contest master too which is higher position than being top coordinator. He is currently strongest coordinator in world organizing prestigious contest events which carry his name , being example himself how there exists highest rank someone can reach as coordinator.
    No, I don't think that's it. I think it's more because of Wallace also being the Hoenn Champion, as well as a previous Gym Leader. He's a Top Coordinator too. There is surely no other who carries all of those titles, thus the reason to why he gained so much attention. If not, don't you think, which I already pointed out, that we would've gotten more shots of him carrying other Ribbon Cups?
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    If that's the case, then I'd say that either Dawn or May would have that as a their goal. Becoming a ''Contest Master'', that is. But they never even mentioned that, because all they aimed for was becoming a Top Coordinator. Thus, I myself believe that it's pretty much the exact same thing. If there was a higher ranking than Top Coordinator, either May or Dawn probably would've mentioned about reaching that goal.
    I don't think there ever existed reason to mention it, if their aim was only to win Grand Festival becoming top coordinators. Not everyone are aiming for same goals. To some its enough to win one GF ending their journey as coordinator right there, while to some like Solidad it isn't. To some trainers its enough to win one regional league, while some has higher ambitions wanting to become champion, master etc.

    I don't think contest master is same thing as top coordinator at all, with such thing never being said or implied in show. Just like there exist something as pokemon master, water master or dragon master Misty and Iris are aiming for its not so farfetched to presume how there exist higher position you can achieve as coordinator too.

    And this careers are barely explained too.

    It took us 10 years to find out in DP how there exists champion league after you win league tournament, with writers not having reason to mention or bring up something if it doesn't go in correlation with main character goals.

    Since Wallace was only coordinator which achieve mastery over this and they never met him afterwards , with this term not having anything to do with May or Dawn goal its rather understandable why this wasn't mention again.

    However it doesn't change fact how this term was mentioned showing how there exists coordinators which are in whole another league than winners of GF are.

    Regardless, you still won the Grand Festival. A competition that determines the strongest Coordinator in the whole region (or, at least the year's strongest). After that you've won two, the rest should becoming ridicously easy. Even though it's possible to lose, the Coordinator you lost to will just like be stronger than a Top Coordinator.
    Explained below.

    Why not?

    With every Trainer you fight, you encounter new unique and remarkable strategies and tactics, but despite that she still managed to come through. Naturally, it is obvious that she possibly wouldn't have made it to the finales in some other Grand Festival, but if she would've ended up on placing like ''Top 32'', they'd pretty establish that the Sinnoh Grand Festival is nothig compared to others. That doesn't seem very likely to me, as I personally think that it's about the same level of difficulty in each region. There are always a certain few remarkable individuals, but other than them I'd say that there isn't a very big difference.
    Because in every region where contests are held, coordinators have different battling style in general using different approach, with incomers which achieved notable results in previous region not being guaranteed how they will be prepared for different strategies people over there use.

    We can see that with May contest journey with battling rounds in contests being more similar to regular trainer battles than battling rounds in Sinnoh were. There was more raw and straightforward approach there,appeal rounds were largely different and coordinators which got used to one battling style in specific region might likely have problems in adjusting to different strategy there not being prepared for it.

    As you travel to other regions you get to learn about different approaches toward contests having to enrich yourself with new skills with learning never stopping if you plan to continue being successful.
    After you win one Grand Festival while you proved yourself to be strong, winning second one in different region won't be easy for you at all because you will have to adjust yourself to different battling styles coordinators use, different rules etc.

    Dawn almost won GF in Sinnoh ending as runner up, but does that mean she will always come among top 2, 4 or 8? Not really, with her inexperience with different approach coordinators over there use being more likely than not one of main reasons why she went to Unova seeking out for different answers, observing musicals and battling style trainers over there use to apply it in her future performances.

    When May came back in Wallace cup, she mentioned she was struggling lately too having losing streak, regardless of all those evolutions and improvement.

    I don't think Grand Festival from every region will necessarily have same level of difficulty either, depending on how strong competition there will be. For example Sinnoh league showed to have harder competition than Hoenn league had , with Tobias himself already being tougher opponent than any other Ash met in other league tournaments.


    That hasn't been mentioned in the Animé, so I don't think so.
    Its more common sense to me, than anything else. If you want to become recognized as strongest coordinator in whole world and become best you wont be able to do that by staying in region and winning one GF. As you travel to other regions, other people and coordinators will find out about you making name for yourself everywhere basing on how successful you are there, and the more GF you win more famous, skilled and strong you will be applying all kind of strategies and knowledge you gather from Hoenn, Johto, Sinnoh, Kanto etc.

    As I said. Your theory would've made sense if it actually had been mentioned in the Animé itself that there is a higher ranking than being a Top Coordinator, but being a ''Contest Master'' seems to be the exact same thing. Or else, why wouldnt Dawn, at least, have aimed for that goal? She, if anyone, would surely have aimed for that kind of goal if it actually existed.
    Im not sure why would Dawn aim for that goal at all? Her desire was to prove herself to Johanna, following mother footsteps and wanting to win GF becoming top coordinator.
    There is no reason to mention something if it doesn't have anything to do with character story.

    If contest master means same thing as top coordinator, than why we never heard Johanna, Solidad or Zoey being labelled as masters? They were always referred as top coordinators which won one Grand Festival from their respective region.

    It wasn't until Wallace showed up, that this term was used being one way ticket to let people know how there exist coordinators which are on higher level than Grand Festival winners are.

    The Animé itself pretty much says that.
    Since it was pretty much established with Wallace how he is stronger than any top coordinator which got introduced in anime was, leads me to believe how there exists way to determine such thing.

    That's what we have the Champion League for. The goal of becoming a ''Pokémon Master'' is just as unclear, but at least a Trainer would have the Champion League to focus on after winning a league.
    And this still wont mean your strongest trainer out there, having to prove yourself worldwide to be recognized as such.
    As we can see even E4 members or champions travel worldwide and battle other opponents.
    Im pretty sure those who won Kanto, Sinnoh, Johto etc tournament continued to head toward other regions to compete in.

    No, I don't think that's it. I think it's more because of Wallace also being the Hoenn Champion, as well as a previous Gym Leader. He's a Top Coordinator too. There is surely no other who carries all of those titles, thus the reason to why he gained so much attention. If not, don't you think, which I already pointed out, that we would've gotten more shots of him carrying other Ribbon Cups?
    If he is top coordinator too, than he would surely be referred as such. But he wasn't being labelled as contest master and basically legend in world of coordinators, established as strongest coordinator who is in whole another league than likes of Solidd, Zoey or Johanna are having higher level of skill and knowledge.

    He is also only coordinator which established special contest events carrying his name with ribbons from it being legit in every region your participating in, serving as ticket to qualify for GF.
    And it was showed how Wallace Cup exists in other regions beside Sinnoh too, as we can see with Dawn which plans to compete in another one from Johto after she departs.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 31st August 2012 at 03:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    I don't think there ever existed reason to mention it, if their aim was only to win Grand Festival becoming top coordinators. Not everyone are aiming for same goals. To some its enough to win one GF ending their journey as coordinator right there, while to some like Solidad it isn't. To some trainers its enough to win one regional league, while some has higher ambitions wanting to become champion, master etc.
    That's like saying that there wasn't a reason to mention the concept of becoming a ''Pokémon Master''. We should just have Ash winning the Champion League and becoming a Champion, shouldn't that be good enough? For a main character, like Dawn, achieving the highst rank possible regarding the Coordinator goal would make perfect sense, since that's clearly something she loves and is 100 % dedicated to. For her to ''end'' after becoming a Top Coordinator while there actually is a higher rank to achieve seems really OOC to me considering her ambition and love for contests. So no, I'm not going to buy that.

    I don't think contest master is same thing as top coordinator at all, with such thing never being said or implied in show. Just like there exist something as pokemon master, water master or dragon master Misty and Iris are aiming for its not so farfetched to presume how there exist higher position you can achieve as coordinator too.
    If it wasn't for the fact that the term ''Contest Master'' had only been mentioned once with Wallace, I might would've believed what you were saying. But now, I don't. I can certainly see some Coordinators ending their carieers after that they've won the Grand Festival, quiting right there, but Dawn, Johanna and May all feel like truly ambitious Coordinators that would've wanted to reach to the top. If there truly was something like ''Contest Master'', it should at least have been mentioned once among them.

    It took us 10 years to find out in DP how there exists champion league after you win league tournament, with writers not having reason to mention or bring up something if it doesn't go in correlation with main character goals.
    The thing is, during those years, the only thing that were in the writers mind was the Pokémon League. They didn't even think about the Champion League at that time, nor did they know how Ash should be able to achieve that ranking. However, we all still knew that there had to be something more after the Pokémon League, as Ash still wouldn't get to battle the E4 nor the Champion even though he'd win it. Here, we really don't know nothing at all. For all we know, and what I personally believe, the top is reached once you've become a Top Coordinator. You can always train and try to get stronger and better at your goal, but I don't think you would've been able to achieve a higher ranking. If so, then you'd think that after Zoey won the GF she would said something in the lines of continue training in order to enter other Contests.

    Since Wallace was only coordinator which achieve mastery over this and they never met him afterwards , with this term not having anything to do with May or Dawn goal its rather understandable why this wasn't mention again.
    I don't agree, and the reason to that is explained above.

    However it doesn't change fact how this term was mentioned showing how there exists coordinators which are in whole another league than winners of GF are.
    I'll repeat myself; this term was mentioned once with Wallace. And with didn't get any further details about what it meant to be a Contest Master, but considering that we only got one shot of him holding the Ribbon Cup, why should we assume that he won more Grand Festivals? Can you answer to that question?

    Because in every region where contests are held, coordinators have different battling style in general using different approach, with incomers which achieved notable results in previous region not being guaranteed how they will be prepared for different strategies people over there use.
    It's still the same thing. Regardless of region, it's not like everyone in Sinnoh have the same battle style. Every Coordinator you face, regardless of region, will have different and unique battle styles, but it's still just the same as the Coordinators you beat before you got into the Grand Festival. There might be a certain individual that is a somewhat of a prodigy, but even for them it should be hard to beat a Top Coordinator, who has way more experience in his/her bag and has went through so much more than the new Coordinator.

    We can see that with May contest journey with battling rounds in contests being more similar to regular trainer battles than battling rounds in Sinnoh were. There was more raw and straightforward approach there,appeal rounds were largely different and coordinators which got used to one battling style in specific region might likely have problems in adjusting to different strategy there not being prepared for it.
    That was just the writers experimenting with how Contests should be funccioning in general, not to mention the difference in animation too. I'm not going to buy that. After all, in AG they were still completely new to the concept of Contests, and we could see how it developed from only being mere ''throwing disk and make your Pokémon catch it'' into a sparkly performance. From AG to DP, they went through the same development. It's not like the writers purposely made the Coordinators in AG being more ''battlecentric'' than the ones in DP.

    As you travel to other regions you get to learn about different approaches toward contests having to enrich yourself with new skills with learning never stopping if you plan to continue being successful.
    After you win one Grand Festival while you proved yourself to be strong, winning second one in different region won't be easy for you at all because you will have to adjust yourself to different battling styles coordinators use, different rules etc.
    You mean, just like you did in every Contest in the previous region? Yeah. I think that should be a habit by now.

    Dawn almost won GF in Sinnoh ending as runner up, but does that mean she will always come among top 2, 4 or 8? Not really, with her inexperience with different approach coordinators over there use being more likely than not one of main reasons why she went to Unova seeking out for different answers, observing musicals and battling style trainers over there use to apply it in her future performances.
    Ash has always managed to do that, so why shouldn't she? Of course, it can always happen that she gets to face other Coordinators that've also ended up at second, third or fourth place, which might make it a bit more difficult. But I certainly can't see her being in a lower place than among the Top 8. Besides, I think she mainly came to Unova for learning new tricks for Round 1, which always has been her weakness, but even if she didn't come to Unova I still don't think she'd have much problem in the contests in Hoenn, considering how extremely little influence Unova has had on her by the looks of things.

    When May came back in Wallace cup, she mentioned she was struggling lately too having losing streak, regardless of all those evolutions and improvement.
    To Harley and Drew, yes. They are both two strong Coordinators who always has been pretty much equal to May, so having her struggle with them is only natural, as they all were on the same level to begin with.

    Besides, that reminds me! Wouldn't she have mentioned Soledad too if she actually was competing in the Johto Contests? She didn't do that. Doesn't that say anything to you?

    I don't think Grand Festival from every region will necessarily have same level of difficulty either, depending on how strong competition there will be. For example Sinnoh league showed to have harder competition than Hoenn league had , with Tobias himself already being tougher opponent than any other Ash met in other league tournaments.
    Haha. Tobias had legendaries. Besides, as I said, the will always be a certain few individuals that are on a completely different level from you. However, it's not like Ash had won a League before that.

    Its more common sense to me, than anything else. If you want to become recognized as strongest coordinator in whole world and become best you wont be able to do that by staying in region and winning one GF. As you travel to other regions, other people and coordinators will find out about you making name for yourself everywhere basing on how successful you are there, and the more GF you win more famous, skilled and strong you will be applying all kind of strategies and knowledge you gather from Hoenn, Johto, Sinnoh, Kanto etc.
    The question is, can it really be further extended to being someting like ''The Greatest Coordinator in the World''? If you win all the Grand Festivals in every region, you still might encounter other Coordinators who've done the same thing, and you still won't be the best in the world. A Top Coordinator who trains at home, without traveling to other regions, could still probably beat a ''Master Coordinator'' if he/she had fought the same level of competetion in other Grand Festivals, but I doubt that he would've had a much bigger challenge than he had in his own region's GF. Forcing a Coordinator to win that many Grand Festivals seems highly unlikely to me, as it will take like one year per region, and even when he's done he still won't be the very best. What will he have achieved? The same kind of victory as he had in his last Grand Festival? How great.

    Im not sure why would Dawn aim for that goal at all? Her desire was to prove herself to Johanna, following mother footsteps and wanting to win GF becoming top coordinator. There is no reason to mention something if it doesn't have anything to do with character story.
    I thought her story was about becoming the very best? Y'know, the best, the almighty, the numero uno. Sure, she might want to make her mom proud as well, but I doubt she's doing all of this for the sake of her mother. She LOVES contests, why wouldn't it make sense to you for her to want to achieve an even higher ranking when she's truly dedicated to contests? It does to me.

    If contest master means same thing as top coordinator, than why we never heard Johanna, Solidad or Zoey being labelled as masters? They were always referred as top [coordinators which won one Grand Festival from their respective region.
    Exactly. You just said it. If there actually was something like Contest Master, they should would've mentioned wanting to become one after they had won Grand Festival, right? I think it's nothing more than a more fancy term to make Wallace seem more surperior than he already is.

    Since it was pretty much established with Wallace how he is stronger than any top coordinator which got introduced in anime was, leads me to believe how there exists way to determine such thing.
    It wasn't established.

    And this still wont mean your strongest trainer out there, having to prove yourself worldwide to be recognized as such.
    As we can see even E4 members or champions travel worldwide and battle other opponents.
    Im pretty sure those who won Kanto, Sinnoh, Johto etc tournament continued to head toward other regions to compete in.
    Just like winning every Grand Festival in other regions won't prove anything. What if there are others who have achieved the same thing? Then you will just be one of very few, right? Is the Contest Champion League too? Nah.

    Naturally, you always want to become stronger, thus you travel around to develop your skills, just like I said. But once you've become Champion in your region, I personally believe there's something like a Championship World Cup, where the strongest out of all Champions will be determined. That'd make sense.

    If he is top coordinator too, than he would surely be referred as such. But he wasn't being labelled as contest master and basically legend in world of coordinators, established as strongest coordinator who is in whole another league than likes of Solidd, Zoey or Johanna are having higher level of skill and knowledge.
    No, if he was referred to a Top Coordinator, he'd be the same as Johanna and Soledad, and even Zoey. And even if I think he is exactly that, with an exception of surely being way more powerful due to being Hoenn Champion too, the writers surely wanted to glorify him way more due to all of his famous titles. If there was something like Contest Master, then it should've been explained at least briefly at one point.

    He is also only coordinator which established special contest events carrying his name with ribbons from it being legit in every region your participating in, serving as ticket to qualify for GF.
    And it was showed how Wallace Cup exists in other regions beside Sinnoh too, as we can see with Dawn which plans to compete in another one from Johto after she departs.
    Wallace IS a special Coordinator. Because, unlike other Top Coordinators, he's also the strongest Trainer in his region. He has been a Gym Leader once, and is now also a Champion. That is the exact reason to why he gains so much attention. If there was something like Contest Master, then surely Wallace could not be the only one out there. Then other Contest Masters should've had the same type of competition in their honor, right?

    I'm ending this here, as this only feels like a huge waste of time by now. You haven't managed to convince me in the slightest that there is something higher than Top Coordinator, thus I'm quitting here. We will obviously not convince the other, so let's agree to disagree, shall we?

    I'm not answering more regardless. This is getting way off-topic, and as I just mentioned, it feels rather useless considering that we both are repeating ourseleves and don't seem to getting nowhere. But, if you feel compelled to answer, then be my guest, although just don't expect me to read it nor give a reply to it.
    ''A single thread in a tapestry though its color brightly shine, can never see its purpose, in the pattern of the grand design.''

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Back on topic, I believe May could have possibly won the Johto GF as she has vastly improved from her first appearance in contests. Though I'm guessing Soledad participated too, and judging by the fact that it hasn't been said how long she's been in contests for, it's possible she already had all her ribbons for Johto and probably Kanto which would explain why May doesn't mention battling her and why she didn't appear pre-GF. With Soledad being shown to be on a higher level than the others, I'm guessing May isn't quite ready to beat her, though I could be wrong as there are other coordinators to consider

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    No Drew was in it right so she lost

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    That's like saying that there wasn't a reason to mention the concept of becoming a ''Pokémon Master''. We should just have Ash winning the Champion League and becoming a Champion, shouldn't that be good enough? For a main character, like Dawn, achieving the highst rank possible regarding the Coordinator goal would make perfect sense, since that's clearly something she loves and is 100 % dedicated to. For her to ''end'' after becoming a Top Coordinator while there actually is a higher rank to achieve seems really OOC to me considering her ambition and love for contests. So no, I'm not going to buy that.
    Except becoming pokemon master was always Ash dream from very start, being justified to explore on that concept considering how its main plot which keeps his story and journey going. There is no need not to mention it, considering how its established as part of Ash character.

    With Dawn it was established from start how her goal was to become top coordinator following Johanna footsteps, wanting to get out of mother shadow and prove herself to others. There was no need to explore on something else, if its not going in correlation with character goals and aspirations.It doesn't go against character either, never mentioning how she wants to be "best"either and contests were something she wasn't always 100% fixated on too. Considering how she showed interests in other careers too, such as becoming pokemon stylist.

    If it wasn't for the fact that the term ''Contest Master'' had only been mentioned once with Wallace, I might would've believed what you were saying. But now, I don't. I can certainly see some Coordinators ending their carieers after that they've won the Grand Festival, quiting right there, but Dawn, Johanna and May all feel like truly ambitious Coordinators that would've wanted to reach to the top. If there truly was something like ''Contest Master'', it should at least have been mentioned once among them.
    We never saw pokemon master, water pokemon master, etc in this show either but that doesn't mean such thing doesn't exist. Your point?
    Dawn, Johanna and May wanted to become top coordinators and that's about it. Why to bring up this term, if it never had anything to do with their story?

    Even if we are going to work under assumption "until i see, i wont believe", unlike its case with pokemon master we can say we saw contest master in person if Wallace was something to go by.

    The thing is, during those years, the only thing that were in the writers mind was the Pokémon League. They didn't even think about the Champion League at that time, nor did they know how Ash should be able to achieve that ranking. However, we all still knew that there had to be something more after the Pokémon League, as Ash still wouldn't get to battle the E4 nor the Champion even though he'd win it. Here, we really don't know nothing at all. For all we know, and what I personally believe, the top is reached once you've become a Top Coordinator. You can always train and try to get stronger and better at your goal, but I don't think you would've been able to achieve a higher ranking. If so, then you'd think that after Zoey won the GF she would said something in the lines of continue training in order to enter other Contests.
    And what does Ash case tell us? How writers wont expand on something or explain it, if its not important to series and character storyline or in this case wont bring it up unless character is developed enough to go on next step.

    Just because we don't know much about something, doesn't mean how that doesn't exist with Wallace case implying how there exists higher level you can reach as coordinator.

    Last two sentences doesn't make much sense to me either, because if you continue training and nurturing your skills you will surely be at higher level than those which stop training causing their skills to become rusty over time.
    Not to mention if winning one Grand Festival basically brings you at top, than why Solidad continue traveling to Johto to compete in other contests?
    Like i said winning GF of one region makes you top coordinator there and among most skilled ones in world, but definitely not best coordinator in world with there being likely required to achieve more to be referred as such.
    Which makes sense imo.

    I'll repeat myself; this term was mentioned once with Wallace. And with didn't get any further details about what it meant to be a Contest Master, but considering that we only got one shot of him holding the Ribbon Cup, why should we assume that he won more Grand Festivals? Can you answer to that question?
    Im not sure why should we get more details? Wallace was one time thing presented as contest master, to put emphasis on his position and to show how there exist stronger coordinators than Grand festival winners. Thats all there was to it, with this never being intended to play important role in show.

    We don't need to know how he became contest master if such terms exists, because it was never important for May or Dawn story to begin with.

    It's still the same thing. Regardless of region, it's not like everyone in Sinnoh have the same battle style. Every Coordinator you face, regardless of region, will have different and unique battle styles, but it's still just the same as the Coordinators you beat before you got into the Grand Festival. There might be a certain individual that is a somewhat of a prodigy, but even for them it should be hard to beat a Top Coordinator, who has way more experience in his/her bag and has went through so much more than the new Coordinator.
    Not really, because there is no guarantee how contests will be completely same like they were in previous region., there is no guarantee how there wont be other strong coordinators from other regions which decided to go there and compete in(like Soledad example showed)making competition tougher, along with coordinators native to that region using different battling style and appeals than you had chance to experience before.

    Its similar to real life and sport for example. If handball or soccer team for instance win European, Asian etc championship you could say they competed against various teams which use their own strategy but that strategy is never that drastically different to jump of from general playing style players from that continent use.

    While globally speaking when entering world championship you can see clear difference in playing style between teams native to some continent, with methodology and playing style from South America soccer players being vastly different from European players.Basketball players from America using very different approach than Asian players etc.

    That was just the writers experimenting with how Contests should be funccioning in general, not to mention the difference in animation too. I'm not going to buy that. After all, in AG they were still completely new to the concept of Contests, and we could see how it developed from only being mere ''throwing disk and make your Pokémon catch it'' into a sparkly performance. From AG to DP, they went through the same development. It's not like the writers purposely made the Coordinators in AG being more ''battlecentric'' than the ones in DP.
    Im pretty sure by time we dive into Battle Frontier writers had enough time to improve themselves in contests, and contest battles were still notably different than they were in Sinnoh with coordinators battling style being more similar to how trainer battles.

    Just like we saw different battling style trainers used in Johto, Hoenn, Unova etc there is no reason to believe how coordinators native to some region don't have different way of battling and performing appeals too.

    Ash has always managed to do that, so why shouldn't she? Of course, it can always happen that she gets to face other Coordinators that've also ended up at second, third or fourth place, which might make it a bit more difficult. But I certainly can't see her being in a lower place than among the Top 8. Besides, I think she mainly came to Unova for learning new tricks for Round 1, which always has been her weakness, but even if she didn't come to Unova I still don't think she'd have much problem in the contests in Hoenn, considering how extremely little influence Unova has had on her by the looks of things.
    Logical fallacy. If you win championship once that doesn't mean you will always have big success being near top. There are countless examples where top Tennis, Chess and all kind of other sport players win championship just to later on drop very early in tournament whether its because they aren't in top shape, because someone lower ranked managed to outsmart them with their tactic, because other strong player manage to surpass them etc.
    Same is with pokemon world, having already examples where more advanced trainers dropped earlier than lower ranked ones. Gary example from Kanto league was especially memorable.

    Difference between higher and lower ranked players , or in this case coordinators is that they will have bigger percentage of success because of being more skilled, but this in no way guarantees they will always manage to win Grand Festival or be near top.

    Same goes for Dawn she was always focused more on appeals, than battling aspect of contests in Sinnoh with journey to Unova serving purpose to absorb knowledge trainers over there display trying to adjust her battling style when facing other coordinators in future.
    And battle against Iris is reflection of Dawn improvement as trainer, considering how her Mamoswine managed to actually hurt Dragonite causing problems for him while Langley Beartic who was specifically trained to defeat dragon types lost easily not even slowing down yellow beast.

    To Harley and Drew, yes. They are both two strong Coordinators who always has been pretty much equal to May, so having her struggle with them is only natural, as they all were on the same level to begin with.

    Besides, that reminds me! Wouldn't she have mentioned Soledad too if she actually was competing in the Johto Contests? She didn't do that. Doesn't that say anything to you?
    Harley and Drew were always May main rivals with who she had disagreements and most interaction, hence being reason why she mentioned them. With Solidad there was no reason to bring her up, being enough to show her in non speaking role when watching May competing in Wallace Cup still being treated as her rival.

    She was showed there, it was clearly said how she will go to Johto to continue traveling and entering contests after winning Kanto GF, so i think its very safe to say she was competing in Johto contests too.

    Haha. Tobias had legendaries. Besides, as I said, the will always be a certain few individuals that are on a completely different level from you. However, it's not like Ash had won a League before that.
    No, but he was showing gradual improvement with each passing region coming closer to it.

    The question is, can it really be further extended to being someting like ''The Greatest Coordinator in the World''? If you win all the Grand Festivals in every region, you still might encounter other Coordinators who've done the same thing, and you still won't be the best in the world. A Top Coordinator who trains at home, without traveling to other regions, could still probably beat a ''Master Coordinator'' if he/she had fought the same level of competetion in other Grand Festivals, but I doubt that he would've had a much bigger challenge than he had in his own region's GF. Forcing a Coordinator to win that many Grand Festivals seems highly unlikely to me, as it will take like one year per region, and even when he's done he still won't be the very best. What will he have achieved? The same kind of victory as he had in his last Grand Festival? How great.
    No one is forced to anything. Not all coordinators have same motivations and aspirations , not everyone want to become strongest or most recognized in world etc.
    But i believe Solidad is good example herself how even when you win GF and become top coordinator of that region that wont make you top coordinator in world, and how there exists way to become something more.
    Otherwise whats the point for her to travel to Johto and compete in contests to try winning another GF, if she already proved herself in Kanto?

    Going by that premise its very likely that more GF you wins your name will become more spread out and recognized in world, your skills will become sharper becoming stronger coordinator than you can by wining one GF and staying in that region quitting with travels.
    Who knows after May wins GF who knows maybe she follows Solidad footsteps too, wanting to become stronger and better than she already is.

    I thought her story was about becoming the very best? Y'know, the best, the almighty, the numero uno. Sure, she might want to make her mom proud as well, but I doubt she's doing all of this for the sake of her mother. She LOVES contests, why wouldn't it make sense to you for her to want to achieve an even higher ranking when she's truly dedicated to contests? It does to me.
    No but her mother left great deal of influence, which likely influenced Dawn decision in deciding to follow mother footsteps. And Johanna played very important role in Dawn journey through whole Sinnoh putting lot of pressure on her constantly living in shadow of parent, having to prove to everyone as top coordinator daughter until she qualified and reached finals of Grand Festival getting out of Johanna shadow.

    As for career im only working with what we have,and Dawn goal was established to be top coordinator never saying she wants to be best in world.

    Exactly. You just said it. If there actually was something like Contest Master, they should would've mentioned wanting to become one after they had won Grand Festival, right? I think it's nothing more than a more fancy term to make Wallace seem more surperior than he already is.
    I don't think writers deliberately made up this term to make Wallace look better than he really is, nor there exist any reason to believe this.

    Reason why they never mentioned this is because it wasn't important to storyline and never was intended to be.
    Its also likely because if such thing as contest master can be achieved it would imply becoming strongest coordinator in world achieving mastery both in appeals and battling, with Wallace being only one which managed to accomplish that.
    Which would explain all that glorification and popularity, since he is recognized as best in world.

    It wasn't established.
    Its self explanatory to me, not needing to be blatantly said. Wallace was definitely portrayed as strongest in world of contests out, being most famous and glorified coordinator out there with title of "contest master"being just one out of many other achievements, such as being Hoenn champion, among top water trainers in world(probably closest to water master we saw so far)etc.

    Just like winning every Grand Festival in other regions won't prove anything. What if there are others who have achieved the same thing? Then you will just be one of very few, right? Is the Contest Champion League too? Nah.
    Except those which manage to win several GF will surely be recognized as more successful and stronger than those which won only one GF, which could be one of reasons behind Solidad continuing to enter contests even after becoming top coordinator of Kanto. However possibility of there existing special event where top coordinators compete to determine who is best shouldn't be ruled out either.

    Wallace IS a special Coordinator. Because, unlike other Top Coordinators, he's also the strongest Trainer in his region. He has been a Gym Leader once, and is now also a Champion. That is the exact reason to why he gains so much attention. If there was something like Contest Master, then surely Wallace could not be the only one out there. Then other Contest Masters should've had the same type of competition in their honor, right?
    That doesn't make any sense to me.
    If only reason behind glorification and hosting competitions made in his honor is because he was champion, than we would surely have competitions carrying name of other champions from other region as well.

    Also like i explained before if "contest master"means best coordinator in world, since Wallace is only one which became that skilled explains why there are no other "coordinator masters"in world.
    Because of that and being legend among coordinators, it makes only sense that there exist special contests made in his honor.

    I'm ending this here, as this only feels like a huge waste of time by now. You haven't managed to convince me in the slightest that there is something higher than Top Coordinator, thus I'm quitting here. We will obviously not convince the other, so let's agree to disagree, shall we?
    I never intended to started debate in first place, only defending my opinion when it was challenged.
    Since we are starting to get of topic i agree how it would be best to end this too , so while i respect your view on this i disagree standing by what i said.

    From my part im done as well.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 2nd September 2012 at 06:03 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    They will never say that one of Ash's traveling partners achieved his goals before him! Because of that Dawn lost against Zoey even when she was departing! and we won't see a rematch!

    I would love to see her progress to the finals just she is equal to Dawn!
    Caseydia likes this.

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Yes, Solidad is very good, but in my opinion, she is too good. They way she battled with May in the Indigo Grand Festival in the final match was totally unfair. Her slobro and pigeot were too good and their evasive and counter attacks were unfair. I also dont understand why May was using munchlax. It was her most recent pokemon and very unreliable with metrenome and it has very little appeal contest wise. She could have used better pokemon and she could have improvised like when she was going against drew in the previous round. It also frustrated me how combusken evolved after her grand festival!!! and also its impossible to know if the grand festival has even taken place in the johto region. Plus Solidad cant win two grand festivals in a row. definately not harley cuz he isn't THAT good. Maybe May should win against the guy who won the hoenn grand festival (he had a claydol and milotic) in the final match and be a top coordinater. She deserves to win. BTW dawn totally should have lost to May in the Wallace cup. Makes absolutely no sense at all......

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    Only 70 new Pokemon? Hoopa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Isn't soledad also doing it? LolMay Ash had a better chance vs tobias.

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    I doubt she would have won, the main reason being that I can't see May achieving Top Coordinator status before Drew, nor could I see her defeating Solidad yet. I think if there ever were to be a special of some sort (which hahaha, as much as it pains me to say it's unlikely), either Drew or Solidad would take down May in the semifinals before facing each other in the final round.

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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Considering Solidad was shown to be far more advanced than most of the other coordinators, she probably didn't beat her. So no.

    I don't see why it matters now, it's not like we'll ever find out.
    I have to disagree.

    May used Munchlax and Combusken against Slowbro and Pidgeot, May was clearly at a HUGE disadvantage.

    With the proper combination, I do think May has a better chance a doing well against Solidad and possibly win.

    Edit: Just to mention we weren't going to find out what May did because she only had 3 ribbons.

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    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    I can't give a straight answer to this one...

    She mentioned to Ash, Dawn and Brock that she has 3 ribbons but Harley and Drew and stronger than ever and she can't seem to beat any of them. I mean not to mention the Kanto GF winner is there too...

    Let's see let us count the number of times Ash has lost to a certain rival without winning in an offical battle so many as ONE time but then turns around and beats him in a league battle (cough*Paul*). I mean we could chalk this up to blind faith that even though May possibly gets her other 2 ribbons without facing Drew, Harley OR Solidad until the GF that she beats them there too.

    I seriously don't think that if her and Solidad were to battle once again in the GF things would go the way they did in Kanto. I mean May might have a Blastoise by then or Delcatty. Not that it matters but I'm saying that May will be a more experience coordinator/trainer by then.

    However, I could also she her NOT winning because think about it this is her first journey out alone without brother Max, Ash or Brock for guidance. So, even if she lost the GF she proves that not only is she capable enough to make it on her own. She can get all 5 ribbons by herself and compete and possibly score a high ranking by the end of the competition.

    I know there is probably not (seriously not) going to be another Chronicle-like series where we get to catch up with old faces but if they did, they should really show the results of this competition.

    Like Dawn saying she'll get back with Ash and crew in Unova about the Johto Wallace Cup, I doubt this will happen...

    If they show that contest on TV (which I doubt) maybe May will show up at that contest and we'll get to find out how things went?

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    Even Rocky had a Montage AlphaMouse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could May have won the Johto Grand Festival?

    Any assumption that one character is better than the other is slightly faulted. Just because May lost to Dawn in one battle, which involved her least experienced Pokémon against Dawn's most experienced, with a type-disadvantage to boot, doesn't mean that May is worse than Dawn. Dawn lost by an extremely close margin to Zoey, with no clear type advantages. Trip has lost to Ash once, but that doesn't make him a worse trainer, given how many times he has beaten him, and I would say that normally Trip would beat Ash's Unova team anyday.

    May could well have won Johto, if her Pokémon have advanced as much as they had between AG and DP. She might have a Blastoise, Delcatty or even some new Powerful Pokémon. She was shown to have matured a lot since AG too, and I think that she may well have won it.

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